Gould Boolit

[Four Fingers of Death]

I am under the impression that the 330Gn Gould HP, which is still being made by Lyman was around in the days of Black Powder. I don't know where I was given that impression or if it is true.

I don't use my 45/70s for hunting, just Cowboy shooting (444, 44Mag, 375, 357Mag, 30/30, 32/20, 25/20 are used in levers, as well as a whole passel of bolt guns and a few single shots and couple of pump guns, but not the 45/70s, just not enough hunts).

I have a 1895 Cowboy now and was thinking of using it for Black Powder hunting.

When was it introduced? Whenever, I'm going to have to get one of these moulds. They are pure style as far as I'm concerned.

Four Fingers.

[WARD O]

The reference I've found lists Mr Gould as editor of a sporting magazine which was later to become "Field and Stream." The only thing I can find on introduction date is "the 1880's." My 1896 Winchester catalog reprint lists ammo with the Gould HP as being available.

Ward

[NickSS]

It was sometime during the 1880s as I have an article I got from Single shot Exchange Magazine which was written by an old market hunter. He started using a 45-70 in the 1870s but found they had too much penetration on deer so he started to cast split nose bullets (piece of paper clamped between the mold blocks) which worked better. Then he got a Gould mold and it worked so well that is all he used after that.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It was my impression that a Mr. Barlow of the Ideal/Lyman Company designed the bullet as an EXPRESS bullet for the 45-90 at Mr. Gould's request. BvT

[Glen]

The earliest Ideal Handbook I have is a reprint of #4 (originally published in 1890), and the Gould bullet is in that catalog, and had been around for a few years at that point, so yes, it dates back to the 1880s.

[JFE]

Hi Mick,

Like you say Lyman do still make a mould for the 45 cal HP Gould bullet. If you are looking to use it for paper punching you might be better off with a solid version as HP's are slow to make with a high rejection rate.

In case you arent aware CBE make a Gould look alike and can make it in solid and HP versions. If you werent interested in the HP you could have them make a 2 or more cavity mould. I have one in a HP and like it a lot but it is slow to use.

Joe

[Four Fingers of Death]

I would be using it for hunting only and for cowboy shooting I have a Big Lube Boolit from Darstardly Dan which should be just the ticket.

Thanks for the info, I was sure that it was a reallllllllll old mould style, that just increases it's cred points. :D

I thought CBE would have this one covered, but this is a piece of shooting / hunting history, the Lyman would be no better than the CBE (I have many CBE moulds, they are great moulds and I have been very happy with them), but I might buy an original this time. I like the idea of using a mould which has been in continual production for 129 Years!

Four Fingers

[6pt-sika]

I would be using it for hunting only and for cowboy shooting I have a Big Lube Boolit from Darstardly Dan which should be just the ticket.

Thanks for the info, I was sure that it was a reallllllllll old mould style, that just increases it's cred points. :D

I thought CBE would have this one covered, but this is a piece of shooting / hunting history, the Lyman would be no better than the CBE (I have many CBE moulds, they are great moulds and I have been very happy with them), but I might buy an original this time. I like the idea of using a mould which has been in continual production for 129 Years!

Four Fingers

I've used it for hunting and paper work .

Worked pretty well for me in both applications !

Also might add it shoots well in Marlin's with either ballard or Micro Groove rifling !

[Bigjohn]

Mick, I have a Martini Enfield which someone converted to .45/70. I have not slugged it's barrel yet but it seems to like the shorter boolits. If you are ordering a mould from get them to order in two and I will take one for the Martini.

Just let me know when it arrives and I can send them payment and details. Local dealer is having trouble getting LYMAN moulds for me, might be good to try a source closer to the eastern seaboard.

The "ELMER KEITH" mentions this mould in 'Hell, I was there!' if I am correct and I know paul Matthews has done some work with it, mention so in his books.

John

[Dale53]

I have the Gould bullet in a Lyman single cavity hollow point. It casts well, I get VERY few rejects. However, a good friend has a Lyman four cavity mould for this bullet in solid form. That makes for a VERY good combination. The solid bullets for practice and the "slower to produce" hollow points for hunting. It's GOOD to have friends:drinks:

I have a Ruger #3 rifle in 45/70 that is a near perfect companion for the Gould bullet for hunting. A favored load for me is a duplex load with 10% RL-7 and the rest a compressed load of Swiss 2F black powder. I have not yet chronographed this load but I assure you it will do the job on deer or hogs up to 150 yards or so (based entirely on trajectory as killing power is NOT an issue).

I also have a Marlin 1895 but have not yet used this bullet in the Marlin (it should work just fine, tho').

Dale53

[smokemjoe]

Very good in the French Gras rifle also.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm off to Sydney for the weekend, I'll check things out early next week. The Lyman moulds seem to be the same price at Lyman for the hollow point and the normal moulds, $US76.50.

"This is the famous 45-330 Gould Express bullet designed by John Barlow, founder of Ideal. Made for Mr. Gould, editor of Shooting and Fishing. Great reputation as a killer of large game. Superior performance in all 45 cal cartridges. (Hollow point)."

I copied tyhis from the Lyman site.

As far as I'm concerned, these moulds always should be genuine Lymans:

311291
311284
429421 (Elmer's Mould)
and the Gould boolit 457122.

Having said that I did buy a lovely NEI 311284 mould on a group buy here and a fat 429421 Group buy for a microgroove Marlin I had at the time. Cruise missiles my friend calls the 311284 copy, lovely mould.

Four Fingers.

I don't know if Lyman will ship to Australia, I'll check it out next week as I said.

[northmn]

I have used the Gould bullet on deer with good results. Shot one a little far back and found it stretched out. Usually find liver shot deer with their head up. Some have claimed that it is a little too much of a good thing and lacks penetration. Matthews stated one flattened out for him on a deer and switched to the 420 solid. He also claimed to drive it at about 16-1700 fps. Driven a BP speeds for which it was designed, about 13-1400 fps it works ok. the usual cast for BP is 1-16 tin to lead but I seem to remember somewhere that it was commonly cast at 1-16. I did make a nose punch that decreased the cavity and increased the weight to about 345 grains but have not tried it yet. Antimony alloys may make it fragment. Although I think WW is fairly malleable.

Northmn

[Catshooter]

Mick,

If Lyman won't ship to you, PM me. I'll fix ya up.


Cat

[Curtis44]

This is a great deer bullet without question. IMHO Matthews problems arose from driving a hard bullet way too fast. I have usually had complete penetration from ANY angle with 1/20 alloy or ww's + tin alloy at 1500fs or less. BP and duplex loads expand beautifully. When pushed harder they shed the front half but the rear half keeps penetrating more than adequately. I once shot a whitetail buck on the point of the near shoulder and found the rear half of the bullet under the hide on the far ham! The deer never moved. This is the only Gould i have recovered from 10 deer taken with this bullet. I wish lyman would come out with a series of Gould type bullets in 50, 45, 38, 35 and 32 calibers, maybe with gas checks. Too many folks want to make a 458 out of the 45/70 when it has more than enough power when loaded to its original design specifications.

[WHITETAIL]

Four Fingers, Send me a PM.
I could work with you, and
help you with this problem.:cbpour:

[Bigjohn]

LYMAN will ship to Australia, I have bought books direct and I ask them for a catalogue each year. Postage was rather steep.

Their online catalogue is very good.

John

[northmn]

This is a great deer bullet without question. IMHO Matthews problems arose from driving a hard bullet way too fast. I have usually had complete penetration from ANY angle with 1/20 alloy or ww's + tin alloy at 1500fs or less. BP and duplex loads expand beautifully. When pushed harder they shed the front half but the rear half keeps penetrating more than adequately. I once shot a whitetail buck on the point of the near shoulder and found the rear half of the bullet under the hide on the far ham! The deer never moved. This is the only Gould i have recovered from 10 deer taken with this bullet. I wish lyman would come out with a series of Gould type bullets in 50, 45, 38, 35 and 32 calibers, maybe with gas checks. Too many folks want to make a 458 out of the 45/70 when it has more than enough power when loaded to its original design specifications.

I believe Matthews claimed to have used a soft bullet, but I agree it was too fast. He claimed it flatened out like a 50 cent piece. I have trouble believing in the penetration issue on a deer and you have reinforced that belief. About the only time penetration is much of an issue is with a Texas Heart shot. Most of the shots I like to take are broadside or reasonably angled. If you shoot through them thats about as good as it gets. As to pushing the 45-70 too hard, it really is not going to shoot all that flat when loaded hot and it really does have pretty adequate power at BP or near BP velocities for most critters.

Northmn

[JFE]

LYMAN will ship to Australia, I have bought books direct and I ask them for a catalogue each year. Postage was rather steep.

Their online catalogue is very good.

John

Lock, Stock and Barrel will ship to Oz but make sure you ask them to send using USPS International Flat Rate box or parcel.

Joe

[longbow]

Mick:

Maybe a little off subject but I had a Lyman 457124 385 gr. solid that shot very well out of my 1895 Marlin microgroove barrel.

I had tried several others but this one just worked well with both BP and smokeless loads. I never did try the 330 gr. Gould but know it was popular. Not saying you shouldn't get the Gould, just saying that you might want to look at this one too. Options are good and more moulds are always good.

Longbow

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yep, can always fit another mould or two in the cupboard/

[Four Fingers of Death]

Lo and behold, not a Gould, but close:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Reloading%20and%20Casting/LeeHollowpointMoulds2.jpg

it is a 405Gn FNHP which I picked up from a deceased estate, also picked up a 44 HP mould:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/4fingermick/Reloading%20and%20Casting/LeeHollowpointMoulds5.jpg

It is a bit light for the 444, but should go well in the 44Mag on feral dogs.

Never know whats downstairs :D

Four Fingers.

[MtGun44]

Is a feral dog the same thing as a dingo?

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

Is a feral dog the same thing as a dingo?

Bill

nope, hunting dogs lost and gone wild/ ran off from farms (or ranchs in yank speak), etc. Sometimes interbred with dingos, but not always.

They make awesome predators in the aussie bush as they have no competition and run riot killing stock.

We usually howl them up.

[StrawHat]

Mick,

Just adding to what has already been said, the Gould boolit is about the only hunting boolit you need for the 45-70. When cast soft, I cast it 20-1, and loaded over a case full of black powder I have never recovered a boolit from a deer. Penetration is not an issue if the velocity is kept to black powder speeds as that is what the thing was designed for. I have used mine in several different rifles and the result is always the same. Meat in the freezer.

It has been written about by quite a few of the well known writers and they all seem to be unamimous in their praise of its performance. One even wrote that if your hunting rifle won't perform with the Gould bullet, it probably won't shoot anything else well either.


...for cowboy shooting I have a Big Lube Boolit from Darstardly Dan which should be just the ticket.



Nothing against the BL boolit but have you considered the original collar button for the 45-70? Designed, I believe, by Springfield, for gallery loads in the 45-70. A group buy was run on this one a while ago. Weighs slightly more than a round ball so lot's of savings in lead. Great boolit.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Nothing against the BL boolit but have you considered the original collar button for the 45-70? Designed, I believe, by Springfield, for gallery loads in the 45-70. A group buy was run on this one a while ago. Weighs slightly more than a round ball so lot's of savings in lead. Great boolit.

I have the 45 Collar Button group Buy mould. I thought it was a 452 mould. I never got around to casting anything with it, just got it and put it in with the other group buy moulds to be lee-mented.

Was there two group buys or is this a rifle mould?

The 45/70 will be used on steel targets at 50 yards. Will it feed in the 1895?

[StrawHat]

I have not cast anything with the GB Collar Button mold yet but I believe it is a rifle bullet.

They can be sized down quite a bit as I used castings from an Ideal Mold to feed a 44 Colt.