1886 Winchester Extra Light repro 45/70 loads

[2shot]

I'm new here but have been lurking for quite a while and have a question. I have a late model (reproduction)1886 Winchester Extra Light in 45/70 that has never been to accurate whether with reloads or factory ammo (lead or jacketed). I have hand loaded for a Ruger #3 in 45/70 since 1975 and found it a very accurate rifle with just about any reload from 300 grainers to over 500 grains. The Winchester on the other hand has never shown anything close to resembling a decent group (lead or jacketed) since I bought it NIB. Slugging the barrel of the 1886 I found that the rifling (bore vs groove measurment) is only .003 of an inch, this isn't much of a grip on lead boolits.

I was wondering if those of you that has one of these repo 1886's has had any luck with cast boolits? The rifle is beautiful and I would like to use it for hunting in place of the Ruger#3 but with the groups it shoots (or lack of) I sometimes think that I would be better off throwing a hatchet than trying to use this 86 for hunting. I feel that the rifling depth is more of a culprit that anything to do with the fore stock or the hanger when it comes to the lack of accuracy and would like to hear from other 86 owners and how their's shoot.

2shot

[handyrandyrc]

You've slugged it, and are making your castings .001-002 over bore diameter? How hard/soft are your castings? OH and I'd like to be the first to say:

WELCOME TO THE FORUM! We're glad you're here.

[e15cap]

A Lyman 457643BV over 5gr 4227 and 42gr 860 surplus is very accurate for me. Bullet are cast from 30/1 with Knoel lube, unsized.
Best, Roger

[9.3X62AL]

Another "Welcome Aboard" from the People's Republic of Kalifornistan.

Those Ruger 45-70 barrels do grab and hold, don't they? My #1 has eight grooves with lands and grooves roughly the same radius, .449" x .459".

Is there any evidence of stripping when firing lead boolits? I'm assuming here that since you know the land height/groove depth differential, you've used that info to size boolits to throat diameter. 45-70s are notorious for needing fatter boolits than nominal .457". Fatter boolits may also require fatter expander spuds, otherwise you'll be unintentionally sizing down boolits while seating same.

[2shot]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

I have tried wheel weights, lyman # 2 , 20-1 and some comercial cast with not much luck in the 86. I didn't fine any evidence of stripping so I might try a softer mix and see what happens. I use cast for all my handgun loads and the 45/70 is the only longgun that I have reloaded cast boolits all these years besides my muzzleloaders. I'm hopeing to expand on that.

The best accuracy I have had in my Ruger is using Lyman 457124 over 43 gr. of IMR 3031 and sized to .458. I must admit that I have loaded this 6 pound carbine for elephant at times with black and blue shoulders to prove it. Accuracy with almost all bullets in the Ruger has been great and maybe that has spoiled me somewhat.

I'm amazed as to how shallow the rifling is in this 86 and when I first got it I thought that somehow it had slipped by the quality control and had to put my glasses on to see the rifling. Softer might be better, Ill have to give the 30-1 mix a try.

2shot

[Parson]

Friend of mine has the same rifle, is a very accomplished single shot reloader-caster and has the same complaint as you about his 86 light wieght

[jhrosier]

I have an Winchester/Miroku 1886 EL that I have shot a couple hundred rounds of commercial cast 350s through.
It seemed to shoot well although I had the boolits seated about 1/32" too long and had to squeeze the lever pretty hard to close the gun. I don't recall the group sizes but if they were over 2" at 50 yards I would have remembered.
It is right near the top of the list of guns that I will never sell.:drinks:

BTW, if you are shooting from a rest, make sure that you rest the gun as close to the receiver as possible. Lever guns tend to be sensitive to a hard rest way out on the forend.

Jack

[2shot]

I have shot the 86 both offhand and from a rest with about the same results. I would never sell this rifle either, I just have to find out what will shoot well in it. The factory sights leave a lot to be desired and I have thought about changing out the front to a flat gold bead instead of the round gold bead that's on there now. That and a receiver sight should help to at least get a better sight picture and maybe start towards getting more confidence in shooting this rifle. I have done the seating the boolit into the rifling when benchrest shooting and have to admit that I never thought about trying it in my 86. Maybe not as far as you did jhrosier but maybe just touching. I'll have to investagate to see if the action would be long enough to acomplish this.

2shot

[MtGun44]

Mine had very weak firing pin strike, I beleive this added to the inaccy. Try pistol primers
for moderate pressure loads. Also, mine shoots much better when hand held and the
wrist of the fwd hand on a rest, NOT the forend or frame. I was getting 12" vertical
dispersion with many different loads. These rifles have nearly zero throat, so the Rem
405 is great as it has an undersized forward portion. Mine does well with 57.0 W748
over a mag rifle primer (this is after rework to increase primer strike by reducing rebound)
under 405 rem Jacketed or 405 RCBS cast.

Bill

[stocker]

Mine shoots quite well now but it didn't when first received. I did the modification to the lower leg of the hammer thrust link and things improved quite a bit with a more positive strike. Eventually I took the fore end off and found they have two strong coil springs that fit into the rear face of the fore end and butt against the receiver. I could barely re-assemble the fore end because the springs were under such heavy tension. I left them out and shot some groups. End of problems. If the wood ever shrinks and starts to have play I'll fix that correctly but the springs are history.

[2shot]

MtGun44 , I believe that you may be on to something with the light primer strikes, I had that problem with a S&W Mod 14 and until corrected it shot terrible. I've saved the old Rifle magazine that had the rework article for correcting the safety problem. Is this the same rework that you are talking about? I thought about doing this but I feared messing it up and I was unable to find spare parts so I didn't do it. If anybody knows where to find parts for the new 86's with the safety on the tang let me know and I'll give this a try. I'm sure it can't hurt.

2shot

Stocker, we must have been typing at the same time and I didn't see your responce. Sounds like the rework of the lower leg is the thing to do. I still would feel better if I could find spare lower legs incase I booger up something.

[MtGun44]

Yes, that is part if it. In my rifle the silly firing pin lock plunger system was mistimed and
wouldn't unlock properly, squandering even more of the reduced energy in the hammer.
I have reworked the firing pin latch, in addition to reducing the rebound a lot. Mine has
much better accy now.

Wonder if the forend springs have anything to do with why mine is less accurate off a sandback
rest, but OK when handheld with supported wrist?

My Marlin has a huge, deep and large diam firing pin hit and is very accurate. While I love the
looks and feel of the 86, I could choke the stupid twits that "fixed" John Browning's fire controls
on this model. Darn near made it unshootable.

Bill

[stocker]

MtGun44: I don't think the springs are doing what you notice re: supported or straight sand bag. What you are probably seeing is varying muzzle jump when you aren't holding it. Any change in shoulder, cheek or grip tension can initiate that and holding the rifle with the off-hand stabilizes it quite a bit. Any light rifle with sharp recoil especially with a crooked stock like many lever guns have is subject to that inconsistent jump. Some of the worst offenders were the mid-50's 99F's in 308 and 358. Let em fly of the bags and groups were loose. Hold onto them and they tightened substantially.

[JFE]

2 shot - the difference between land and groove diameter you're getting seems too small. Its actually smaller than the difference between land and groove diameter I get for my Marlin 1895 (0.004).

I have a circa 1992 vintage Browning 1886 SRC and its barrel slugs 0.457 & 0.450. I have a take off barrel here from a repro Win 1886 extra light (probably circa 2003) and for the record it also measures 0.457 & 0.450. The Japs seem to be fairly consistent !

Joe

[2shot]

2 shot - the difference between land and groove diameter you're getting seems too small. Its actually smaller than the difference between land and groove diameter I get for my Marlin 1895 (0.004).



Joe

It really is that small of a difference between bore and groove diameters. I may be off by .0005 but not any more than that. When I first found this 86 at a gun store I didn't look at the bore because it was NIB and any 86 in my area was scarce as hens teeth, I was happy with my find. When I got it home and cleaned the barrel I had to do a double take on the factory writing on the barrel to make sure it didn't say .410 instead of 45/70. I have had Marlin Micro Groove barrels in .44 mag and .444 that had a lot more contrast between the bore and groove diameter than this 86. If the Marlins had Micro-groove rifling this 86 has Mini Micro-groove rifling. That's why I first thought that this 86 had somehow slipped by QC. I have a lot of experimenting to do as far as handloads with this gun but it's a possibility of me having this 86 rebarreled if I can't get it to shoot with some regularity. I love the gun and the Extra Light fits my wants and needs for a good all around timber gun, I just want to be able to shoot farther that 30 or so yards and still hit what I'm looking at.

2shot

[JFE]

2shot - that's a bummer on the barrel dimensions.

I havent pushed much lead down the Browning but with jacketed it is really accurate. I'd say accuracy is probably as good as if not better than my Marlin (around 1.5-2 MOA). I must say that I much prefer the extra light style over the carbine style and plan to alter mine soon.

I hope you can work something out as they are really nice guns to use.

Joe

[MtGun44]

Marlin 1895 .45-70 shoots 1.5" 5 shot groups off of sandbags, no problems. Same
POI from shoulder. Why the 86 is such a PITA? It isn't "just any gun will do this"
because my Marlin 30-30 doesn't care, either.

Slow and inconsistent ignition seems a likely culprit. After improving the hammer fall
the rifle seems much more tolerant of different loads and support conditions.

Bill

[muskeg13]

Don't use pistol primers! I strongly caution against using pistol primers in a hard recoiling rifle with a tube magazine. I'm missing parts of my original anatomy due to a magazine explosion. Lucky for me, it was a sedately loaded .44 Mag M92 Puma, not a M1886 45-70 with hunting loads. If it had been, I wouldn't be able to write this now. The sensitive Federal pistol primers were probably a contributing factor, so I use the "hardest" primers I can find now to load lever action cartridges, including using rifle primers when possible.

I also had the problem of light primer strikes with my Miroku M1886 ELW until I did the hammer strut modification. I had to do it twice, until the misfires stopped. Don't be afraid to do this modification. You'll have to do it if you are getting misfires now and want a reliable rifle. I screwed up the strut on a new M1895 by shortening the wrong leg, but got a replacement directly from the Winchester Parts Dept on their internet site. That was 5 years ago, so just be careful to shorten the right leg and you'll be OK. The safety still works fine, if I choose to use it.

As for accuracy, I can get about 3/4" at 50 yards with cast bullets, and 2-3" @100 with the Speer jacketed bullet. I installed a receiver sight and did the hammer strut modification at the same time. For me, installing a receiver sight cuts my group size in half. My best cast load so far is:
RCBS 45-405-FN, which has the correct ogive shape and crimping groove to match the no-throat of the new M1886.
Alloy: WW/2% Tin, which actually casts about a 415gr bullet
Sized: .459
CCI 200 Starline Brass
Reloader 7 46.5 gr for 1900 fps I live in AK, bear country.

Another load is 54 gr of Varget for about 1720 fps with the same other ingredients.

Good shooting