Starting trouble

[Jim]

Had a conversation with a friend the other day about the highs and lows of choosing fast, light bullets vs. slow & heavy for hunting. Jacketed or cast, I'd REALLY like to get some objective feedback from this group on this subject.

What say the court?

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
LEAD boolits Are what I care to play with. An old Michigan hunter told me to use enough grains of boolit to match (near) the weight of the critter at lead boolit velocity. Thus a 200 pound deer should be smacked with or about a 200 grain boolit. Now I am sure he was OK with a 180 grainer out of his 30-30... This was just a simple guideline so us young fellers were not trying to pop "his" deer with 105 grain pills.
If 200 grains was not enough move up to a bigger bore than caliber .30... 38-55 can handle 300 grains and of course 45-70 easily launches 500 grains which was the biggest Black Bear ever around.
So even under 1500 fps there is nothing I would fear with my Cast boolits. I have .243 Win up to 45-70 and have little expectation of seeing a moose where I reside or the river bottoms where I tend to lurk about even if I am hauling my favorite 69 flinter about stuffed with swam shot hoping for a close encounter with the BIG cat that is roaming about my bend in the North Fork River.
Mike.. now in Illinois

[stubshaft]

Last time I checked there were very, very few PH and guides that used "fast and light" calibers. Don't get me wrong I have been enamored with both ends of the spectrum. I have followed Ackley and shot numerous heads of game with .17cal bullets, and they are definitely lethal within certain parameters. BUT, if I were to encounter a situation that was not within my control I would want 400 - 500grs. of lead going toward my target. Heck, I've shot hogs with my .458 just because...

[MT Gianni]

Light and fast can be quick killers. They usually leave blood shot meat and can suffer from a lack of penetration. { I like 2 holes on game}. Heavy and slow in the j-words can punch through with no expansion occasionally resulting in a lost animal. In ja-ted ammo, the middle choice is correct with the right blend of speed and punch. With cast we use bullet meplate or minimal expansion and enough punch to hopefully make two holes. Speed is less of an issue rather than buildiing the inertia to penetrate. Bullet weight and hardness have an effect on penetration and weight effects straight penetration. For cast shooters medium to heavy have an advantage. Their disadvantage is trajectory and the need to be closer. Those who shoot J-word bulets only may have a tough time understanding this.

[Junior1942]

Like MT Gianni, I like two holes in game. Then there's a physical thing called "dwell time." A big & slow bullet has more time inside the animal's body in which to release energy. Besides, the older I get the more I agree with Elmer Keith.

[leadeye]

Big and slow works for me. I've always put deer down that way, broken shoulder, mortal hit and two holes. It's a good thing too as I am a poor tracker.:-D

[winelover]

I've used both here in Michigan on large whitetails. Cast boolits in 44 Mag (revolver & carbine) and Dead is Dead! Just be prepared to do some tracking if shot behind the shoulder while taking out both lungs! They don't just fall over as a rule!! Bullet meplat shape is over-rated. I've had the same results using SWC's, RNFP'S or WFN's. Expect to track em as you would an arrow killed deer and sometimes further---65 to 200 yds. I like my venison and I purposely aim behind the shoulder for minimal meat damage.

Jacketed rifle bullets are a whole different ball game. Bullet selection is the key. For deer any of the fast opening .308 like Nostler BT's or Hornady SST's in 150 -165 grs. is my preference for deer shot behind the shoulder. Some do go down right away and most will be recovered inside of 100 yds.

I cast my own for handguns and carbines, because it allows for more practice at a reduced cost. However, jacketed bullets are the CHEAPEST part of the HUNT, if you opt for them even if you don't reload!


Winelover---"Wine is constant proof that God loves us & wants to see us happy"

[Throwback]

It depends. All things are never equal. A .30-06 for example will drop deer very quickly with 150-grain bullets, over a wide range of impact velocities. With a proper bullet like a Barnes or a Partition you will nearly always get two holes. I agree with Junior - I like two holes in what I shoot. There are some who shoot deer with fast traveling-fast expanding bullets like Nosler Ballistic Tips. These will drop deer right there with a good shot and perfect profile presentations but I will never use the GD bullet. It causes appalling damage to valuable meat. So, a well constructed 150 is fine on medium game at high velocity. If I am "saddled" with a slow gun, or if I am after big game I like a heavier bullet.

With cast bullets because we are limited to slow speeds, there is a decided advantage to the heavier projectiles. If you hunt heavier critters there is likewise an advantage to heavier or at least deeper penetrating bullets. There is far less margin for error with a light weight/lighter constructed bullet. (Try hunting Cape Buffalo with a .257 Weatherby Magnum and see what pissed off really looks like!)

[runfiverun]

even before i thought of hunting with cast i liked 2 holes, some might all be amazed to learn that slowing down the jacketed stuff works too.
a 139 to 150 hornady from a 7 mauser at between 2700 and 2850 is an awesome killer on deer elk and even moose and no fancy bullet is required either.
this same concept seems to work just fine for the 30-06 etc too.
maybe thats why the 30/30 got some sort of reputation [just fast enough to work].

[superior]

I think the Buffalo hunters of the old west really knew something about slow heavy boolits.
Their results cannot be disputed.

[6.5 mike]

I think superior has a good point. The 30-06 is, & always will be a great all round load.
But when the 35 whelen came along, with the ability to use a heaver bullet, things changed. It went back to med velo, & large dia bullet. It's track record speaks for It's self. Just my .02.

[Onlymenotu]

I've always liked sheer power over speed, it might not get there fast but when it does there is no stopping it

when ever this topic comes up * and it always does* I always think back to 20 + years ago to I guy I know who was a weight lifter, he's list in the state record book for picking up 400 lbs * drug free * anyway He got into shooting a bow and had a custom bow built it had a 400 lbs pull 200 lbs let off overdraw,sights,scopes. You know all usual bells and whistles, he shot the smallest broadhead 125grn *if my remeber correctly* I know it was 7/8's dia * the min required by state law* and where the opening type witch had a rubberband that held razors closed till impact witch at that time they would open ... this thing was super fast he told me on time the fps * but I forgot*
Anway one night I called him to bs with him...he told me he had just shot Another nice buck with it and he was going back out to track it....he knew it was a realy good shot and this deer was going to be his.... he had made several other GOOD shots before... but some how the deer always managed to get away... he said this time there is a Little bit of blood on the arrow and a few drops of blood on the ground... so he had something to track so I told him ok I'll let you go.... Good luck with you deer tracking,, and hung up the phone.

Called he back a few days later to see IF he had claimed his prize to witch he replyed yes and told me the rest of the story.... They had went back found the blood trail witch hardly be called a blood trail...... more like a speck of blood here and a speck of blood there and ended up track the buck for like 150 yards before they finaly found it.... again there was very very little blood sign even at the point where they found the dead buck * I bet at this point in time your thinking poor shot- shot placement... but aww my friends it was not read on* when they check the buck for entrance and exit wounds they found 2 very small wounds,,,,, perfect little 7/8's holes and round and a pretty as could be,,,, but with very very little blood.... when they gutted the deer they took the heart out and sure enuff a perfect shot he said it could not have been more centered if you painted a bullseye on it.... said unless you squeezed the heart looked perfect but when you squeezed the heart there was a perfect scalpel cut in the heart but it was only open-exposed when the heart was squeezed so the buck bleed very little...only with the heartbeat and the arrow was so fast it had little shock power behind it...... hence the long track on this one,,,, and the other lost animals

I've always said shock it is where it's at....cut your finger off with a razor sharp ax with a full swing..... or bash it off with a 16 lbs maul... and see witch one your going to notice 1st... anybody care to guess?

Big & slow is where it's at

[Nrut]

They both work...
It depends on your preference and how and to what you apply it...

[badgeredd]

I've always been fond of heavy projectiles. Before I started casting I would usually get the heaviest or next to the heaviest bullet I could buy. It does slow down and you do have to be a better hunter. If you know your gun and its cartridge, it is not a problem. Since cast boolits generally will be slower, I'd opt for bigger and heavier. Energy transfer to the hunted is what it is about and as Junior says TWO holes from ONE boolit is best. BTW 35 caliber was my favorite caliber before cast boolits!

My opinion. :D

Edd

[Jim]

Very good responses. Thank you all.

[TREERAT]

I beleive junior has it right!

I have been saying the same thing for years ( dwell time )!

dwell time can be acheived by either a slow heavy OR fast and explosive, but with the slow heavy you get the extra hole and less meat destruction.

you can get the same results with a heavy jacket bullit if you will slow it down to around 2000 fps or under.

the only thing a jacket does for you in killing is give you a flatter trajectory when pushed faster, then you have diminishing results unless you use a bullit desinged to work at impact velocity.

[dk17hmr]

Im not much of a rifle hunter, dont get me wrong I love hunting but ussally with a stick pusher. The two deer I have shot with my centerfire rifles were "light" calibers. One was with my 25-06 the other with my 6.8 SPC. Both bullets were between 110-117gr travelling between 2700-2900 fps. Both of the deer were down and done kicking within 30 seconds of the shot.

All the deer I have shot with a muzzloader, except for one that I spine shot, all ran out of sight. Every deer I have ever shot with a firearm has had 2 holes, even when shot with varmint bullets.

I dont understand why people say that a certain bullet ruins meat. Dont shoot them in the meat and you are fine. In the head/neck or a bit behind the front shoulder and you have dead deer.

[Blammer]

If I take the one grain per pound of animal hunting I'd be using a 100 gr 30 cal boolit for the deer around here.. :)

[Onlymenotu]

I dont understand why people say that a certain bullet ruins meat. Dont shoot them in the meat and you are fine. In the head/neck or a bit behind the front shoulder and you have dead deer.

Yea a lot of guys will blast right through both front shoulders to get that drop right there on the spot,,,,, myself it's a head shot/neckshot,,,,,, or right through the boiler room shot i try to damage as little meat as posable......* another reason I like a cast boolit - eat right up to the hole*

[c3d4b2]

This was studied by the Thompson-LaGarde board (1904) and by General Hatcher. I have heard some critisims regarding the Thompson-LaGarde board not being a controlled scientific study.

There is a book that reviews these studies along with metallic cartridge history. The name of the book is "Mermelstein's Guide To Metallic Cartridge Evolution" by Robert Mermelstein (ISBN 0-9722544-2-0).

[Jim]

Not being much of a hunter and having NEVER hunted with CBs, I must admit ignorance. It seems to me, though, that if the animal is mechanically disabled, it won't run because it can't run. Most of the hunters I've talked with are heart shooters. The few that are accurate neck shooters ALL tell me that if you cut the communications between the computer and the drive train, they fall down where they're standing. A few of those neck shooters even said they're big proponents of large bullets, fast or slow. Their theory is, hit that spine just ahead of the shoulders with a sledge hammer and the game is over on the spot. No running, no trailing, just bring the truck.

[leadman]

I've shot elk with 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and had dramatic kills, but always ended up with blood shot meat as far as 2 feet away from the entry and exit wounds. Shot one elk at 272 yards with a 150gr. 7mm Nosler BT that started over 3300fps from an Encore ProHunter (28" barrel). Elk ran 70 yards or so but again both front shoulders were ruined even though it was hit low in the chest behind the front leg.
Dhot several elk with my 7.65x53 Arg. Mauser with 180 gr. roundnose. Had a hard time finding the entry hole in the first one. Hit the spine at 175 yards, fell, never moved. Another I hit from the side at the rear of the liver and ranged thru to end up under the skin of the opposite shoulder blade. Went maybe 50 yards, no bloodshot meat.
Give me heavier bullet at around 2,500 to 1,800 fps.

[Onlymenotu]

Jim, Dead is Dead no matter if you shut the brain down, or take the air out of the lungs, pump the blood out all over the ground, spine shoot em/ or break both shoulders where they can't run.
It's basicly up the killer- shooter deside what vehicle to deliver the payload in, fast and flat or big and slow it's all in ones personal preferances.

About 5 years ago I bought a inline muzzleloader to extrend my deer hunting time/ chances have worked up a load of 85 grns of tripple 7,sabot and a lee C452-300-RF cast out of pure soft lead.
I've killed deer from 10 yards to 110 yards with it.... 2 a year for the last 5 years all of them were one shot kills all but one were clean pass throughts holes in...... holes out the one exception was a big doe this last season witch I took 65 yard headshot witch she had just broke over a ridge and was headed down slope of coming straight toward me the shot caught her high up on the skull through the brain pan, out the skull reentering the neck right behind the skull following the spine down into the chest cavity through the lungs through the rips and end upjust under the skin on the exit side... the slug had mushroomed out to about the size of a nickle all the way back to the last driving band and where the gas check mounts

She never took a step, the 2 killed at 100 yards clean pass throughs heart and lungs,,,, blood trail a blind man could have followed...blood 3 foot high on every tree it ran by but all in all most of the kills have been headshots and most of the deer have been right around the 100 lbs mark as I'm a meat hunter not a trophy hunter....and IF you wait long enuff the young/ dumb ones will walk with headshot range, I've notice in my butchering that the death came so quick that along the loins or backstraps that the blood pools and there are like small blood drops scattered.... through out the loin where the blood had no where to go when the instant shutdown occured....the guys I hunt with started calling me a headhunter in referance to the headshots,,,,, rather than the usual trophy hunters

They all still hunt with shotguns* centerfire rifles are not allowed* because they want the 3 shots,,,, I said but guys the proof is in the pudding, I kill as many as you guys do * and almost always with less shots* as some times they may have 2 shots in they're deer

In the end its about knowing your gun and the ammo- load and shot placement and pratice... small and fast will kill'em just as dead as big and slow the key is hitting the mark

[GLynn41]

I mostly handgun hunt-- --so I have taken deer with a .41 /170 -- 220 K and LWNGCs and SSK TCs etc-- the one that ran the farthest was the 170 --although I do not know how as the blood trail from a chest hit was- about a foot wide in places for 107 steps with a heart shot-- the shortest (not counting a spine hit) was the 255LWNGC 4-5 of my steps- so far my handguns have all done fine--all have been with some form of the .41- I took my first handgun deer in 1980 - for me after using jhps or cast-- it is my 255LWNGC --with a.400 nose and a 330 meplat- from Dan at MM-- I shoot it in my MZ loader with a sabot- my 41/445 TC and all my 6 guns- the only thing currently I might change would be the powder charge- this bullet -boolit has made about 1.5" in and out holes at about 40 steps- two holes and the angle does not matter-

[Throwback]

I've shot elk with 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and had dramatic kills, but always ended up with blood shot meat as far as 2 feet away from the entry and exit wounds. Shot one elk at 272 yards with a 150gr. 7mm Nosler BT that started over 3300fps from an Encore ProHunter (28" barrel). Elk ran 70 yards or so but again both front shoulders were ruined even though it was hit low in the chest behind the front leg.
Dhot several elk with my 7.65x53 Arg. Mauser with 180 gr. roundnose. Had a hard time finding the entry hole in the first one. Hit the spine at 175 yards, fell, never moved. Another I hit from the side at the rear of the liver and ranged thru to end up under the skin of the opposite shoulder blade. Went maybe 50 yards, no bloodshot meat.
Give me heavier bullet at around 2,500 to 1,800 fps.

My point exactly. And for those who feel that it is a matter of not shooting them in the meat - you don't always have that choice, especially in the big woods. If you still hunt or stalk as opposed to a stand on a ranch like in all the hunting videos you cannot count on perfect profile presentations. You may need to shoot at an angle or at a running deer or elk or bear.

And of neck /head shots; I will only take one under perfect conditions when absolutely necessary. Way too much room for error.

[matm0702]

I love my .30 cal rifles but I'd give my vote to a 12ga slug. Took a spike late last season.
Hit behind the right shoulder and exited behind the left leaving a golf ball size holeat 20 yards. He ran 25 yards jumping the ditch I used for concealment and slammed into the enbankment on the other side. He bled out on in the field 10 yards past the enbankment. I hope to get as lethal a performance out of my .35 Rem and 30-30.

Mike

[atr]

When I first started I was running everything on the light side and fast....over the years Ive switched to a little heavier and slower. I tend to develop my loads not so much based on maximum fps but on what is the most accurate. I also think the type of hunting has to be a factor in developing your load. If I am out where the shooting is long range open then I open up the fps so my boolit will shoot flatter....if im in the thickets then heavy slower is my choice.

[corvette8n]

I think 45 cal. 500 grains at 4000fps should be enough energy on both ends lol[smilie=1:

[shdwlkr]

Now blammer you know you wouldn't go out with less then a 150 grain bullet for deer and if it is a bolt action you are using I bet you have 200 grains or better coming out that barrel.
Since I am moving towards lead bullets more because I can then anything else I like to be on the heavy side with my bullets. In my 32-20 I load 115 grains, In my 357mag I will be using 158-170 grains, 30-30 I like 165 grains, in my 375 winchester I like 249 and 268 grains, in my 45-70 I like 340-430 grains and in my 270 I like 135-140 jacketed right now and will switch to 135 lead when I can get a mold in that grain size.
Light bullets remind me of the 55 grain bullet in the 5.56mm and anything larger then a woodchuck or coyote just didn't react the way I wanted fast enough for me. I like heavy bullets and have fired 70 grainers in my 222, but in lead I am at 50-55 grains as that is the largest lead mold I have found so far.
Speed of the bullet is only one element in the shooting game. You also have to look at what happens when it hits the target or game and no they are not the same. I also shoot black powder and have learned that speed isn't all that important to take game.

[303Guy]

Very interesting thread. I'm reading it because I plan on hunting with cast.

On Cape buffalo, my Dad hunted them with a 35 Remington. He always went for heart shots. Once he shot one which was a through and through - the bullet broke the shoulder of another buff behind! He had to finish it off. What was the ballistics for the old 35 Rem? 200gr at 2000fps? That particular bullet did not hit bone in the first animal.

I have alway prefered heavy bullets - not due to some vast experience but because it seems to make sense to me and from what I have heard from those with experience. I will not be facing any dangerous African or any other game (unless a large feral boar with an attitude can be considered dangerous).

Since this thread is about heavy boolits, would anyone care to comment on the suitabilty of this particular boolit? It's a hollow point (shallow). It kills turkey dead! Big hole going in, bullet sized hole going out. Go figure! It does more damage to a turkey than a 25cal 85gr ballistic tip at over 2900fps!


Before (220gr WW air cooled 303 Brit).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-357F_edited.jpg

After firing into wet rags. (Velocity maybe 1900fps?)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-602F_edited.jpg

[EOD3]

I have never trusted the Foot Pounds Energy math they use to make light/fast bullets "look" more effective. Using velocity squared seems to be adding something to the equation that doesn't exist.

In any case, FPE has always struck me as a 2 dimensional solution to a 3 dimensional question. I guess it's alright if you calculate it on the far side of the game where the big heavy bullet came out. :mrgreen: