another ruger gone wrong....

[bobke]

okay, here's my tale of ruger woes with a 5.5 ss bisley. brand new gun, did the normal tune up, packed up a bunch of proven loads to the range i go and found as many of you have, shooting far off center-all over the map more accurately. tight chambers reamed .4525 without much result/improvement. more loading, more options, to no avail. restriction in front of the cone caused excessive leading that could not be improved with mild lapping. after sticking a range rod down the tube, found three chambers wouldn't rotate up to proper center. bad cylinder, bad barrel, back to ruger.

very courteous, prepaid shipping back to factory. 6-7 weeks later, back in my hands, back to the range. some definite improvements...but. tight but even cylinder that did rod up properly, but did need to be reamed .4525. barrel still has minor restriction in front of forcing cone, but better internal finish. cylinder gap now a very generous .009. .009!! fresh from the factory. better yet, barrel wasn't turned up square to rear sight(or perfectly perpendicular, depending on how you look at it), so still shooting way off target. way off. and requested new, higher front sight was installed with a center punch, not the proper roll pin punch, so left a real nice divot in front sight base. all this and still not fixed. probably never fired on a target, except to check if it'd go bang. maybe.

it's been delivered to alex hamiltion at 10ring in san antone for a turn in on the barrel, proper setting of front/rear sights and an .003 gap, which i'll cut a fresh cone w/11d cutter til i've hit a sweet spot with heavy cast bullets at moderate velocities-likely around 900-1050fps. plenty for my purposes in texas. i'm certain it will be right this time around.

gotta say, i'm about done with the truck mechanics in ruger's reassembly dept. they are crude at best, and not examples of quality control specialists, which should be the case unless they're just trying to make work and stay busy fixing their own problems. i've been a loyal ruger owner since the early 70's and have had some exemplary samples of their work over the years, but this is embarrassing in my mind. i'd like to see them return that loyalty with fine mechanical fitting and accuracy. i can live without all the aesthetics, as they don't improve how well it'll shoot-that's my primary interest. these aren't trailer queens, they're supposed to be shooters.

they'll get another chance, but i won't buy one again without taking a range rod, some presized bullets to check throat diameter and a feeler gauge and going over carefully before throwing my hard earned down for one.

[bradh]

BOBKE, thank you very much for this report!

[Snyd]

Wow, unbelievable. I guess I got lucky with my new 45 Redhawk. I know a guy here locally who is waiting on a new 45 bisley blackhawk. It'll be interesting to see how it shoots.

[longhorn47]

come on its a Ruger last one I had I had to get ride of and it was new too

[dubber123]

Should have seen the Single Six Bisley I bought new.... Or the 10-22 full stock, or the MKII 5-1/2" Bull bbl.....

[bobthenailer]

i also had bad luck with ruger ! on 2 occasions. both were rifles in 22 hornet . the first was a #3 head space problems , but the rifle was accurate, the action woud close on a no go guage , there repair nothing wrong! on the 2ed rifle a m77 hornet sent it back 3 times for accuracy problems , repairs done , new stock , recrowned the barrel with a chamerfing tool ,at least thats what i think! and the 3ed time i cant remember ! but the best it would do was 1 inch at 50 yards useing various bullets powders and useing bussines cards between the stock and barrel . and 2 different proven leupold scopes! after a year and at least 300 rounds fired i surrendered and traded it . no more rugers for me ever !!!!!

[Maven]

Well my experience with Ruger and Ruger service is very different. I own 3 revolvers, 1 semi-auto pistol (more about it later) and a #1 rifle. None of the revolvers has ever been a problem. The rifle was repaired and re-blued and I was completely satisfied with the repair. The semi-auto pistol is a slightly different story. To wit, it is a Ruger Mk. II Gov't Model .22cal., which I've owned since ~1991. Lately accuracy has been a problem: It used to be a tack driver. By chance, I happened to grip the bbl. with my left hand while holding it in my right and discovered that it would move side to side by ~1/16". No wonder I couldn't get it zeroed! I shipped it to them on Apr. 2 and just got it back yesterday with the problem solved or so I think. You see I shipped it to them minus the grips (but not the 4 bolts that retain them) as I don't use the ones that came with it, but rather, a Hogue grip, which fits my hand perfectly. Guess which 4 bolts were missing when I opened the box? Also, anyone care to guess how long it took for me to telephone Ruger about it? All in all, I've had few problems with their products or service.

[runfiverun]

hmm i just got one of their bisley hunters in 41 mag the throats are 411 and the bbl is 410.
the gap is closer to .003 and the metal actually lines up nicely even with the wood.
the ruger hawkeye i bought last fall has a dead on bbl and is one of the most accurate cast rifles i have.
maybe they are feeling the rush right now too seems bout NOBODY can manufacture things fast enough to make anyything well right now.

[jack19512]

I'm getting a little out of heart with Ruger myself. I am on my second brand new Ruger 44 mag returned because of accuracy problems. Someone at Ruger just isn't listening or they just don't care. :cry:

[bobke]

any of you all in the manufacturing business? hot topic in our business of late has been lean six sigma, a measure of how many errors per million possible opportunities your operation produces throughout the manufacturing process. toyota/lexus are very close to 6 sigma, as are other high quality products you've used daily. minimizing the total potential for error is the whole game, from order entry to shipment to final destination.

any one care to take a swag at where ruger is? i don't know, but if what we see here and the fact they don't publicize the number would have me believing they're less than a 3. that's pretty sorry, speaking as a long time purchasing director and someone interested in seeing guns, and manufacturing in general, continuing to be produced stateside. we need to support manufacturing in this country. but...ruger challenges my desire to do so.

i accept that rugers generally require disassembly, deburring and a run through with emery paper, crocus cloth and a set of stones. i actually enjoy doing it and learning the gun from the get go. i perform some measurements, adjust what i see needs attention and set about shooting to see if it all comes together. to meet a pricepoint, ruger seems to be giving up an essential level of quality control that should be exercised prior to a final signoff and leaving it to a growing number of dissatisfied customers to return to the factory for a potential fix. and i say potential, because even at that level, there's no guarantee it'll be satisfactory nor performed to a high standard expected in the consumer market. show me a target to prove your work!

i still own a 629dx smith that will outshoot every gun i've ever owned, freedom arms included. it came with a factory target and had a guarantee it would shoot 'x' at 50yds and it did, and still does. yes, smiths offer finer finish, and you pay for it, but even the dx series was a selection of the best of best from production runs and sample targets. and it was worth every nickel to pay for that level of assurance. and i'd be willing to do it with ruger, if they offered it, because i like the feel of, in this case, my 5.5" ss convertible bisley. and i'd love for them to bring back the 5.5" redhawk. but bring 'em to me as guaranteed shooters, not a shot in the dark at getting a gun that meets minimal, functional requirements.

ruger, get your act together. uncle bill would never tolerate your current, embarrassing state of quality control...and neither should we.
bobke

[targetshootr]

It would be nice if Rugers were tighter but you get what you pay for, as they say. Which means their prices are pretty low and yet they will redo most anything you ask them to do at little or no cost to the owner, no matter if you're the original owner or the fiftieth. On the other hand, some companies charge huge prices up front and then if it ever needs service, you pay out the wazoo... unless you're the original owner or it's still under warranty. That you have to pay big bucks for service on a gun costing four times as much as a Ruger blows my mind more than Ruger's QC problems do.

[jh45gun]

One Reason I just bought a Uberti Cattleman as I was fed up with Ruger some time ago and I will not own one ever again. Sure they have made some good guns but their bad guns are way too many for a so called reputable company. I have had good ones and bad ones but the bad ones have soured me on their company and from reading post on the internet I am not alone in getting a bad Ruger. First thing a guy who shoots Rugers said about my Uberti wow it sure is tight not like my Ruger. I wonder if Bill is spinning?

[Dale53]

I recently purchased a Ruger 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum. The throats are correct and the revolver appears to be a real shooter. I need a trigger job but it is not the worst I've seen by a long shot. As soon as I get a set of grips for it (it is beating up my middle finger) I expect a long, happy life for me and my newest Ruger.

I'm still waiting for my Ruger Lipsey .44 Special but I have faith, I do, I do...:drinks:

Dale53

[Rodfac]

I've bought three in the last month and a half.

A New Vaquero in .45 LC that will shoot 2+" gps all day long from 25 yds. The throats are undersized however...like .450-.451. The groove dia. is .452, but it does shoot as previously stated. I'll send it off to the Cylindersmith to get them opened up. The front sight is too tall, but that's easy. A little file work to center my own loads. However, it shoots 2" left at 25 yds now and that will need to be corrected. I plan to send it to Ruger after hearing another guy's story on how they 'fixed' it by screwing the barrel in just a bit. That would work with this one and it won't take much.

The 2nd Ruger is a 50th Anniversary .44 Mag that will shoot legitimate 1.25" gps at 25 yds, with 1000 fps loads on demand. With .44 special brass, they open up to 1.5" and I've only just started the load work up for this gun. It's a shooter.

The last is a Lipsey's .44 Special of the 4 5/8" persuasion. It too is a shooter and matches the .44 Mag for accuracy.

Fit and finish on all three were good, not S&W good but nice. My only complaint really is the new model timing which raises the bolt too soon and you get the cylinder ring. I've taken to greasing the bolt notches and litely all the way around the cylinder to help prevent this eye sore. Ruger ought t to have engineered a better hand/bolt timing procedure.

Trigger pulls out of the box, were in the 4# range until I lifted one arm of the trigger return spring off its peg. All now go about 2+# with just a little creep, and that has smoothed out using the thumb assisted hammer fall method to wear in the sear notch. It's worked well for me.

So aside from the cylinder throat sizing issue and sight alignment with the .45, I'm happy with Ruger's efforts.
By the way, for the two .44s I'm sizing Lyman's 429215 GC to .432" and tumble lubing with LLA. This is slightly big for the cylinder mouths, but allows me to use the same ammunition in my Marlin 336 in .44 Mag, with its .432-.433" groove diameter. One inch gps with the Marlin at 50 yds with that bullet. Earlier today, I sized 25 of the same boolit to .430" to see it I could coax some additional accuracy out of the .44's. The groups ran about the same, so I think I've hit the limit of what my eyes will do...63 yo next month.
HTH's Rodfac

[Larry Gibson]

hmm i just got one of their bisley hunters in 41 mag the throats are 411 and the bbl is 410.
the gap is closer to .003 and the metal actually lines up nicely even with the wood.
the ruger hawkeye i bought last fall has a dead on bbl and is one of the most accurate cast rifles i have.
maybe they are feeling the rush right now too seems bout NOBODY can manufacture things fast enough to make anyything well right now.

I've had one of the Bisley .41s (not a "hunter" but has 7 1/2" barrel) for 18 years. I got it off a captain who was shipping to Germany for $225, he had fired 12 shots out of it. Anyways it has become my favorite big game hunting revolver. I recently mounted a Burris FastFire dot sight (really small sight) using a Weaver base. It works so well I will remove the Weaver no drill base and D&T the top strap for a single weaver base. That will lower the Fast fire and I will be able to put the iron back on permantly. I use a shoulder holster for carry when hunting. I just love it.

Larry Gibson

[jh45gun]

The thing that bothers me is your always going to get the " I do not know what your talking about my ruger is perfect ect post" Like I said before not all rugers are bad. I do see too darn many "My Ruger Sucks Post" that does make a person wonder what is with ruger quality control. Too many post like that to make me say no more Rugers at least no new ones and if I bought a used one I would insist on shooting it first. My opinion you should not have to take a gun to some one to "FIX" it or TUNE it or Get A Trigger Job on it when it comes from the factory it should already be that way. Yea I know some guns have the lawyer proof triggers ect but that still is no excuse.

[jack19512]

When I recently sent my SBH 44 mag back to Ruger the person on the phone told me "you know we shoot them at 15 yards and 3 inch group is acceptable". Now I don't know if they know what they are talking about or not but if that is the case then 50 yards is probably out of the question. :(

Now I know a lot of peoples Rugers do much better than 3 inches at 15 yards but if this is the acceptable measure of a revolvers accuracy from Ruger then the two I sent back were still not close enough to pass. I do have a Ruger SRH 454 Casull that I am happy with.

I shot the SRH 454 today and I am very pleased. I was shooting from a distance of 60 yards and my 6 shot groups were right at 5 inches. This is with my cast boolit loads. Now I know for most of you this would never win any matches or awards but coming from a guy that has had the last two Ruger 44 mag's that would do 5 inches at 15 yards I can tell you that I am elated. [smilie=w:

Also, I know that some of the accuracy problem is with my shooting which I hope to improve on the more I shoot this revolver and some of the problem is my cast boolit loads which I am sure will improve as time goes by also. So, as far as the SRH 454 is concerned I think this :bigsmyl2: is what I have to look forward to.

[shotman]

Well here is my story When Ruger Came out with the 454 about what 10 years back. I bought one . Took it out to try the big gun. Factory ammo. Shot 6 and had to put a pad on ejector to get cases out. I shot 6 more and 3 cases went back in gun. Got back in about 5weeks. I shot it 6 more times and was getting around 4in at 25yds off sand bags. I tried 3 different cast loads and all were about the same. I sold it and said would not have any more. About 3 years later guy offer me another one for $400.I said $300 and will take it. Well I had another one. This was new looking in case. I took it out and shot it, 2 cases I had to drive out. I cleaned it up and about that time S&W was coming out with the 500/and460. Local gun shop got one in and the Ruger got traded. I have a 10-22 that is a dream and a old bear cat that will break walnuts I know every one can get a bad one but that was 2 in a row rick

[klcarroll]

To be entirely honest, ....The most alarming thing I have read here is that Ruger thinks 3" @ 15 yards is acceptable!!! With the CNC Machining Technology that is available today, there is simply NO excuse for that!

.......Heck, ...I load 00Buck loads that are almost that good!! [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

(......OK! .....So I'm "stretching" the point a little with the buckshot thing!:kidding:)


Kent

[Lloyd Smale]

you found what ive found for years with rugers. there 45 colt are hit and miss for both quailtiy control and accuracy. I had so many bad ones through the years that i migrated back to prefering the 44 mag. Ive NEVER had a 44 mag from ruger that didnt shoot exceptionaly well. Ive had them that quality control wasnt the greatest but at least they were all shooters. I dont think i had a single 45 colt that didnt need some work and what i have left are all guns that have been through major money customizations. Another problem with the 45 colt is unless a guy wants to shoot 300 grain or heavier bullets the selection of truely great shooting molds is pretty slim. In 44 about anything seems to be easy to find a load for.

[oldhickory]

My Ruger tales are about 50/50. One Super Black Hawk that would shoot anything fed to it accurately, one that could barely keep em all on the paper. A Red Hawk that was even WORSE! Two totally satisfactory .22 auto pistols, and two fine 10/22s. An M77 that was o.k...A Mini 14 that I couldn't wait to get rid of!...And two #1s, one in .375 H&H mag that was good-nuf for anything I would use it for and a .22-250 varmint model that I had re-barreled because the Ruger barrel would barely hold a 3" group!

Currently I only have three, a 10/22 that I would never part with, an old Standard Model .22 auto pistol that never disapoints me, and an Old Army that I haven't shot yet.

Would I buy another Ruger?...Yeah, but it would probably be an older one.

[jh45gun]

Lloyd the last 44 mag Super Blackhawk I had was horrible accuracy wise as was the Single Six I bought about the same time. Both soured me on Rugers yet I have had a couple of good ones too that I had traded off foolishly now that I look back on it as my only advice can be if you have an accurate Ruger KEEP IT as the next one may not be so special.

[frank505]

I take it for granted that if I buy a Ruger sixgun, used, I will have to work on it. Except for the 44 mag 5.5 inch that works as I got it. Havent bought a new one, just used ones at gun shows. My 45 that I sent a famous name "gunsmith" that came back with a rechambered cylinder with 451 tapering to 455 throats, could never figure out why it leaded so much. It now has a factory cylinder and its ok, not great. Someday I'll find a 44 cylinder for it and rechamber in 45 tite.
That 44 I bought at a gun show is about perfect and I never clean the barrel as it never fouls or leads. I would like to ask somebody at Ruger, why the goatf#$% for the 45's. The new Vaqueros seem to be close to right on by the way.
If I was gonna buy a new revolver today, I think I would try a BFR, youall missed the 475's for 500 bucks at CDNN...............it was a real temptation but I have six shot 475 already and I only carry one at a time.

[dubber123]

That CDNN buy was not one to miss. If I didn't already have a .475, I would have had to get one. 50% off sales rarely are even close to 50% off, but that sale really was.

[targetshootr]

Another thing I like about Rugers is that you can do a lot of things to improve them yourself. Not all guns are like that, some of them are like new cars today, you need a gazillion dollars worth of gizmos to tune one up.

[Throwback]

Not to minimize your frustrating experience, I have had only good luck with Rugers. The only nuisance has been a roughly finished ejector housing on a BH I ordered 2 years ago. Also if pressed, I concede that the SA grip frames could be a better fit to the frame. I have always held a love for S&W but I have had more problems with Smiths than any other gun. (I have also owned many more Smiths than any other make) I have seen problem guns from many manufacturers. Kimber, the old High Standard (pistols only not revolvers) and Sig are the only makes where I have never seen an issue that was not created by the owner. If you want to discuss really inconsistent quality control look at Colt.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats odd. Ive owned over a dozen ruger 44s through the years and my buddy even has owned more and i cant remember one that didnt shoot. Now 45s i could write a book on swear words used. Two calibers ruger at least in my opinion gets right are the 44s and 32s.
Lloyd the last 44 mag Super Blackhawk I had was horrible accuracy wise as was the Single Six I bought about the same time. Both soured me on Rugers yet I have had a couple of good ones too that I had traded off foolishly now that I look back on it as my only advice can be if you have an accurate Ruger KEEP IT as the next one may not be so special.

[stubshaft]

I have a couple of older Rugers that I wouldn't part with. I usually only buy used ones now. The last one that I bought was a Bhawk 4 5/8" 45LC. The guy I bought it from couldn't keep more than 3 of 6 rounds on paper at 25yds. Found the cylinder to be .4512" and the barrel .4525", also where the barrel wsa screwed into the fframe there wa a tight spot. Reamed cylinder and lapped tight spot out of barrel and now the gun shoots 1 1/2"@ 25yds.

[wiljen]

The 357 Mag Vaqueros (First Model) suffer from the same quality problems you guys have described in the 45s. I bought one new that had to have 2 chambers recut before a factory 357 round would chamber. Then when trying to shoot it for group, I found the throats were all over the map. They varied from .355 to .363. It too had the tight spot under the frame and went back to Ruger. It never did get fixed to my satisfaction and eventually went on down the road.

[jh45gun]

Well no matter what the caliber if it comes crappy from the factory there is no exuse for it. NONE.

[bobke]

does anyone here have any sense or direct knowledge of whether anyone from ruger might actually frequent this forum?

if they had some sense of the troubling and ongoing quality control issues they have out there that directly affect their public image or perception, seems they should have interest in addressing the marketing, technical and production issues that are the root cause of a thread such as this and get about fixing the problems and be the company we might all rather see.

again, i don't mind doing a bit of homework to knock off a burr here/there, round off a sharp corner on a trigger, but the basics should be there to bring a gun to it's full potential. 3" at 15 yards isn't it for me. nor is a cylinder with chamber throats running between .355 and .363. or a .009 cylinder gap. that's an unexcusable lack of quality control and i care little that ruger's so willing to fix it. fix it in the production process, not in the service department.

give me properly cut throats, a straight barrel, a properly aligned cylinder-all held to close tolerance and i can make that gun shoot. but give me a gun that shoots patterns and not groups, and i'm not even remotely interested in plowing a bunch of time and $ into fixing a poorly executed finished good. and that seems to be where ruger is with some of their product line.

so all that said, would anyone object if i took this thread and attached it to a letter to the marketing and sales directors at ruger and try to direct some proper and sincere attention to the basic issues we see here? again, i've been a long time ruger enthusiast and really like some of the offerings they have out there, but i'd really like to see if they are aware of these issues and what their plan for dealing with them is. post up you thoughts. somehow, this has really gotten under my skin and i'd like to take it to a higher level and see what happens. nothing ventured, nothing gained....right?

[chaos]

HHHHHHMMMMM................

I'm an admitted Ruger freak. The only gun that I've ever been dissatisfied with was any of the mini 14's. The crappy barrels on them really make them a Turd of a gun. I eventully said to hell with it and went with an AR.

I currently have 4 SBH's. All in 44 mag. All of them eat wahtever I feed them and are far more accurate than me.

The old MarkI M77 rifles ( With the tang safety) are some of the best rifles ever produced in my opinion.

Ruger autopistols are built like tanks and run like tops. They just have the ergonomics of a brick.

I wouldn't trade my red label for any other hunting scattergun on the planet.

I did have a 10/22 of all things come apart in my hands once. Springs, ejector or extractor launched out of the side and Bolt siezed to the rear. I called ruger with the claim and they sent the parts right out to me free of charge. I put it back together and its been running ever since.

I just wish Ruger would make a 1911................I'd be all over it.

[jack19512]

so all that said, would anyone object if i took this thread and attached it to a letter to the marketing and sales directors at ruger and try to direct some proper and sincere attention to the basic issues we see here?








I'm the one that posted the 3 inches at 15 yards and I'm OK with it. I think it's a good idea and don't see how it could hurt. I'm curious if the 3 inches at 15 yards is true or not.

I like Ruger firearms but I'm on my second 44 mag revolver being returned because of accuracy problems. So far it hasn't cost me any out of pocket money but I hate the 6 week wait to get the gun back. I bought the gun to shoot, and I can't shoot it if I don't have it. :(

I read about those that have great shooting Rugers and never got a bad one. There is a simple explanation for that, I beat you to the bad ones. :) I've owned a lot of Rugers and have several now but for some reason I have not been able to get a good 44 mag yet.

I know some that are going to think it is just me but if I can shoot a .357 mag or a .454 Casull good then I should be able to shoot a 44 mag good. The latest SBH 44 mag with 7 1/2 inch barrel I returned had to have had 3 different bore dimensions. From the crown end of the barrel to an inch back the cast slug was a light snug fit, from there to about an inch to where the barrel went into the frame the fit was very loose, then where the barrel screwed in to the frame the slug was a very tight fit. Also the cylinder had what looked like small hairline cracks on the barrel end of the cylinder. I don't know if those were anything to worry about or not.

[Ghugly]

Hairline cracks in the cylinder would sure worry me.

:shock:

[Frank]

I'd bet Ghugly's cat over Lloyd's dog in a heartbeat. :veryconfu

[jh45gun]

I'm the one that posted the 3 inches at 15 yards and I'm OK with it. I think it's a good idea and don't see how it could hurt. I'm curious if the 3 inches at 15 yards is true or not.

I like Ruger firearms but I'm on my second 44 mag revolver being returned because of accuracy problems. So far it hasn't cost me any out of pocket money but I hate the 6 week wait to get the gun back. I bought the gun to shoot, and I can't shoot it if I don't have it. :(

I read about those that have great shooting Rugers and never got a bad one. There is a simple explanation for that, I beat you to the bad ones. :) I've owned a lot of Rugers and have several now but for some reason I have not been able to get a good 44 mag yet.

I know some that are going to think it is just me but if I can shoot a .357 mag or a .454 Casull good then I should be able to shoot a 44 mag good. The latest SBH 44 mag with 7 1/2 inch barrel I returned had to have had 3 different bore dimensions. From the crown end of the barrel to an inch back the cast slug was a light snug fit, from there to about an inch to where the barrel went into the frame the fit was very loose, then where the barrel screwed in to the frame the slug was a very tight fit. Also the cylinder had what looked like small hairline cracks on the barrel end of the cylinder. I don't know if those were anything to worry about or not.


First 44 mag I owned It hit it seemed no matter what I shot at it was excellent I traded it off as I felt at the time I could not afford to feed it and I did not reload back then. Next 44 I had throwing rocks would have been better it was totally opposite of the first one I had. Like I said if a person has an accurate one keep it as there is no guarantee the next one you may get is as accurate or even accurate at all.

[jack19512]

I'd bet Ghugly's cat over Lloyd's dog in a heartbeat. :veryconfu








Care to elaborate?

[What Cheer]

Gentlemen,

I have a question, what is a BFR revolver?

Thanks, and best regards.

What Cheer

[j20owner]

Big Friggin Revolver. BFR's (http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp)

Ok, they say Biggest, Finest Revolver. Sure.......[smilie=1:

[yarro]

Ruger has had quality issues lately. I have heard it from multiple sources including dealers. Considering their current pricing, quality issues are unforgivable. Fixing them half-assed, not at all, or creating a different problem when returned is even worse. I like my older Rugers but much like S&W I won't touch their new stuff anymore.

-yarro

[kelbro]

After reading this post, I will count myself lucky. 5 Rugers. Mark I, MarkII, two 10/22s and a Hunter SBH . All superb. None are newer and after hearing of these latest issues, I would hesitate before buying a new one.

[jh45gun]

Ruger has had quality issues lately. I have heard it from multiple sources including dealers. Considering their current pricing, quality issues are unforgivable. Fixing them half-assed, not at all, or creating a different problem when returned is even worse. I like my older Rugers but much like S&W I won't touch their new stuff anymore.

-yarro

Its more then just lately though it seems that I have heard more complaints. Here is one thought that some one posted at an other forum who used to work for Ruger. The machinery is getting old and so are the machinist and a lot have retired. Those old guys knew how to tweak the machines to get the most out of them their replacements do not. Now this could be bull I do not know it was just what this guy said and it sounds reasonable to me. Even so when Ruger was making better guns they still had their shares of clunkers then too expecially the revolvers.

[Bass Ackward]

Ahhhh the science of quality. It just doesn't seem to be there at times. But why?

Ever read here how in 44 caliber with a 240 grain bullet that the accuracy load for Unique is all over the place? Speer used to say 7 grains. Elmer liked 8.5. 10 grains is popular today. Now it can be up to max. Is it all bullet hardness and lube? Nope.

Even when these guns are made perfectly by machining, they will have a sweet spot. Some guns will work at low pressures with fast powders. Some with slow powders operating on the top end. All to change the pressure time curve.

First off, guns are machined soft and then heat treated. Sometimes steel will relax and change under this process. Even if it doesn't, stress in the steel allows movement when things go under pressure. Frames twist and torc and bow which moves the position of that barrel, the cylinder, everything. Maybe each chamber does something a little different. Nobody on earth can predict how that is going to go. Older S&W 44s would actually stretch under pressure and allow the cylinder to flop open under fire.

When you develop a load, what you are doing is finding where things are the least wrong. You fire them until whats wrong gets worn the hell out of the way. What it is called is break in. And will usually finish by 10k to 12k rounds. Then you will know what you have. This break in NEEDS to occur up and down the pressure scale if you are running a high powered cartridge and in cold and warm conditions.

Reality: Statistically, the largest percentage of guns made are never shot. OR never shot enough to notice. And with the price of factory ammo, this is probably going to become more true over time. Most guns are made "pretty" as the attraction is what spurs most purchases by the owner. Blued guns for collection. Stainless for hard use. Then just fix the complaints as they come back. That is the cheapest and most profitable formula for these guys.

If I wanted to play the odds, stainless is softer and easier to machine than 4140. So you should get better results from the start without inducing more stress to the steel. And heat treating is more with stainless to remove more stress which stainless requires to toughen. Look at BFRs and Freedom's. Can you buy a blued gun? Any benchrest matches shot with chrome molly?

Soooooooooooooooooo ....... if you are a manufacturer that make both types, where do you tell your people to spend the most time building a good product to avoid returns? Guarantees? Nope, just odds.

[bobke]

good comments, bass ackward, but is it really the science or economy of quality anymore? being in a production manufacturing business, and seeing some of our 'mistakes' coming back for repair, i'll always maintain it's cheaper to fix something once, in production, than to have it come back for rework later.

unless the pool of gunsmithing talent at ruger is being developed in the service department, where they get to see all the warranty claims being generated on the production line, and gain a full understanding of how to avoid these in the future? don't think so.

i'll go back to providing a target with every gun shipped. that's our assurance, that regardless of how hard or soft stainless or chrome moly is, regardless of the fitup, tolerances held or not, regardless of the age of the gunsmith, his experience or the age of the machine tools used to produce the gun in question, they know, before we do, that it meets a higher standard than what's coming out of there now. don't release it for sale until it meets a particular standard.

and believe me, if ruger's minimum for excellence is 3" at 15 yards, or the issues we've seen in this thread, the market should take care of ruger and they'd go away, because no one in their right mind, would buy one. or they could fix it!

[Frank]

Bass Ackward writes:


Most guns are made "pretty" as the attraction is what spurs most purchases by the owner. Blued guns for collection. Stainless for hard use. Then just fix the complaints as they come back. That is the cheapest and most profitable formula for these guys.


And when the end user complains, they just laugh. The pee-on reads the complaint. The higher ups never cared. They're at lunch celebrating the market expansion. [smilie=s:

[pmeisel]

being in a production manufacturing business, and seeing some of our 'mistakes' coming back for repair, i'll always maintain it's cheaper to fix something once, in production, than to have it come back for rework later.

Echo that. And it is not rocket science to manage a quality program, there are plenty of qualified people to do that. Absence of quality is a sign that management just doesn't care.

[Frank]

being in a production manufacturing business, and seeing some of our 'mistakes' coming back for repair, i'll always maintain it's cheaper to fix something once, in production, than to have it come back for rework later.


Echo that. And it is not rocket science to manage a quality program, there are plenty of qualified people to do that. Absence of quality is a sign that management just doesn't care.

Or they do care, but not about quality or credibility. They care about being "successful", which is measured in their bottom line. Sometimes the executives who really run the company say to each other at lunch, "We can keep the same equipment, get cheaper labor but meet the market expansion." "But that'll hurt the quality", the quality manager retorts. "Quality is important to our customers", he emphasizes. The legal executive repies, "Our customers, the bulk of the market, never notice the quality. It's better to get the majority's business and lose a few, then to spend alot to make it good for everybody." The CEO says to the legal guy, "Good boy. You've come along way." This discussion has been gong on for decades and that's why the Japanese have beat our asses in the car market. This is OLD stuff.

[bobke]

frank-reality check for certain...but. my company's been gearing towards an overall approach to lean manufacturing, six sigma, 5s and the like, and the few kaizen events i've observed or been part of to date always looked for the obvious fixes available to a department or manufacturing cell/process that could be implemented without cost, or at least a minimal outlay from the company, to provide a measurable improvement in output and quality, always with the idea of bettering your six sigma score. fewer opportunities for error and fewer committed.

i'm betting that ruger could benefit from this process all over their production areas, certainly in doing better than .355 and .363 in the same cylinder with a review of the measurements of tooling, certainly in screwing in a cylinder for tighter than a .009 gap, squaring up sights and barrel breeches on revolvers, torqueing(sp?) barrels in so eliminate some of the compression at the breech/forcing cone. using the right tool to install a roll pin to avoid a 3/16 dimple on the sight base. come on, this is simple, good smithing protocol that should be at arm's reach in a properly equipped service department. nothing above would cost much to engage, it's just a matter of doing it, unless as you say, the workforce is on piece rate instead of having the instruction to get it done correctly, once, not to be returned to service for the same issue-or a new one-once returned to it's owner.

i guess, as someone above has said, and i've seen in other forums, i'd rather be out shooting, than waiting for the ups man to show up with my long, lost weapon-not seen for months since purchased. i strongly object to the fact that ruger has given up my right to expect more from them, purely for economic gain. i fully understand you have to make hay when the sun shines, but the legal team you've referred to may have made an incorrect assumption about the buyer-don't produce a weapon you can count on, as delivered? we don't buy them. last i checked, most of us are in business for ongoing, continuous and long term sales relationships-this behavior from ruger doesn't speak to me as one of their long term clients. they need to fix this!

[bobke]

thought you all might be interested in this thread from rimfirecentral:

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281531

more commentary on the current manufacturing woes at ruger. seems it's not just limited to revolvers.

[jack19512]

I should be getting my SBH 44 mag back from Ruger around the middle of next month but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting on any worthwhile repairs on it. Just something not right with Ruger anymore. :(

[2shot]

Its more then just lately though it seems that I have heard more complaints. Here is one thought that some one posted at an other forum who used to work for Ruger. The machinery is getting old and so are the machinist and a lot have retired. Those old guys knew how to tweak the machines to get the most out of them their replacements do not. Now this could be bull I do not know it was just what this guy said and it sounds reasonable to me. Even so when Ruger was making better guns they still had their shares of clunkers then too expecially the revolvers.



No kidding! I still have an old Model 77 from when they first were offered in 7X57 and it shoots groups like a shotgun. For the first 200 or so rounds that I put through it the rifle shot great and then it started to deteriorate accuracy wise to where now it's terrible with 6"+ groups with any load at 100 yards. The only reason I have kept it for the last 30+ years is because it shoots so bad that I would never think of selling it and sticking someone else with my problem. I was told that I got one of their "bad barrles from another manufacturer" from when they didn't make their own but was never offered a replacement. Some day I'll try and have it re-barreled with a quality barrel and see how it shoots then. On the flip side I have a #3 in 45/70 that I bought in 1975 that shoots wonderfully from day 1. Like someone else has said "hit or miss with Ruger quality" and it seems like it has always been that way from as long as I can remember.

2shot

[pmeisel]

Or they do care, but not about quality or credibility. They care about being "successful", which is measured in their bottom line.

Frank, no business is successful in the long haul selling junk. Every major company with their stuff together is concerned about quality.... but some are not good at it. And they will fail if they don't figure their problem out.

[Frank]

Frank, no business is successful in the long haul selling junk. Every major company with their stuff together is concerned about quality.... but some are not good at it. And they will fail if they don't figure their problem out.

So what about NC star? Write them a letter and tell them if they invest more in quality, they'll be a more successful business. But they depend on their cheap Chinese factory, so when they read your letter, they'll just laugh it off to themselves. Sears Kenmore is another joke. They use the label to sell the product, but it's junk. They benefit because when it breaks, the service guy can sell you on an extended warranty. That happens after 6 months of owning their product. We'll all be paying $250 a year to keep our refrigerators working right. That is NC Star's strategy, we keep the money and you keep the junk. Same with Sears. [smilie=p:

[Maven]

Got my Mk. II Gov't Model back from Ruger (See post #7) 2 weeks ago, but couldn't test fire it because they forgot to return the grip retaining screws* so I couldn't check it until Ruger shipped me 4 new ones. They fixed the problem and even sighted it in perfectly. It is virtually a new pistol and I am100% satisfied with its accuracy and their service.


*I shipped it to them without the Hogue grips I added, but left the 4 screws in the grip frame.

[curiousgeorge]

Just found this site. Where have all ya'll been all my life?

And I thought that I was the only one that had Ruger problems. Bought a new 5.5inch blued 44 that had 2 cylindrical grooves cut through the rifling. One exactly 1 inch from end of barrel and one exactly 1 inch from end of forcing cone. Back to Ruger with a request to replace with 4.75 inch barrel. Quick turn around and good barrel now but how did that ever get through final inspection?? ( also now have 4.75 barrel with fluted cylinder) Second gun was 5.5 stainless bisley in 45 colt. Everything loaded and tried shot way high at 25 yards. Prepaid shipping back to Ruger. Advised by customer service that gun had wrong sights and that they would replace n/c with correct. When recd back from factory, front sight base had BIG dent in one side and approx 1/16" of roll pin sticking out other side of base and bent over almost like you would do an old nail ( clinched ? ). Back to Ruger again. Second time O.K., but again, how do you not notice this?

Still a Ruger fan and have more than my wife needs to know about but have been disappointed several times with quality.

just a Kentucky boy at heart

[jack19512]

just a Kentucky boy at heart






George, welcome to the forum. Are you just a Kentucky boy at heart or do you live in Ky. ?

[bobke]

curious george-
i'm new here also, but long time shooter-and ruger owner. welcome. just curious, since my bisley went back for repair and was sent back with the exact same large punch dent in the side of the sight base-among other things, we must've had the same rookie working on our guns. perhaps he's the designated bisley 'technician'. i'd love to send him a roll pin punch as a thank you for leaving his 'signature' behind on my gun. atta boy, chicho!

but more importantly and what should be very significant to ruger-if they really do give a .... for their end users, what percent of time of actual ownership has the gun been at ruger for repair and how much have you enjoyed the use of same during the wait in between returns from repair? that's my point. if i have to wait six months for it to go back and forth to finally get it to me in the state it should've arrived brand new in the box, they've missed a critical stage of the qc process. this product should never leave the factory in such a state. and a test target would prove that out.

like's just been said previously, if they don't respond to the market, they won't exist for long with this rate of repair. now, think about laying down $2k for their new ar15/556 and having to send it back/forth for a couple of months while being sorted out. what if you 'had' to use it for defensive purposes in the duration and it wasn't there. think ruger'd like to share that liability-with that or any other gun used in a self defense mode? i don't think so.

[curiousgeorge]

jack19512 - Kentucky boy born & bred, with one foot firmly planted almost up to my knee. Love to travel, especially the western states, but just like Dorothy, there "is no place like home".

[shdwlkr]

Now you have me wondering if I want the 44 special they have out now but since it is a lipsey item I am still guessing it is better than a regular ruger factory pistol.
I have several ruger products but the newest is over 5-6 years old so I must have got them before the real gunsmith machinists retired.
Thanks for the heads up and know that I need to almost tear them down in order to get a good one.

[shdwlkr]

Now you have me wondering if I want the 44 special they have out now but since it is a lipsey item I am still guessing it is better than a regular ruger factory pistol.
I have several ruger products but the newest is over 5-6 years old so I must have got them before the real gunsmith machinists retired.
Thanks for the heads up and know that I need to almost tear them down in order to get a good one.

[jh45gun]

About the NCStar comment I have one a 4 X pistol scope with illuminated crosshairs that I got when I bought a S&W 22A the pistol had that scope on it which is way to big for a 22 pistol so now it sits on my K31 as a scout scope and it works on that just fine. One big difference between NC Star and Ruger NC Star sells cheap optics and you know that going into the buy when you buy one. Ruger on the other hand sells guns that while are not Top of the Line Expensive as far as guns go are not cheap either they represent a major purchase for most of us who are looking to buy a gun. With that in mind if the saying you get what you pay for is true then with the price of a new Ruger you should rely on getting a GOOD PRODUCT the first time and every time. With Ruger that does not always happen.

[Dale53]

I see all of these threads about terrible Ruger quality and I believe them. However, it may be that we don't hear about the 99% that are just fine.

I just recently bought a Ruger 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum. The throats are nearly perfect, the gun shoots under an inch at 25 yards. The only criticism I could make is the polishing on the frame under the cylinder window is not quite perfect (minor cosmetic issue) and, of course, it needs a trigger job. This is a FINE revolver and since every Ruger I have ever bought needs a trigger job, that was not unexpected.

I have a Lipsey .44 Special ordered and expect it to be of high quality. I also expect it to shoot VERY well (and from all of the reports I've heard, it is a tack driver).

Dale53

[shotman]

Well will have to add my .02 I have had 9 Rugers 3 rifles---mk1 a mini 14 and a 10-22-- had 6 hand guns super black H 45/45acp a SBH carbine a red H 44 2 super 454s and a Old bear cat 22. I have the Bear cat and the 10-22. The rest have been long gone. That is about 20% so that is not good guns. I have 11 S&Ws and only 1 ever had a problem. I have 4 colts never a problem. That tells me I dont want any Rugers. They want the Bear cat to {fix it} BS they dont need to fix it . rick

[jack19512]

jack19512 - Kentucky boy born & bred, with one foot firmly planted almost up to my knee. Love to travel, especially the western states, but just like Dorothy, there "is no place like home".







I live right outside of Hazard. Don't know if you know where that is or not. You're right about that, there's no place like home. No matter where I have traveled around the world I really enjoy pulling back into my driveway. :grin:

[curiousgeorge]

jack19512

Still figuring out how to use all the postings. I've been to your area a few times (Buckhorn, Pippa Passes, Robinson Forest). Most favorite place to travel is our state. I am over on Green River Lake.

This is a great web site. Not too many reloaders around my area any more except trap shooters. When I tell people about shooting deer with a 35 Whelan and a 300 gr lead bullet or squirrel hunting with a single shot rifle loaded with 38 spec wadcutters they just think that I'm crazy. If the terms "Brinnell hardness", "nose pour", or "Hensley & Gibbs" come up in a discussion, they're pretty sure that I'm an alien. Have set up about a half dozen young guys in reloading (gotta have somebody to talk to !!!!).

[jack19512]

I should be getting my SBH 44 mag back from Ruger around the middle of next month but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting on any worthwhile repairs on it. Just something not right with Ruger anymore. :(










Well, I got a follow up call from Ruger today. They said it will be another 3 weeks on my SBH 44 mag. They said it was sent to the machine shop for a new cylinder replacement, no mention about the barrel. If I do get it back in 3 weeks it will be gone for 8 weeks or 2 months, take your pick whichever sounds best. I might get to shoot it again someday. :(

[jh45gun]

Well, I got a follow up call from Ruger today. They said it will be another 3 weeks on my SBH 44 mag. They said it was sent to the machine shop for a new cylinder replacement, no mention about the barrel. If I do get it back in 3 weeks it will be gone for 8 weeks or 2 months, take your pick whichever sounds best. I might get to shoot it again someday. :(

They should just send folks a NEW one with no waiting if it is going to take that long. I had ONE issue with my Henry 22 mag lever and I called them and they sent me a prepaid shipping tag to ship the gun to them plus they had it back to me in a weeks time in fact it was slightly less than a week. I did not have to pay for shipping and got super fast service. The gun has been perfect since. Ruger should take a lesson from Henry.

[wallenba]

Mebbe things are gettin' a little slack there since ol' Bill passed!?

[pdawg_shooter]

They should just send folks a NEW one with no waiting if it is going to take that long. I had ONE issue with my Henry 22 mag lever and I called them and they sent me a prepaid shipping tag to ship the gun to them plus they had it back to me in a weeks time in fact it was slightly less than a week. I did not have to pay for shipping and got super fast service. The gun has been perfect since. Ruger should take a lesson from Henry.

If they send you a new one you have to start over on the returns! UPS loves Ruger!

[NHlever]

Ruger is in the process of many internal changes to bring them more in line with the lean manufacturing techniques that so many Japanese companies use successfully. There are bumps on that curve as there are on any new way of processing things. I've heard that there have been changes in Customer Service regarding how repairs are handled. It used to be that each technician had a gun line, and some gun lines had more than one. The folks there got pretty familiar with those guns. I think now they are broken up a little differently in that perhaps one technician does triggers, one barrels, etc. I'm not sure it will stay that way since I do know some folks are unhappy with it inside the plant. Sometimes companies just have to try a couple of things before they land on something that works best for all. I can assure you that Ruger takes customer satisfaction quite seriously, and has invested a pile of money in the effort to produce more consistant products.

[44mag1]

Ive had bad rugers, but never a bad smith. Ive owned 5 times as many s&w's as I have rugers for a good reason.

I cant wait until someone else comes out with an LCP copy!

[JesterGrin_1]

Wow I have been thinking that I would purchase a New Ruger BlackHawk in .44 Mag Stainless but it would be a big outlay for me to do so. And with all of this feed back I see here I must say I am no longer in any hurry to purchase a Ruger anytime soon.

But as a few have said I do have a few S&W 686/629 with no problems with them and they shoot well.

[Tom Herman]

Ruger is in the process of many internal changes to bring them more in line with the lean manufacturing techniques that so many Japanese companies use successfully. There are bumps on that curve as there are on any new way of processing things. I've heard that there have been changes in Customer Service regarding how repairs are handled. I can assure you that Ruger takes customer satisfaction quite seriously, and has invested a pile of money in the effort to produce more consistant products.

Thanks for the update! I'm glad to hear that Ruger is taking things seriously and looking to improve their products and services.
I'm not happy with the problems I've had, but once the guns get straightened out, they are good to go.

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[jh45gun]

Problem is will they get things straitened out? Bad Rugers are not just a recent thing they have had issues for YEARS off and on.

[bobke]

and so the question remains, how many rugers does one have to buy to get a good one? three to one, maybe more? anyone willing to bet those odds?

that said, back when i started this thread, i had great hopes for my 5.5 convertible bisley, only to take delivery and it all go downhill since then, even and especially after ruger's intervention/service attempt. it's now back from ten ring precison in san antone, after setting barrel back and starting with a tight .003 gap and tight cone, straightened up front sight and begin essentially fresh since the last chapter. and with 1000 270gr saa/rcbs from montana bullets works sitting on the bench, finally got to shoot it just a bit last weekend. have had to shorten front sight .040(it's a revised bowen blank) from first effort and will go back this weekend for further testing, but i'm pretty pleased with initial result and it's showing immediate promise with first loads out of the gate(8.5 old unique and 7.5 titegroup, cci300 and solid crimp in federal many times shot brass trimmed to 1.285 uniformly). front sight was way too high with bowen rough country rear, so not a good aiming point just yet, but that's been taken care of and it's ready to go to the bench.

but damn, what a round about way to get to where i felt i should have been right out of the box!

will report back on bisley, but in the meantime, have three ruger 22's needing my attention that i've been after lately with the primer shortage trimming my centerfire shooting down a lot. keep reports coming. we need to drive ruger to continuous improvement with this kind of feedback to get them back on course.

[44mag1]

In the end you could have bought a freedom arms.

[odis]

In the end you could have bought a freedom arms.Or a BFR

[jack19512]

and so the question remains, how many rugers does one have to buy to get a good one?








Well, in the last 6 months or so I have purchased 2 Ruger 44 mags and 1 Ruger 454 Casull and both of the 44 mags had to go back to Ruger for work. I am pretty happy with the 454. That's all I'm gonna say about that! :(

[jh45gun]

If I had a nickle for every gun rag article saying rugers are great guns BUT I sent it to a pistol smith to get slicked up or an accuracy job ect ect ect Of course they are making it sound like they are just tricking out a good gun better but I suspect the guns are getting the treatment to make them shoot like they should shoot out of the box but do not. Jim Wilson was big on that of course he has more money then I do. LOL

[bobke]

not that it would eliminate all of the potential pitfalls of buying a new/used gun from any source, but my 'go to' kit for checking something over, prior to purchase, will now include:
-range rod appropriate to caliber. does cylinder turn up to full lock on it's own?
-feeler gauge that runs down to about .0015 and at least up to .015
-forcing cone gauge to read depth of cone-over or undersize?
-a selection of premeasured bullets, both cast and jacketed, to determine what the cylinder throat diameters are, near as able. not only looking for tight to spec, as this leaves some room to ream properly, but also gives you an idea of variation between chambers and tells you whether you have work to do or possibly not.
-a simple bore light for barrel inspection
-a good eye. is front sight lined up square to rear sight? cosmetic damage, etc?

none of the above will tell you barrel groove diameter or whether there's a forcing cone restriction, but will certainly illuminate any issues you might have to be sending back to factory for correction, early on in the game. or prior to the game.

not to say this sort of inspection shouldn't have already been completed prior to departure from the factory, and still no guarantee of accuracy, but sure eliminates some variables. of course, a 6-12 shot target fired at 25 yds from the factory would insure that.

[jh45gun]

of course, a 6-12 shot target fired at 25 yds from the factory would insure that.

One of Ruger's come on to buy a "Government" Model Ruger Mark II Target pistol was they sent a target from the factory showing the accuracy of the pistol. Ever notice they do not send out any targets for ANY OF THEIR OTHER PISTOLS
LOL