Swedish military Husqvarna m/1867-68 rolling blocks

[Dutchman]

This thread is naught without photos but it'll have to wait for photos until I can access the CD that they're on...

The Swedish military rolling blocks manufactured by HVA, aka Husqvarna, were known as the Model 1867-68. They're basically the same as the Remington m/1867 which in Sweden is known as the Remingtongevär. That's all they call it. (Remington rifle).

In the 35 or so that I got from Sweden and sold there was a couple of these HVA rifles. One was a sporter that was torn down and shipped as an action only. No barrel or stocks, just a complete action.

Surprise surprise... it had Vee threads for the barrel. Not square threads. First year production from ? to ? had Vee threads. Does anybody have detailed facts about this in Sweden? Apparently not. Is it commonly known? Apparently not.

Sweden began producing their own rolling block receivers and complete rifles in 1867. I've seen only ONE complete Carl Gustaf m/1867 rifle that was dated 1867. They seemed to have been produced up into 1877 as I can't recall offhand seeing a receiver dated later than 1877 though I could be wrong so take that as anecdotal.

I've seen only a couple Swedish Remingtons with walnut stocks. All Swedish-made rolling blocks used arctic birch. None used walnut. So any Swedish rolling block with walnut is wearing Remington USA wood. I've seen only a couple in 9 years.

Remington 1867 buttplates are very different than Swedish m/1867 buttplates.

Remington 1867 is on the left and is about universal for all Remington 1867 rolling blocks no matter what country they were made for. The Swedish m/1867 buttplate is on the right. The brass one in the center is for a m/1864-68-85 artillery carbine. These carbines were made from two earlier incarnations of rifle, namely the 1864 converted-from-percussion then the m/1864-1868 rolling block and then into the 1885 carbine. The furniture dates much older than 1885, usually 1864.

The m/1864-68 Swedish rolling block used recycled furniture and barrels. They may be seen with Remington-made receivers or Swedish-made. The lower band is unique and the position of the rear sight is much closer to the receiver than the m/1867. It was made in small numbers so its not seen as often as the m/1867. (Simpons's in Illinois has at least one of them that they don't know what model it is or why its unique).

I point all this out to illustrate that the Swedish rolling blocks are not 100% clones of the Remington and I'll get more into that with another post...

http://images47.fotki.com/v1497/photos/2/28344/1676633/85l-vi.jpg

http://images107.fotki.com/v541/photos/2/28344/1676633/85m-vi.jpg

Dutch

[bubba.50]

dutchman, you have been a great help to me and i'm sure many others as well with your knowledge of and willingness to share about swede rollers. cuppla years ago i bought what was supposed to be a 45-70 swede roller from buffalo brothers in arizona. i knew 45-70 wasn't a swede cal. but since it was sporterized thought maybe it had been re-barreled or something. found your site while searching the web to see just what kinda animal i had. then ordered some bertram 12.7 brass and found out it had been re-cut to a very deep 50 cal. now use 50-70 brass & dies and every thing's lovely i guess. after all this rambling my question-you seem to be of the opinion that re-chambering ruins these guns. is this just from collecting stand-point or am i missing something? don't really think my gun has much collector value but sure is fun to shoot. any way, keep up the good work and thanks for all you've taught me, bubba. p.s. my gun is husky marked 1871 & butt plate looks like one on the right in your pik.

[Dutchman]

-you seem to be of the opinion that re-chambering ruins these guns. is this just from collecting stand-point or am i missing something?


No, you're misunderstanding.

The as-issued military rifles should be kept as collectibles and not messed with. I feel this way about most all collectible firearms though there are many exceptions. If its an upper condition piece it should be protected in that condition.


The thing about rechambering the 12,7x44R rolling blocks is they really don't need to be rechambered as the .348 Winchester forms better in the 12,7mm chamber than it would in a .50-70 chamber due to the head diameter of the .50 Gov't being wider than the 12,7mm cartridge. Many shooters have had their rolling blocks rechambered to .50-70 to benefit the gunsmith who told them it would be easier for them to load or shoot being .50-70 and that's just not true.

When these rifles started coming into the US in about 2000 we had ZERO knowledge, practical knowledge, on handloading either the 12,7x44R or the 8x58R Danish as its used in the Swedish rolling block. The Danish military 8x58R is hotter than the Swedish rolling block 8x58R. There are two different loadings for this caliber for firearms of that same time period. Add to this confusion is "Cartridges of the World" which gives wholly incorrect data on the 8x58RD leading some FOOLS to believe its capable of providing performance exceeding the .30-06 because "Cartridges of the World" says so. Bullchit is the middle name of that one.

Anyway, I always integrate the information on the 8x58RD into any discussion of the 12,7x44R as they're siblings and are born of the same loins, as it were, in the guise of the Remington 1867 rolling block.

Some Americans ----- have a negative "thing" about metric caliber designation and especially have a negative "thing" if its an old single shot who's DNA originated in the USofA as the Remington rolling block. I suppose we could start calling it the .50-75-345 Swedish and many people would sleep better.

Saying that my rifle is a 12,7mm or saying its a fifty caliber...... We are an English nation (some of you) and we don't like metric. I don't particularly like metric but I've been shooting and handloading 6.5x55 since 1968 so the dislike kinda wore off long ago when I started hitting what I was aiming at with the Swedish Mauser. All of a sudden I was in love with metric rifle calibers.

Milsurp shooters are and always have been cheap ********, generally speaking. And I'm one of them. T'was yers truly who coined the term: crufflercarp. Bottom feeder.

The Swedish sporters in 2000 were the best bargain in the gun collecting/shooting world at the time and for a few years. They everybody started catching on to the condition of the 1889 sporters being really nice. Tight actions and just totally cool.

Except for those dang calibers! Gunsmiths have loved these rifles because they make good bucks on barrel changes and custom stocks. That $350 8x58RD sporter instantly became a $1,200 custom rolling block. (how some married guys got this kind of math past their wives would probably be worth writing a book about).

The 12,7x44R barrels aren't "heavy" enough to do much more than .50-70 Gov't or the original 12,7x44R caliber. Originally 37 inches long even the sporters could have 32" barrels. The one 12,7mm sporter I have now is such a rifle. They're pretty handy to carry but those "express" sights aren't very good. For moose at 75 yards I'd bet they're just fine.

The m/1867 12,7mm 3 band muskets rule the roost at the rifle range. Way more accurate than the m/1889 8mm rifles. The 8mm rifles are barrel band sensitive while the 12,7mm rifles don't seem to be bothered by 3 barrel bands.

Dutch

[Bob S]

Dutch:

I would love a 12.7 centerfire in shootable condition. I have a stash of 348 brass. Will you provide a tutorial on components, dies, moulds and loads? Also, any known sources for centerfire rifles? TIA.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Dutchman]

I hate sending someone to Simpson's in Illinois for Swedish rolling blocks because they show so many errors in their listings its pathetic... not to mention I think they're way overpriced..

http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_368_369&osCsid=9e08fd124b7f12364eefcc5b0d658e60

All I can suggest is if you find one that you're interested in then send me a private email with the link and the inventory number and I'll take a look at it.

Generally, the m/1867 military muskets aren't in near as good a condition as the m/1889 rifles so be prepared for that.

This one isn't bad...

CARL GUSTAFS STADS ROLLING BLOCK
$695.00
Simpson Ltd. Inventory Number - C5893

The m/1867 rifles that have been "sporterized" by Vapendepoten are pretty well used on the exterior but they can still be tight and have good bores. These rifles never saw a jacketed bullet so they don't really wear out but they can be found with blackpowder pitting. The only 12,7mm rifle I have now is one of these. Isn't pretty but tight action.

Most of the 12,7mm rifles will be already converted to centerfire as they've been civilian owned for 80+ years. Swedes like to reload. Can't reload rimfire. But you should ask the seller to insure it has a centerfire firing pin.

The tightness of a rolling block action is something that you have to see and feel. I got one from Sweden that was so bad I couldn't sell it as it was. I had to send it to a gunsmith who bushed the breechblock. It was a rather rare school rifle. The repair cost only $50 at the time. I have no idea how it got that way but it was about 1/8" to 3/16" front-to-back play in the breechblock.

But side-to-side breechblock and hammer play can be corrected with shims. I'm talking .010" - .015" - .020" at most. You can feel it. Spreading of the receiver. Doesn't sound good and its not but some are like this and the buyer should be aware.

Front-to-back breechblock play is BAD NEWS. Excessive headspace. There are degrees of this "play". The m/1867 rifles are worse in this regard as they're much older and have, some times, been fired much more than the m/1889 rifles.

Many sellers of these rifles will not really know about this issue of excessive play in the breechblock and hammer. This is what's better about in-person purchasing of such a rifle.

Many of Simpson's will say "finish turning to patina" or "brown patina". Simpson's doesn't know that the m/1867 military rifles came from the factory with browned barrels. They're not turning a patina.. they started out in life that way.

This is a nice rifle but dang!! $1,000 Nine years ago it was $450. I sold mine for $650 in 2006.

SWEDISH ROLLING BLOCK
$995.00
Simpson Ltd. Inventory Number - C6720

The ratio of available models is kinda like this:

1- most common 1889 sporters
2- 1867 sporters
3- 1889 military configuration
4- 1867 military configuration
5- 1885 artillery carbines (has a cleaning rod)
6- 1870 cavalry carbines are much fewer/harder to find.
There are other models besides these. Simpson's had a couple of the earlier rolling blocks built from percussion rifles and they don't know the difference.

The stream of Swedish rolling block rifles isn't endless. Its going to end abruptly. I think its already past the time to get a good deal but if you have a spare $1,000 laying around....

This is a civilian sporter 1867 as it still has 2 barrel bands. This rifle also has a Remington receiver and a Remington buttstock and buttplate. Not common but also not a big deal. Just informational. Overall appearance is pretty good but that's just from the photos.

SWEDISH ROLLING BLOCK
$395.00
Simpson Ltd. Inventory Number - C7158

Another nice looking one but for $900 it should make you breakfast in the morning.

SWEDISH ROLLING BLOCK
$895.00
Simpson Ltd. Inventory Number - C6735

Don't worry about a missing cleaning rod on a 1867 rifle. They're about universal for that model and there are reproduction rods made.

I use Lyman .50-70 dies. No big deal. Bullets are .515" but some run .512". Soft lead is better but I've shot hard cast 350 gr and 450 gr. The barrels are 6 groove conventional sharp edged rifling. There's a Lee custom mold in .515" and another one at .518" for the Smith carbine. I can point you to the source. I think they're both 350 grain. While you can shoot 450 gr slugs they do tend to travel a little slower.. 1,200 fps or so with 70 grains Ffg. They kick a little more, too, in a 7 pound sporter. Even more in a 6 pound artillery carbine with 18" barrel. Fun though.

Its an easy cartridge to load for. Case length may take a little fine tuning. First time loaded .348 brass can have a buldge and need to be ironed out in the sizing die after seating the bullet but it doesn't have to be done after firing.

I use Buffalo Arms vegetable wads over the powder. And I made a bronze compression plug that goes on the end of the Lyman M die stem. With 70 and 75 grains of Ffg you have to crunch that load down pretty good to get the bullet seated. You can load 60 grains just as well. Pyrodex, too. I've done some Pyrodex RS. If I was going to do a lot of blackpowder shooting I'd follow the Pat Wolf method of opening up the primer pocket to a larger size. And always use magnum large rifle primers with BP. Pat Wolf's book on loading for the 1873 Trapdoor is one of the best books on handloading blackpowder I've ever read. What a great work it is, very enjoyable to read. I highly recommend it.

I've loaded mild Unique loads and XMP5744 to equal the blackpowder velocity per chronography. Rounded primers and nice loads. The load with Unique, I think, was around 1,000 fps and will bang the gong all day long at 100 yards. Its a girly load.

There are small but important factors like the breechblock play that affect the rolling block, along with the safety factor, that I just now have two, a 8mm sporter with beautiful custom very flashy fiddleback walnut and a Marble's tang sight and a well worn 12,7mm sporter. I love my Mausers too much.

These were mine:

m/1867-74

http://images38.fotki.com/v1218/photos/2/28344/157842/74a-vi.jpg

m/1889 - this sucker was gorgeous.

http://images38.fotki.com/v1212/photos/2/28344/157842/89a-vi.jpg

m/1885 artillery carbine with unit disc for pontoon bridge engineers.

http://images39.fotki.com/v1227/photos/2/28344/157842/car85a-vi.jpg

http://images50.fotki.com/v1513/photos/2/28344/5902270/musketry_school_18912b-vi.jpg


Dutch

[13Echo]

I bought a rifle from Simpson's about 3 years ago. My object was to get a good action so I ignored the collectable rifles and was not bothered by bore or wood condition. I ended up with a sporterized '89 with a sewer pipe barrel but a really nice, tight action for $295. It's now a really beautiful .38-50 mid range target rifle by Steve Durren. There are still some good doner rifles there but the price has gone up.

Jerry Liles

[bubba.50]

dutchman, thanks for the reply. it is about what i thought as i also don't believe in "improving" fine old military guns even if they're not valuable antiques. i think it takes their heritage away. have two other abused rollers. one has been sand blasted-even the wood. it's as pretty as it sounds. the other is a remington in reformado cal. only the bbl. has been beaded on this one and then the whole thing black finished. parkerized i think. even at that, i wish i could find the wood to put one or both back as close to original as possible so if anyone knows of any wood available please let me know. guess that's enough drivel for now. bubba.

[bubba.50]

p.s. if your experience with simpson's is like mine, pack a lunch before you log on as it takes forever for images to load. and i agree that their descriptions don't always match the gun shown. but still about the cheapest way to get a roller i guess. as 13echo says-a cheap way to get an action if that's about all you want.

[yarro]

I make the 12.7 brass out of .50 Alaskan cases that I cut down and ream the neck area to thin the brass so a bullet will seat without bulging the case. They compare favorably to the original cases my Swedish friends gave me, but with slightly less case capacity due to the thicker head and case walls. I then reload with .50-70 dies.

-yarro

[bubba.50]

since my chamber is over stock dimension, i use 50-70 starline. no re-sizing needed and due to deep chamber never have to trim. just fire, clean, compress powder, and hand seat boolits. works for me. have used cases over 1/2 dozen times with no noticable change. will probably have to add a wad or a little more powder on next loading to keepboolit at right position in case mouth. would like to get up to 70gr. soon anyway. bubba.

[Andy_P]

...Sweden began producing their own rolling block receivers and complete rifles in 1867. I've seen only ONE complete Carl Gustaf m/1867 rifle that was dated 1867. They seemed to have been produced up into 1877 as I can't recall offhand seeing a receiver dated later than 1877 though I could be wrong so take that as anecdotal.

I've seen only a couple Swedish Remingtons with walnut stocks. All Swedish-made rolling blocks used arctic birch. None used walnut. So any Swedish rolling block with walnut is wearing Remington USA wood. I've seen only a couple in 9 years....

Dutch

Dutch,

A special case perhaps, but I have one of those Swedish Rolling blocks chambered in 10.15x61R Jarmann. It is has a Carl Gustaf receiver dated 1867 and walnut stocks. Is that normal for that particular firearm?

I have George Layman's book, but see no mention of it. Is this firearm not yet documented?

[Dutchman]

The rolling blocks chambered in the Jarmann cartridge were trials rifles only. They generally follow a pattern using the very early receivers with a more pronounced chamfered edge on top of the receiver. Walnut has been noted on others.

Layman's book, at least the one I have, is woefully inadequate concerning Swedish rolling blocks mostly because Swedish rolling blocks didn't start showing up in the U.S. until 1999-2000 or thereabouts. That's when I got my first batch. I noted a couple factual errors in Layman's book, too, but I'd tend to be forgiving of his errors due to the scarcity of information at the time his book was published. Swedish rolling blocks are still an emerging area of collecting and there are many holes in our knowledge of them.

There have been several of these rifles like yours shown in the Swedish military firearms forum at www.gunboards.com. Here is one of them:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=1065

Dutch

[Andy_P]

Dutch,

Very interesting and useful information - thanks. Mine did have more breechblock side-to-side play than I liked and a couple of thin shims tightened it right up.

A question about breechblocks:

Some have a firing pin retainer that goes all the way through the breechblock and engages the firing pin horizontally (like the one I have in the Jarmann chambering), but my others have a firing pin retainer that only goes halfway through and engages the firing pin vertically.

Assuming that my explanation makes sense to you, is there a general "rule" about how this is done?

[Dutchman]

Since the Swedish government didn't do the centerfire conversions there was no uniformity in how it was done. Civilians had local gunsmiths do the job or some may have been done by Vapendepoten when they were chopped and sold as sporters.

Dutch

[Mk42gunner]

Dutch,

It has been a few weeks since I looked at the Simpsons' website, but I have been mulling this question since then. If a person is buying one of the Swedish Rolling Blocks to get an action to build a rifle on why couldn't (or shouldn't), he get a shotgun for the base action, since they were less expensive when I looked?


Robert

[Dutchman]

The converted Swedish shotguns I've seen/had used a completely different breechblock than the rifles. Its a large face breechblock to utilize the 16 gauge shell size (the ones I've seen/had). I realize there are some of these shotgun conversions being advertised as being a different/smaller shotshell. I can't comment as I have no experience with those.

If you decide on this option make sure beforehand on the breechblock issue.

As an aside, one of my friends in Ohio bought a Husqvarna rolling block shotgun in 16 gauge. It was originally built as a shotgun. It was very nice handling. And the breechblock was different than a rifle. I had a box of old paper high-base 16 ga shells and gave them to him to shoot, or try to shoot as they were quite old. But so far they've all fired.

Dutch

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks Dutch,

Never having seen a rolling block shotgun I had no idea; but if you don't ask questions, you'll never learn.


Robert