My first Paper Patched bullet!

[303Guy]

Well, not knowing what the hell I am doing ..... this is my first ever patched bullet.

From the mould
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F.jpg

Patched, lubed and loaded
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-750F.jpg

Recovered bullet!!!
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-751F.jpg

Primer to show good pressure (Zero leading or fouling of any sort in the bore!)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-752F.jpg

PS That's a 30 year old case that's still going strong! Used exclusively in a 107 year old rifle!

[pdawg_shooter]

Easy, isn't it? Why fight leading, low velocity, and poor accuracy when a scrap of paper works so well.

[303Guy]

I don't know about it being so easy!:mrgreen:
I struggled a bit and it didn't actually fit the throat - the soft and thick patch pushed back but I shot it anyway.
Now to do it properly![smilie=1:

[303Guy]

... size the bullets .001 to .0015 over bore diameter ...
Yesterday I tried making a mould to cast just over bore diameter but I otched the filler hole. If my job doesn't evapourate today, I will try it again. The bullet I used is over bore but under groove diameter. It is tapered so as to fit the throat. In my speak it is 7.84mm at the base and 7.7mm just behind the ogive. (Translating - .3087 and .303). The bore is .304 and groove is .312 or .313 ? (I don't remember which! It doesn't matter - the bullet only has to fit the throat).

I used news print on my first attempt. I'll get some cigarette paper today and try that.

The reason for the gas check is that's what closes off the mould base (nose pour).

[pdawg_shooter]

Try some 16# printer paper. In my 303 I size .304, patch with 16# printer paper, lube with BAC and run through a .414 push through die. Works great!

[docone31]

Pdawg meant .314. I size mine to .314 also.
I might six the gas check. I patch mine without it.
What is the fluff in the photo with the expanded pieces? Did some of the patch make it to the target?
Did you notice the different "feel" when firing patched loads? Mine has a different feel overall when firing patched as compared to jacketeds, or cast alone.
Nice looking patch load.
Welcome aboard!

[runfiverun]

docone he needs the g/c it is the base of his homemade mold and the stuff in the picture is from his boolit trap.
303 the paper p-dawg is referring to is plain ol printer paper.

[303Guy]

Thank you, docone31.
The fluff is from the rags in the 'firing tube'. I did use an amount of cotton ball to fill the case. Cast bullets do indeed have a different 'feel'. A very pleasant push, would describe it. Just the feel of it alone would make me want to shoot them. I'm afraid I stuffed up on my 'patch bullet mould' and now I cannot do it again since my job sust evapourated - it's a recession thing!:cry: (You'd think now I have time to go shooting and hunting but instead I have to go job hunting!):groner:

What is 16# printer paper? Where would I expect to get it?

[303Guy]

Thanks, runfiverun . You were ahead of me!

My new mould that I botched was supposed to work without the g/c. Actually, I can cast without a g/c by simply using an inverted g/c as the base plug. Trouble is, it leaves a small cup. Is that a bad thing?

[303Guy]

Right! I tried another trick, this time with ZIG-ZAG Rice paper. This stuff is thin and gets sooo soft when wet. I used a 'normal' cast bullet which is big enough to seat in the case onto the 'dough-nut' (unsized neck). I gave this bullet two wraps, let it dry them dipped it in my trusty 'waxy-lube' and seated it on top of 38.6grs AR2209. I did another bullet with a smaller diameter and no g/c. I have not looked for the bullet remnants as I don't expect to find much. Pressure was 'nice' (not too low and not too high). The bore stayed nice and shiny clean! This is the exiting part. I did have a slight mishap though. I extracted the loaded round and spilled some powder![smilie=1: On the up-side, the PP was reasonably intact so I just reloaded it and fired it. Now to load up a few test loads for range testing! (I have this thing about lube).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-768F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-770F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-769F.jpg
Seriously, these are Paper Patched!

:drinks:

[303Guy]

Recovered a few bullets.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-772F.jpg

Now I am getting expansion and reasonable pressure with 38grs AR2209/(H4350) One of the fired cases showed a strange looking primer. The firing pin indent was pushed out but the rest of it showed no 'squaring'. The recovered bullet was normal - no high velocity.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-775F.jpg

It's as though the pressure was sustained longer than usual. The bullet was tight so maybe it got pushed back into the case.

[docone31]

You can really see the file marks on the recovered casting in the center.
I see really rounded edges on the outer portion of the primer cup. The protrusion is interesting. I wonder if it is not the primer itself.
I know you stated you roll your prime casting on a file prior to patching, however, the two outer recovereds do not show file marks, except possibly the left one.
Are you prime sizing all the same diameter?
I notice, light rifleing marks on the left one, unclear rifleing on the center, and distinct rifleing marks on the right hand one.
However, looks good to me!
I have not recovered one yet! They burrow so far into the berm, I cannot get them. I have recovered jacketeds from the same berm, and rifle. My patched loads go deeply into the berm. It is Sugar Sand, so even the jacketeds show little deformation.

[303Guy]

Quite right. Only the middle bullet had file knurling. It's interesting that the file marks are still there under the groove impressions! The first bullet is showing scratches from sand in the bullet trap.

Are you prime sizing all the same diameter?
Actually, I'm not sizing anything - that's how the bullets come out the mould. But you are right, they are not the same diameter. I have three different moulds I have been experimenting with. That was very astute! I am not sure that I used the same paper on all of them either.

My new trick is to use a backward g/c as a mould base. I fired one of those and there was no apparent base deformation from obturation and no obvious flame cutting. However, something I did caused some fouling in the bore on one side only. I take the view that if 3/4 of the bore can stay clean then so can all of it!

I should add, as I get more practice, so the easier the whole thing becomes!

Just one quetion, how come all these theories about excessive spin on cast bullets causing bullet disintegration on exit of the muzzle, don't seem to hold true with PP? And why would PP prevent bullet base obturation? (OK, that was two questions!):mrgreen:


It is Sugar Sand, so even the jacketeds show little deformation. What is sugar sand?

[docone31]

I believe, the non-compressability of paper eliminates to a large extent obturation.
On spin, I have another.
While a conventional gas checked casting goes through the barrel, the rifleing "draws" the metal. That, coupled with the rifleing engraveing into lead, and haveing three sides being "drawn", it produces fractional weakness on the rifleing engraveing.
With the non-compressability of paper, rather than drawing during fireing, it is swaged. As you saw from your three fired recovered examples, the rifleing lands were clear, but, unlike plain cast riflleing marks.
The rifleing is there with paper, but the metal is buffered by the paper.
This prevents stress moments within the casting to become cleaveages.
Just my random thoughts on this.

[303Guy]

You are a very clever man, docone31! It all makes sense now! Now that you have mentioned it, there is also the aspect of surface heating of the PCB surcase - that wouldn't help.

I have just fired my next experimental bullet. This one is one of my original 243griners loaded on top od 37grs AR2209/H4350. Primer flattening is no different to my normal jacketed loads (now obsolete!):wink:

Take a look.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-780F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-786F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-784F.jpg

I do notice that the g/c seems to leave a concave base, but it is even.
The patch got 'scraped' off the boolit as it went into the neck. I left it just like that and gave it a hot dip in my lube. So remaining exosed bullet had a single wrap of very thin cigarette paper. The bore is nice and clean!

I have this theory that the longer and heavier the boolit, the more forgiving it becomes as far as boolit defects are concerned. (I also think it would be more forgiving from boolit weight loss on contact with game).

PS I now now what caused that strange looking primer - my finger getting in the way of the striker and softening the blow. Had a few misfires and a now piece of skin missing!

[docone31]

My .303 does seem to like the heavier castings.
Have you tried twisting a tail on your patch?
On blood letting, it is no good unless you bleed at least once!
How do you get in the way?
Seems kinda awkward. My finger is no where near the striker during fireing.

[303Guy]

It's from having to hold the rifle with the muzzle pressed into the firing tube hole.

I did try a tail twist but it came off - paper too soft while wet. My current lot of bullets still have g/c which actually cuts the patch. I might try opening the neck a little to seat the bullet then setting it back with the bullet in place. I just don't have the right size die right now. (Actually, I do - I could use my 357 bullet puller as a collet sizer!)

I can see how this paper patching thing can be addictive! It's like beer - one just has to make sure the beer in the next can is as good as the first!:mrgreen:
Now I got me some 'tissue paper' and a piece of tracing paper but the shot did not have 'vellum' although they knew what it was.

[docone31]

I had spoken of "feathers" on the few I tried with gas checks. Each tail tore in at least one spot. Once I stopped useing gas checks, the tearing became extremely minimal.
I know, the molds you are makeing recquire the gas check. If you get a chance, make a mold that does not. Perhaps a nose pour.
I definately give you a great deal of credit makeing your molds. Good for you!
Here is another thought.
You are probably rolling by hand. Either on a flat surface, or free hand. Try a cigarette rolling machine! That is the technique I use. I get some real tight patches, that dry very tight.
With that technique, I use notebook paper, or printer paper. Both measure the same.
I get some really tight, strong patches. Definate confetti on firing!
My .303 British, when I fired jacketed loads, it was like I couldn't put both hands on my butt. With patched loads, I am getting clover leafs at 100yds full tilt. I had to bed the barrel as the heat of firing changed the POI dramatically. Once bedded useing the three point bedding reccomended for target shooting, it calmed right down. I under sized some patches, and smeared valve lapping compound on them, very lightly, and that really cleaned out my bore! I had hammer marks, after firing the loads, a mirror without steps. Just plain old sharp rifleing.
Seating the patched boolitt is an issue. Conventional .303 dies are too small in diameter. I found that out when loading my first series of patches. The dies cut the patches, pushed the boolitts too far in the case, just in general made crap. I fired them anyway. Once modified, my dies seat my patched loads very well.
I do think you are on the right track. Cover the base somehow, and see the difference.
When I first started seating my patched boolitts, I used a drill bit to wobble in the neck. That allowed the boolitt to enter the case without tearing. The seating die then compressed the neck with out tearing the base.

[303Guy]

Thanks docone31. Seating die - I never thought of actually using mine! I have been pushing the bullets in by had and that was it. I did try opening up a neck with a tool I had made a while back for that purpose. The 245gr boolit went in tightly without damaging the very fragile tissue paper patch (three wraps). This one was intended for my two groove No4. The long and large boolit chambered tightly and extracted! (I did not size the neck after seating). Because the No4 has a large muzzle device I cannot fire it properly in my 'firing tube' so I used a smaller charge of Lil'Gun. Pressure could have been higher but the groove held it's grip and left no sign of leading or flame cutting - which was a problem with this barrel. So maybe I can shoot PP heavies out this gun!

(For some reason, I cannot upload the pics).

Well, I have work to do so must stop playing for a while.[smilie=s:

[docone31]

It has indeed been a pleasure.
Till next time.

[303Guy]

Right - to hell with working (got halfway through and found I don't have any kero!). So.....

I know, the molds you are makeing recquire the gas check. If you get a chance, make a mold that does not. Perhaps a nose pour.
Like this? :mrgreen:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-791F.jpg

Here it is patched. I twisted the tail. This time I did not wet the paper - instead I dipped it straight into the molten 'waxy-lube'. (It's tissue paper which is a tad fragile when wet!) Next time I will leave the base part unwaxed.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-795F.jpg

I will go get one of those cigarette rollers - the two shops I looked in did not have them.


Oh heck! I better walk to the nearest shop and get some kero!

[longbow]

303Guy:

I make very simple base pour push out moulds that work very well for paper patching, They are very easy to make with just a small lathe.

They can be either bored or cut with a D reamer. I find the larger calibers are easy enough to bore depending on the boolit shape but smaller like .30 cal are easier (for me anyway) to make a D reamer and cut the cavity with that.

I have attached a couple of photos of one of my push out moulds.

[303Guy]

thanks for that longbow. Somewhere along the line with all the happenings, I forgot about the D reamer. I did modify a drill bit to the shape I thought I wanted (It's not as easy as it looks - shaping and sharpening an ogive shaped spiral!) and this is the result;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F.jpg

Unfortunately, I was aiming for a large, throat fitting cast bullet - that was back in the 'dark ages' before I caught up with 19th centuary technology!:-D
My last attempted mould specifically for PP was OK but I screwed up with the nose pour hole. This is the bullet;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-791F.jpg

The biggest difference - apart from the size - is that this mould has no chamfer at the base for g/c insertion.

I have been thinking of a sprew plate design. Another idea is a middle split mould (with sprew plate). The idea there is that the portion of the bullet that sits in the neck would be parallel and the forward section tapered. The two halves would 'spiggot' together. Removing the bullet would then be a matter of splitting the ould and removing the bullet from the base half somehow (quick pull with the fingers? Hot!) The thinking is that the base could be machined to give a perfect shape without sharp edges than can feather and so on. Well, there is a fella at 'work' who might be persuaded to make me this mould by pulling his guilt strings - I got the chop and he didn't!:mrgreen: He's a good machinist but also very busy (these hyper-active people are like that - busy).

Mmmm...... you have given me an idea! Nose pour with sprew plate, split mould with base pushout. The nose section will always come off as it tapers.

In the meantime, what I intend doing is making a base plug from brass and using one of my existing moulds. (That I can get someone to do).

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-795F.jpg

This bullet, by the way, is the perfect size and shape I was aiming for. If I can re-work that nose pour hole - perhaps change it to a nose push out - I would be on my way! The nose ogive is 7.6mm dia, the nose taper starts at 7.7mm and tapers to the base at 8.05mm. This is the size I had determined fits the throat just right (and is the largest base to actually enter the throat and still fit the unsized neck). I used three wraps of tissue paper - dry and dipped into molten waxy-lube and rotated in fingers to squeeze off the excess. All this particular bullet has to do is chamber and extract without falling out the case.

Yooo Hooo! 19th centuary, here I come![smilie=w:

Ironically, my rifle has a 19th centuary design throat - for PP bullets!:cbpour:

[docone31]

Hmmm.
Looks like you are onto something there.
I have found, the gas check indent on my molds aids in my wrapping. It is not sharpened by sizeing.
I wonder, if you can somehow, make a push out, as both a base of the casting, and dead end, that has a ring that duplicates a gas check indent on the casting prior to push out.
My patches are hard when sized. The wax I use in sizeing just makes them shiney and seemingly water proof. At least a little. I wonder, also, if you are makeing a nose pour, why not make it a flat nose? Like for a tublar magazine.
That way, the sprue could be cut and make the nose, the casting could be pushed out.
Well, as I write this, I can see the design dynamics that might make it less than simple.
Keep plugging away! I am interested in seeing what develops. I bet no one has really done any research on paper patched loads with smokeless in almost a century.
For King and Country!
19th century, here we come!

[303Guy]

I wonder, if you can somehow, make a push out, as both a base of the casting, and dead end, that has a ring that duplicates a gas check indent on the casting prior to push out.That would be quite easy, yes. That would cure the feathers and allow a base pour should I choose and would allow me to repare my botched mould. Mmmmm...... thanks for the idea!
:cbpour:

To the 19th centuary!

[docone31]

I have had these thoughts stored up for years.
It is my pleasure, especially to see someone experimenting.
I wish I could.

[303Guy]

It has been my pleasure too! I shall do the best I can to try out these new ideas.
:drinks:

It occurs to me that it wouldn't take much to take whatever mould product I have and size them down to whatever diameter I need! Easier, I should think than trying to cast to a specific size. It's the base section that is hard to get right. I like the idea of a 'stepped base' .
:lovebooli

[45nut]

A very interesting thread and it pleases me to no end to see the enthusiasm and determination not to mention the progress with the help of friends here.
Threads like these make everything so worthwhile and much easier to forget the tribulations and focus on the real reason we all come together.

[longbow]

I make the push out moulds because they are easy and I am lazy.

Just take a piece of round bar at 1 1/2" diameter, drill through 3/6" for .30 cal or 1/4" for .44 or larger. Bore or ream the cavity and nose form, make a sprue plate and simple handle then lap.

The bullets drop out without effort and are perfectly cylindrical. I have shot these modeled after the Lyman 314299 (no lube grooves of course) out of my .303 tumble lubed with good success. Even better for paper patching. I find that a body of about 0.304" wrapped to groove diameter suits my .303. Base pour and no need for gas check when paper patched.

I have also made boolits somewhat undersize then knurl to allow lubing. This also seems to work well for me with little in the way of leading problems.

I have shot my .44 Marlin with smooth boolits for many years and use a grease cookie like BP shooters, or paper patch, or knurl. All work.

I have made an insert for "boattail" base which didn't work well. Easy enough to cast with but accuracy wasn't there.

I have not yet tried Johnsons paste was but it is next on my list.

Also, I normally use COW filler for my .303 smooth boolit loads. So far accuracy seems quite good and leading is not a problem.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thank you for your kind words, 45nut. It is indeed a pleasure to be among you folk (very advanced 19th centuary folk, I might add - back in the 21st centuary, they are still fooling around with jacketed stuff! :groner: )
You folk are rather clever too! (I mean that!)


I make the push out moulds because they are easy and I am lazy.
A man after my own heart!:drinks:
Thanks for the info, longbow.
So, BT's don't work. I had contemplated that idea but now I will just stay with flat base or as docone31 has suggested, a stepped base like g/c bullets have. docone31 also suggested I try twisting the tail so I did. (I found that tissue paper is so thin and weak that I decided to 'strengthen' it using an idea from this thread, that being to use diluted white glue. I applied the glue to one side of the tissue paper and dried it then wrapped it. Here it is;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-801F.jpg

(I'm not sure whether it looks more like a toad 'stool' or an illegal substance!)

[docone31]

You have been forgeing ahead in unexplored territory for sure.
However, try this,
Size to .308, cut some lined notebook paper to 1" strips across the grain, cut these at 1 3/8" with opposing 45* cuts.
Get a cigarette roller, lay a soaking wet patch on the roller, set the prime casting on it with the pointed tip towards the nose, and the cut back towards the tail with the casting splitting the difference between the top and bottom of the patch. Roll it, take it out, twist the tail, let dry.
Use some Auto Wax, lightly and push it through a final sizer to the size you have found. My #1MKIII loves .314, snip the tail leaving just a nub covering the base. Load and be impressed!
Your molds are makeing great looking castings! They should do real well.
I use 44.4gns of Surplus 4895 with my loads.
I get black necks with less.
No square corners on the primers.

[longbow]

I don't paper patch much but when I do, I also twist the tails because I find it easier to get a tight finish to the wrap (there is that lazy thing again). Several folks here fold a lip instead of twisting and claim is is as easy and gives superior accuracy.

With large caliber boolits I can believe the boolit can be stood up on the lip to keep it in place but .30 cal would take a jig to hold the boolits vertical to keep weight on the base. Maybe a loading block would do? Mine doesn't.

As for the boattail thing. It didn't work for me and I have also attached Brent Danielson's web page with boattail paper patched boolit info (and other good stuff):

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB_files/Page1187.htm

I thought I had some good info from Dan Theodore as well but can't find it.

Longbow

[pdawg_shooter]

Some time back I bought 1000 assorted 30cal "seconds". There were a number of 155gr SBT in the box. I found 2 wraps of 9#, a little lube, and a pas through a .314 die gave me great .303 practice rounds.

[303Guy]

Thanks docone31

I'll be heading out to find a cigarette roller today. Sizing my existing castings might take a little longer as I have to get someone to make me the die. In the meantime I am trying reinforcing the thin tissue paper with diluted white glue. (That's the twisted tail one, which I have already loaded but without trimming the tail). I will try the reinforced tissue without the tail on some g/c bullets and see if I can use them in my No4. It has a larger throat than my NoI. It's problem is it only has two grooves and I am not sure that will be enough to hold the boolit at full tilt! (I won't know until I try).

Thanks for the Brent Danielson's link longbow

Interesting to know why BT's don't work. Interesting to learn how to make them work! That wax sabot Brent tried is what I normally do! I actually wanted a BT to hold the sabot/wax wad and to eliminate rifling tails on plain cast. PP eliminates that anyway but a BT mould would eliminate base feathers. So many things to experiment with, so little time!

pdawg_shooter, I had thought of that but wasn't too sure of the cost benefits, but, you have given me an idea. My No.I has a mint barrel and would make a great long range rifle except 303 bullets aren't suitable. However, there are any number of 30cal J-word bullets suitable for long range! (It makes sense using that rifle for long range as it has a long barrel and is heavy and I believe it is accurate - I certainly was quite impressed with it using standard Hornaday and Speer bullets. 1 1/4 MOA I think - or was it less? mmmmm. No matter, when I missed it was always my fault!)

Say... on an aside, do you folks find 303 Brit case don't grow in length and last forever?

[303Guy]

Well, here is a 245gr bullet ready and finger wrapped in glue reinforce tissue paper. This one is intended for the larger throated No4.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-803F.jpg

[303Guy]

Well, the glue reinforced one failed! Here are some new efforts;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-815F.jpg
I'm still lubing with waxy-lube to seal and hold the bullet in place. The patched bullet gets seated just like that then dipped in the molten waxy-lube. When this lot of bullets are used up I will stop using this method - it's the only way I can get these oversize bullets to fit.

Loaded round being extracted from chamber;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-814F.jpg
That cord thing you see is my carry cord. It clips to my back-pack strap and leaves me hands free! It's great for 'elbow-itis'.:mrgreen: The No4 has a factory made cord attatchment - where the rear sight used to be.

And last but not least, my paper cutting machine! (I'm still doing 'square' cuts here because of lack of cig paper roller).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-818F-1.jpg

[docone31]

What I do to make my cuts,
I took a piece of Venetian blind our "cats" broke off the window. The blind is slightly larger than 1" in width. After finding my length, and cutting it to the shape I wanted, I then cut the piece of blind so I could just set my paper in the blind and cut to shape. I usually cut about 200 patches at a time, so I can roll 50 and have more for later.
I marked my blind for what it is, it does both my .303, and .30s. They are the same length.
I like things simple. No glue, just water, roll em up, and size them.
The rolled patches fit in a 9mm cartridge tray. I usually toss the boxes, and keep the trays.

[pdawg_shooter]

Well, here is a 245gr bullet ready and finger wrapped in glue reinforce tissue paper. This one is intended for the larger throated No4.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-803F.jpg

NO GLUE! The patch MUST leave the bullet at the muzzle! If it sticks to the bullet accuracy will be non-existent.

[docone31]

I told him that also.
At least now he will know why.
As long as he is useing glue impregnated wraps, he will never know the accuracy we get from paper.
Once he gets the roller, and uses plain paper, we will hear the excitement all the way over to here!
He gets some real KUDOS for trying!
That will be some real heavy loading. Good candidate for BP also. The Enfield was originally a BP cartridge.

[303Guy]

NO GLUE! The patch MUST leave the bullet at the muzzle! I know. The glue reinforced patch was to keep the path from 'breaking' on chambering. But it's flexible and while it does not stick to lead...... The bullet itself is over groove size so it might still work. Anyway, that idea is a dead end. I have tried a glue smear on the outside. In the end, it seems I will have no choice but to size those prime casts prior to patching. (Oh, I did try egg white - that goes brittle when dry. Too much trouble!) Nope - I shall aim for the right sized bullet and two wraps of printing paper! My clumsy fingers are not good at handling delicate cig paper.

I will also have to give up on waxy-lubing those cig PP's - the wax will glue the patch onto the bulle I am sure. Well, it might.

:Fire:One question, since I have this batch of large diameter long and heavy for caliber, g/c'ed bullets, what would happen if I raise the chamber pressure? Would the obturation of the bullet shread waxed cig paper?
This would be in my No4, two groove. This particular bore for some reason does not seem to lead (it must be the rust pits holding lube or something).[smilie=1:


The Enfield was originally a BP cartridge. I'm thinking about that!:mrgreen:

[docone31]

I had thought of the softer papers. When I first started out, I used Meade Acadieme' Traceing paper. It dried hard!!!! I got good results with that.
I then tried regular notebook paper. It also dried hard. With the Meade, I did three wraps, with the notebook paper, I did two. In actuality, two wraps ended up being larger in diameter than the three wraps of Meade. With your large diameter, heavy, casting, size it to .308, wrap up to .317-.318 then size to .314. Check and all if you want to.
I think, with the correct powder and that casting, you will get great results! That big, heavy, is a definate for BP.
Meantime, get that roller, or make one! All they are are two rollers, an apron in a frame. The tension of the roll tightens the patch while rolling.
You have touched lots of banannas here, and it has been good for us. Your trials have answered many thoughts and questions, both I have had and I am sure others have. I have never seen photos like you presented, and a photo is worth lots of words.
You have done great!
Now it is time you realize the fruits of your labour!
You done us all good here.

[303Guy]

Thank you for your kind words, docone31!

Does this base skirt matter? It is caused by the use of a backward g/c as a mould plug.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-823F.jpg

I am now trying tracing paper because of its brittleness and it is thin (and a lot easier to handle when wet). No chance of twisting the tail. This bullet is 192gr and is slightly smaller than my others. With two wraps it is very difficult to seat, even after sizing with my collet bullet puller!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-827F.jpg

Got to get a pair of sizer dies!

[docone31]

You are getting there.
Get yourself a .314 sizing die. A collet die is not going to do it. You will be lucky if it fires with any accuracy at all. With a sizing die, it will be like a laser!
You are one dedicated dude!
I respect that.

[303Guy]

Thank you!:drinks:

It's easy to be dedicated when one is having fun!:mrgreen:

I got that rolling machine. It doesn't work the way they say but run it backwards and ....

So, my very first machine rolled bullet is drying! (Would you believe I botched my earlier tracing paper patch? I gave it three wraps! Doh!:oops:

I made an egg white on cig paper patch and it dried quite thin. I had to seat it in a paper cup and then I crimped the mouth - Doh! How's the cup and patch supposed to come out intact? Oh well ..... I've made bigger mistakes than that before!:mrgreen:
But aside from the crimp, the loaded round chambers and extracts from the MkI just fine. I upped the powder charge since the bullet is lighter. When I trimmed excess patch from the nose, it fell away beautifully.

Gotta go load up that by now dried tracing paper (two wraps) patched bullet!:cbpour:

[303Guy]

This it. The funny appearance on the front part is from sizing the wet patch in a mould.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-830F.jpg

I lost it - will go make another now. :oops:

[docone31]

They are looking better and better!
I have fired many triple wraps of traceing paper through my Smelly. They ended up less than diameter for my rifle. I then went to two wraps of notebook paper.
That looks like a good tight wrap!
I just tuck my tail up in the base, and let the fired powder flatten it.
Those are looking better and better indeed. Lots of lube though, I use very little, just enough to get it through the sizing die.
My patches are running 1-1.5 thou over groove.
You look as excited as I was when I patched for my Smelly! When I then hit the target at 100yds, I couldn't contain my excitement! No flippers, no wild shots, and a good group! My patches also hit higher with the same weight as jacketeds.
It is great watching your progress!
I stumbled directly onto my size and technique. Size at .308, wrap to .314, hit the target!
I think you will get such accuracy from your .303, you will need to bed it to get all of it that patches can use.
Getting better, and better.

[303Guy]

Thank you.

Now a question.
How do I seat these boolits? The patch is iether loose in the neck or the it wrinkles. I tried sizing a boolit in a mould (it pushes out as per the casting) but the boolit moves in the patch. The surprized me since the boolit tapers down to the nose. But it made me wonder what would stop the boolit from leaving the patch behind in the bore?

Another question.
I can't seem to get the hang of feeding wet paper into my rolling machine. I have taken to rolling the patch dry by fingers then wetting them in the roller and rolling out the water. That seems to get them nice and tight and smooth. I can't get the tracing paper to stay wrapped when dry so I put a dab of glue under the trailing corner.

Thank you folks for the encouragement and support. It's been great!:drinks:

(Of course, I don't expect to make real progress until I have the sizers I need - I was hoping I could use one of my earlier moulds as a sizer).:roll:

I am rather keen to get my No4 running on cast bullets in the 220gr range at hopefully around 2200fps. Thats for hunting.

[docone31]

Ok,
The patch will slide around with nothing to prevent it. That is one of the reasons I twist the tail and leave it there. I cut it and leave just a nub. The patched bottom of the casting, acts as a dam to prevent movement other than compressing during sizeing.
To use the machine to roll on a boolitt,
Lay the patch on the space between the roller. You want the first part of the 45* angle to start the roll so there is no open tip once it is rolled.
The wet patch will be 90* to the rollers. The tip will be between the two rollers. The boolitt will be placed so the patch is where you want it to be on the finished boolitt. I tend to leave less than 1/2 of the tail portion of the patch open, so the rest rolls on the boolitt.
The roller should have the opening roller away from you when you roll. You roll the apron on the adjustable roller so it pulls the patch into the apron. the patch will roll on the boolitt. I usually roll it a couple of times more to really roll out the water in the paper. I pop the patched boolitt out, twist the tail carefully, and set to dry.
The paper will stretch on rolling, and shrink on drying. I do not have wrinkled nose paper on my boolitts.
It will take practice, but, once you master it, you will be able to pop them out.
With the patches crunching on sizeing.
Possibly, not haveing a base wrap, and too much sizeing interferes with easy sizeing. Also, you might try rolling the land less boolitt on a file to engrave teeth marks on the sides. This will help in gripping.
The main thing is to get them rolled.
When I first started, I did them backwards. The paper would come out as I rolled.
Hang in there, you will dial it in.

[303Guy]

Thanks. Will go try it now.

[docone31]

A pleasure.
Several folks here walked me through exactly what you are going through. I mean frustration galore!!!!
I forgot to add,
Take just a dab of Auto Wax as sizeing lube to size your patched boolitts. The sizer will push off the excess, and the wax makes a nice shiney surface.
An irony, you are getting the issues I thought I was going to when I first sized my patches down! They actually just slid through the sizer.
You have come a long way.
Take photos, we will critique, laugh, lie, etc.....
Meantime, you will develop some great loads.

[303Guy]

Right, I did it! The trick with tissue paper is to square cut it and only wet the bit going into the roller. The tail is waayy too soft to twist so I just mashed it against the base.

This is straight out the roller - which is working better now that the apron has stretched a little.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-834F-1.jpg

I forgot to knurl the casting. Doesn't matter - this one will fit the throat and neck just fine.

Now to hold the bullet securely in the case ..... !:roll:

Actually, this is not frustrating at all because I know it I will get it in the end. Heaps of fun though! And great getting your feed-back!:drinks:

Now I am itching to load up a few test rounds and try them on the range!

[docone31]

I am itching to see results!

[303Guy]

Say... aah... ummm.... docone31, have you by any chance been waiting for me to try rolling wet printing paper? :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

I just did and it aint easy! Tissue paper is actually easier! :mrgreen:

I just found some old cast bullets I made many years ago, and tried patching them with printing paper - I'll just go back to tissue paper!:mrgreen:

I also found some commercial cast 90gr, 32 bullets - They were poor as cast but when I patched them, .... mmmmm. Well, they fit the unsized necks just fine. I'm wondering whether they will shoot OK with a PP. (Hoping, at least!):Fire:

[6.5 mike]

303 guy. I've been following this from the boat. Seems like you've really taken to the
paper patching.
I roll some of mine on a old double cut file, it helps grip the tracing paper better. I'm still doing my rolling caveman style, with my fingers.
If you have some johnsons paste wax, try it for lube. It seals the edges of the wrapped boolit very well, thanks Docone 31.
Ya'll keep posting, I'll keep learning.

[docone31]

I have never wrapped with tissue/silkspan. I do know it is tough stuff though.
When I built my old school radio control gliders, some of them, especially Hank Struck designs, from the old Frank Zaic Company in Brooklyn NY., we would put silkspan on the wings, damp, use Nitrate Dope to adhere it in place, and let the tissue/silkspan dry. It would shrink and all the wrinkles, even the corners, went away.
Good stuff.
However, I found wet priner paper to have the same charateristics. In reality, the tissue/silkspan was tougher when wet. I could see where it could make a good solid wrap with enough layers.
A dab of JPW, and sizeing should be a snap. It will make a good shiney wrap.
Looking forward to your range results.
I actually looked more forward to my whoopsies than success. I wanted to really dial in a reliable, efficient wrap. I love casting, wrapping, and reloading. I am busy now, cooking off asphalt off roof boots outside. I will ingot inside after I get the pitch off. I use the pitch in my jewelery repair. I keep heating the asphalt untill it gets almost brittle. A smooth black. I pour it into something I can hold in my bench vise. I then heat whatever I want to set stones, or machine a setting. Once done, I flame the piece gently, pluck it out, and let it soak in denatured alcohol for a couple of days. I also use it when I do engraveing on flat surfaces. I heat the piece and let it set into the pitch. When It cools, it holds the piece very well. when I am done, I heat the piece and lift it off and do the denatured alcohol thing.
BadaBing! BadaBoom!
Total recycleing!

[303Guy]

I'm still doing my rolling caveman style, with my fingers.I haven't mastered the rolling machine yet. I am preping some suitable boolits I have, caveman style too. :mrgreen:

[6.5 mike]

Old habits die hard. I posted that when I saw your boolits didn't have lube grooves for the paper to grip, though it might help. I've been tucking the tails on mine under
like yours, seems to work for me.
Post your results when you can, I want to see how well this works.

[303Guy]

docone31, can I use pitch to 'glue' my bullets into the neck? The old Brit rounds were creosote sealed and wadded.

By Jove I think I may have got it! Patching an insized, as cast bullet to fit both chamber and case neck. This example drops into the throat of the No4 with the base level with the shoulder/neck. It just fits into the neck by hand without tearing the tissue paper. I'm not sure that the patch will move forward with the bullet - it is dry wrapped. (An odd shaped patch I maight add):mrgreen: (I made a template for it.)

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-838F.jpg

The pen mark is where the boolit is bore diam. On chambering, the leade leaves an impression on the patch.

I will load this up on top of 40grs AR2209 for a estimated 1900 - 2000 fps (It's a 228grainer).

Hwever, the proof is in the shooting!

Something I have come to realize, I have to stay with the tapered bullet if I want to use them heavy. Otherwise they will not chamber seated to the base of the neck.

[docone31]

Looking good so far.
I don't know about pitch. It is pretty brittle when hard.
I just load mine, and neck em down to be tight against the patch without crimping.
Nice looking wrap.
Wrapped it dry?
I never did that.
The creosote they used to seal with was different than the creosote we get from our chimneys. It is a liquid and does almost the same thing as dipping in beeswax.
Try em. That is the only way to know.

[303Guy]

This is the patch;

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-840F.jpg

I used a mix of any old bullet lube, candle wax and STP. This stuff lubes quite well and holds my hornet bullet seated in it's paper cup. I am trying the same stuff now. I have three newly loaded rounds and the bullets are quite firm i.e. I can't pull them out with my fingers. :Fire: I will shoot them singly (checking the bore between shots in case the paper stays behind!):mrgreen: I never had a paper cup stay behind in the hornet bore. (The lube also kept the bore clean and rust free and prevents any copper fouling - that with .224 bullets down a .223 bore).

[docone31]

That is one heck of a patch pattern!
I like to keep it simple.
I have extended my patches beyond the 1 3/16", to one or two extra wraps if I am experimenting with thickness.
With that torpedo you are wrapping, I would think the rectangular patches would be far simpler to wrap.

[303Guy]

Yeah well, .... you see, ..... ummmm!:mrgreen:

It's in trying fit the bullet to the throat and the case neck! The bullet starts off slightly tapered but the taper isn't enough. And yes, it is a torpedo! My theory is that the Lee Enfield throat is long and tapered and so should the bullet be. Anyway, there is that certain appeal to that 'look'. Actually, my thinking went along the lines of making use of the case capacity and throat capacity to get a cast bullet sufficiently slow yet at decent pressure with enough down-range oomph! I am now using AR2209 which almosts fills the case behind a 220gr bullet which fills the throat. (The downside is it uses more lead).

ADI shows AR2209 as being right between H4350 and H414. (I usd to think it was exactly H4350 and maybe it was once).

Now to find a way to patch and load my stock of 243gr g/c bullets!:mrgreen:

Say, docone31, how do you do a single wrap?

[docone31]

I am not sure a single wrap is feaseable. I think, patches need a locking layer to keep their stability.

[303Guy]

I little bit of feed back! Not earth shattering - no range tests yet.

First the boolit tested. (I've posted this pic before).
This one has a 2-Ply tracing paper patch with the corner glued to keep it in place.
The patch was sized in a collet near the front to make it fit the throat. (A 35 bullet puller collet).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-830F.jpg
Note that this patch is open based.

Loaded up on top of 6gr Lil'Gun.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-852F.jpg

The recovered boolit with trapped patch piece with the bore side up. It starts to get interesting here as this piece is quite brittle and shows signs of scourching. My theory is that it is bore friction that heats the patch and that is why the patch works in the first place - it keeps the bullet surface cool. (Exactly what docone31 said!)
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-857F.jpg
The striations on the bullet (from sand on one of the rags) prove that the bullet loses velocity a lot faster than it's spin rate. I've had bullets caught twisted up in a rag! ( have a pic of a 'J-word' bullet melted into the catch cloth).

This is it.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-462F.jpg
Note the heat discolouration on the bullet.

The Patch 'debris field' with an unpatched and the fired boolit.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-855F.jpg

And this one is for Larry Gibson. He has warned me of cotton filler starting fires and until now I had not been able to show how.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-858F.jpg

I finally found out how to burn the cotton. This pic clearly shows the scourched cotton and the scorching on the catch cloth. It takes a lot of cotton fill, a relatively low volume charge and long barrel time and there you have it! (Full tilt charges of H4350 class powder does not do anything to a small amount of cotton fill). So, beware of cotton fill causing fires!:wink: There are also partially burned granules of AR2208 visible - the contaminant that caused me to use it for testing only.

[303Guy]

Next trial:- Glueing the patch onto the boolit! (Had to try it!)[smilie=s:

The glue used was ordinary paper glue which dries brittle and does not stick to lead.

The loaded boolit. (6gr Lil'Gun).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-860F.jpg
Dipped in molten 'waxy-lube'.

The fired boolit.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-866F.jpg

The 'debris field'
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-863F.jpg

Not all the patch and cotton fill was recovered on the catch cloth. Most of it made through to the next crumpled rag. It appears that all the patch separated from the bullet but was carried through with the cotton fill by the pressure wake behind the boolit.

Larry may be interested to note that there was no scorching of the cotton fill! Different rifle maybe? I find it very interesting!

docone31, you said that you had not examined fire PP'ed boolits. Well here is one that illustrates the swaging that takes place in the bore. That band near the nose is from the collette sizing.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-868F.jpg

(Got to get some clean and sand free rags!)

[docone31]

Stellar!!!
I did notice, though, there is a bit of dross cast into the body of the last fired casting.
Hehehee.
That is a great pictorial. It says a lot.
Well done.

[303Guy]

Thanks. I have been using my most defective boolits for these tests. I also think lumps get caught under the patch. Got to work on that. That last boolit had no surface defects at all. :mrgreen:

I didn't realize you were patching the rear of your boolits only, leaving the nose riding section plain. I am trying that now on my batch of boolits I want to use up.

[docone31]

Unfortunately, I do not have a camera. If I did, it would not be able to show what I am trying to say.
I do patch the base more than the nose. I think, the bore that gets smears gets the smears cleaned off the bore by the paper. I am sure there is some scrubbing by the boolitt as it passes down the bore. I suspect, the non-lubing of the patch like I do makes the patch pick up more contaminants during its trip down the bore like the patch you show in the previous thread. I am not sure that is scorching, but planishing oxides, and bore crud.
I also can assure you, on my casting, I have wrapped some I would not have fired as a casting!!!! Wrinkles, pits, all kinds of defects. The patch seems to eliminate the sensitivity those factors make. Perhaps not at 500yds, but at 100yds it is a winner.
You guys are doing good. I am betting you both dial it in fairly soon.
I am looking forward to it.

[303Guy]

My camera is so old it still uses a floppy disk - it's pre-memory sticks!

Why I think the patch remnants have been heated is the brittleness and 'curled' appearance of some of the fragments. This particular bullet would have been pretty tight in the bore as the paper was quite thick and the boolit large. Also, the two-groove barrel swages the majority of the bullet down to bore diameter. The other rifle produced soft, as wrapped 'confetti'. Still, I cannot say for sure. But bore friction heat does make sense to me. Those 22 bullets, (J-word) which are actually 218 Bee bullets, definately got hot in the bore. Some of them actually stopped in the bore but came out quite easily with a cleaning rod. One or two stopped in the bore then came on out with residual gas pressure. Gas pressure was low, of course. Tiny charges! The one in the pic did not stop in the bore and was hot enough to fuse itself to the dacron fabric! My reasoning is that friction heat expanded the jackets and locked some of the bullets in the bore.
(To me, the significance of that is that the mechanism could loosen some jackets on some bullets as they leave the bore, resulting in inaccuracy).

[303Guy]

Right! After a bit more fiddling around, I seem to have found a good fit for my MkI's barrel. Double wrap of cig paper - it took a bit of practive but seems to work out just fine! I think if I told you folks how I was doing it you would have a good chuckle!:mrgreen:

Here are the bits and the stages
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-877F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-880F.jpg

You may have noticed the rather curious bullet nose. This is my cast in hollow point with the sprew in the middle of the hollow. Pretty neat! (I thought, anyway). The bullet has been dip lubed, post seating and the lube now fills the hollow.

The patching arrangement makes for a very tight fit in the case neck and with the dip lubing, the boolit is very securely held in place. I am hoping this will be tight enough for magazine use. (There is no post seating neck sizing or crimping). The lube on the bullet engages the rifling leade.

I have a few of these prototypes loaded up with 42grs of AR2209 - under 208gr boolits. We'll see how they shoot!:roll:

(If you folks don't hear from me, you'll know they flopped!):mrgreen:

[303Guy]

I haven't been to the range yet. Might get a chance this afternoon. In the meantime someone suggested the patches might not stay in place on a grooveless and smooth boolit so I did some tests to check it out. Well, I did get some patch folding back but not coming off.

Here is one that stayed on. This one was wrapped in wet tracing paper. Now that stuff is tough and stretches a lot when wet. It dries tight!
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-909F.jpg
Note the bad fit of the patch. It shows how much swaging takes place!

What I have found is that with the boolit being tapered, it can be dislodged from the patch during seating. So, for now it seems the patch will work.

I have found a new way of applying soft wet cig paper patches.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-901F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-903F.jpg
On this particular boolit, a simple double wrap brought the base up to neck size.

This is it. It was fired without lube.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-905F.jpg

Again, the patch stayed on in the bore. Notice the imperfections in the land impressions? Lead fouling! I got most of it out - thin slivers of the stuff sitting in the corners. Presumably that got there from a flame cut boolit or two.

[docone31]

Those are some good photos.
You can clearly see the joint line in the first one. Good wrapping, nice and straight.
Yeah, traceing paper does indeed stretch. It seems to me, when drying, it really tightens up. When I size, I think, I am sizeing only the land portions of my casting. Smoothing the paper inbetween.
My patches really cleaned out my bore. Made it down right shiney. Good sharp rifleing lands.
I found, with my roller technique, ordinary notebook paper, and printer paper really stretches and dries tight. I am almost convinced that is why I get my results.
You made an interesting mold for sure. Good for you.
I like following your progress, I like the shape of your casting. I bet hardened up, it might qualify as a solid out of that .303.
Have you considered, makeing a cut, drilling out a gas check, and putting one half way?
Might make the casting act like an Half Jacket.

[303Guy]

Thank you!

Yes I have. I found a brass eyelet that fits the mold. I didn't 'tin' it. The boolit broke off at the eyelet! Now that you have mentioned it, I shall try it again, this time, tinned and nearer the front, to control the expansion. Thanks for the idea!

I have been sick this past week - still am - so haven't made any progress with acquiring a sizer and perhaps a different mold. I am thinking along the lines of a casting just on bore diam and giving it a wrap to see if it will shoot straight out the two-groove. I am about to test fire a Lee boolit wrapped in tracing paper. (It fits the neck but might not fit the throat!)

[303Guy]

Right! Here it is.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-004F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-005F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-007F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-008F.jpg

Note the rifling right up to the ogive. The nose section started out as .300 and the bands were .311. Note also that there is no base deformation![smilie=w:

This boolit was given a double wrap of wet tracing paper, dried, then the tail overhang filled with waxy-lube, then the base dipped and cooled until the waxy-lube built up to patch size, then seated and dip lubed. Then fired into wet rags.:Fire:

It was a light load so that I could recover enough boolit to study it. This is what happens if I shoot them faster.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-009F.jpg

Note the peening of the boolit base. This one did not have the protective waxy-lube 'sabot'.

[303Guy]

Have you considered, makeing a cut, drilling out a gas check, and putting one half way?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-039F.jpg

I got some dross contamination there above the eyelet. I 'tinned' the eyelet before inserting so it is now soldered into the casting. I'll give this one a try in my 'test tube' to check the expansion characteristics. If it works, I'll only make a few of them for hunting.

I found, with my roller technique, ordinary notebook paper, and printer paper really stretches and dries tight. I am almost convinced that is why I get my results.The printer paper I have is just too weak but note pad paper is thinner and plenty strong to wrap in the roller. No glue required!

My rifle bore is beginning to take on a shine!

[303Guy]

Well, my illness has been preventing me from taking my rifles out!:neutral: I did however, do a few more tests. More failures than successes.

That's a patch still stuck on the top left boolit! (Patch over a lubed boolit - doesn't work).
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-055F.jpg
One or two boolits have severe groove wear. Tracing paper protects the boolit well but doesn't cut clean. (At lower velocities anyway).

This patch only cut through on one rifling groove.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-056F.jpg
What looks like a 'groove' is actually the patch joint (mis-joint). I'm not sure that uneven separation like that is a good thing.

This patch was pieced together for the pic. It too was not cut through evenly.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-040F.jpg
This one was much tougher tracing paper.

[docone31]

You definately are paying attention to detail. I love the photos.
It looks like you have a popgun with the last loads.
Clear marks, you are fireing without a gas check with paper, and you definately are able to show why lube on the prime casting is no good for accuracy.
Try this,
With lined notebook paper, standard to us, 8 X 11, cut 1" strips across the width. Those strips, cut 1 3/16" with 4* cuts on either end. Soak the crap out of the paper, lay the wet patch on the roller. Put the prime casting on the tip of the paper in the apron and roll it up.
Twist the tail and let dry. Size to .314, and put some full tilt loading behind it.
I am looking forward to seeing some groups now!
With the sizeing, just dab a little Car Wax on the paper.
I bet your bore is beginning to shine! Mine looks great after fireing paper! Real clean bore, sharp rifleing, consistant looking bore.
Paper is good.

[303Guy]

Thanks docone31. I am of course convinced that note pad paper is the way to go. I have even succeded in rolling wet notepad paper! I haved asked a mate at my old work place to make me a push through die so I can size my prime castings down to near bore diam. (I'll ask him to make me a new mold when he's done that).:wink:

OK, I'll try your suggestion and post a pic to make sure I understood it right.:roll:

[smilie=w: My Wool Wad sample pack from JeffinNZ has just arrived! These things look just the ticket! I shall be testing them this evening!

Thanks, Jeff:drinks:

[303Guy]

4* cuts Uhm... could you explain please?

[docone31]

Yeah.
CAN'T YOU READ MY MIND?
Whats the matter with you!
Obviously 45*, that is 45 degrees.
It doesn't matter that I did not completely type it, or catch it when I proofread.




oops

[303Guy]

:mrgreen:Hee hee! It could have been 40*.;) But just seeing the 4* I thought I might be missing something.:mrgreen: Anyway, I had a piece with a 30* cut so I just used that for now. I have two samples ready to test, one with notepad paper and the other with tracing paper. These will just get fired into the 'test tube' at low velocity. I feel pretty sure patches will come off much better at higher velocity - more radial pressure against the patch, more frictional heat to make it brittle and of course a whole lot more wind blast to rip it off! (I hope!)

[docone31]

With my rifle, patched loads are not specific as to how they are cut. So far, I have cut straight, at angles, overlapped, underlapped, triple wrapped. I have had ripped seats, long tails, short tails, no tails. They ripped off. I have wrapped to nearly the tip, and wrapped so it just covers the crimp groove.
With the 40.4gns of 4895, they go where I point them. I get confetti at the muzzle. Same with my .30s.
What is fascinating about your pictorgraph, is they show real details. Money where the mouth is.

[303Guy]

I was amazed at the details one can see on a pic. Hard to get the lighting right - that old camera is big and casts it's own shadow! I only get to see the details when I post the pics.

Now I am doing some tests to try to keep the patches on! Check this one out.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-064F.jpg

[303Guy]

Because I didn't go shooting today and because felt like trying things, I tried a single wrap tracing paper patch! Would you believe it seems to work!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-076F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-077F.jpg
That was the largest piece of patch I found.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-079F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-080F.jpg

[longbow]

303guy:

Here is another link where this guy uses sinlge wrap for muzzleloader and minies:

http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/

I haven't tried this myself but it is an interesting article.

I think if the overlap is small enough, it shouldn't affect anything. It likely just gets crushed down flat. If it was half a boolit diameter then you might get an eccentric boolit going down the bore.

You are right about the detail in those photos. Very clear!

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks for the link, longbow.:drinks:
(I have a new mold design I would like to run past you - you might like it. It's a push-out, but different than yours. I think yours is brilliant!)

docone31 gave me a patch size to try and that is more or less how it came out. After sizing, it is as smooth as. But I wasn't sure I got it right and was going to ask him. That link now - that has given me an idea. How easy would it be to place a narrow sliver of paper under (or glued over) the patch on the opposite side of the boolit to 'ballance it? I used straight cuts so the patch wouldn't unwrap before chambering.

My single wrap above was created by wetting and gluing the tracing paper onto the boolit, then cutting a slit opposing the flush joint.I also took the patch just past the ogive so the air blast at the muzzle would get under it and force it off. Well, it cut to confetti anyway! It's another avenue to expler (and have fun with!):mrgreen:

Well, I'm finally going off shooting! I shall be testing a few patched loads of course. Nothing formal - going to a farm and it is raining.[smilie=1:

[303Guy]

Nothing formal - going to a farm and it is raining. [smilie=1:And did it rain! It stopped raining and cleared up long enough to have a quick, muddy shoot! I could not lie down and all that so I used a gate post for a rest. Not the best. Still, I did have success.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-069F.jpg

I loaded up two test batches with two 'step up' loads between. The patch was folded over the base. the boolit bases were then dipped into waxy-lube and seated. That held them firmly.
The first test was with 35gr AR2209(H4350) under a 245gr PP boolit.
Those hit point of aim and the accuracy was consistant with my poor rest.
Then I fired the two 'step up' loads which showed me that my next batch was going to be warm but safe.
The second test really impressed me!
37gr AR2209(H4350) under a 245gr PP boolit.
Was I shooting better or were the loads more accurate?

These boolits were two-wrap patched the way docone31 suggested.

My next test will be with single wrap writing pad paper - but with a twist.[smilie=1:
Litterally! Have a look -

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-087F.jpg

Dried
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-090F.jpg

Here one can see what I have done.

[docone31]

You need more to make a tail.
They do not come off in the barrel that way. Make your patches a little longer on the casting.
Lookin good though.

[303Guy]

Thanks. The tail was still wet in the pic - I added a 'dry' pic. I leave enough tail to twist and fold, just closing the hole on the base. I do it that way because I find the paper too weak to twist wet. I have test tube fired a few with patches wrapped flush with the base. The boolit taper prevents the patch coming off. But not for field shooting where I will not be inspecting the bore after each shot!

Oh, I was getting nice confetti which glissened in the sun, floating down in a 'shower'!:mrgreen:

[303Guy]

One of my test loads was giving me quite a thump on the shoulder. I had forgotten what the load was and when I looked it up it turned out to be quite healthy! These did not not shoot straight but at around 160yds, the boolits showed no sign of yaw. I also discovered I had mixed several boolit types so now I don't know if it was the patches causing the problem or different boolits! Oh well, I'll just start again!:mrgreen:

[303Guy]

Have you folks had a look at 357maximum's thread "35 remington patched project"? His is a success story!

Here are two of his pics from his thread (with his permission - thanks 357).
See those neat groups!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/35Rem2.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/35Rem.jpg

The last one was clevely done by pencil-ing the throat area then chambering, to show how the patch engages the rifling.

Beauties!

[docone31]

Yeppir!!
I like. Indeed.
Mine are a little sloppier, but they sure work well for me.
When I first did it, I couldn't believe it! An old Cranky rifle, I had watched movies and they carried this one I have, paper patched boolitts! Exotic or what?
But, they worked!
I am not an hunter. I punch paper. Not real well, the bench resters near the wife and myself have started talking to us once in a while.
I do though get out of the routine, hit the range, eat some crappy range food, get hassled by the range officers who like my wife and myself. A day away from the routine with a crappy old rifle, shooting paper patched loads that work.
Can it be better than that!
I dreamt of doing this since I was a kid reading Jules Verne for the first time. In the third grade they had this very large book, "The History of Firearms". I was the only one who took it out. I used up the slots on the card pocket. I saw the Sharps and the paper patched loads, the Remington paintings.
Now, I also can wrap paper and make it work. Thanks to a few outreaching folks here, a patient wife, and keeping at it. I have probably done a couple of thousand so far. Now they are boring.
I got bad eyes, two stage triggers, torn rotator cuffs, but at 100yds I am pleased with my groups. Definately better than factory.

[303Guy]

Just an update - I've already posted this a few times on other threads.

Spiral wound single wrap.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-105F.jpg
That's the bottom one. The top fired one is a double overlap single wrap.

And the fired boolit.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-106F.jpg

The significance here is that the patched stayed on in the bore and came off at the muzzle. I'm going to load up a few of these for range testing at full tilt. (The idea is to use my existing boolits).

[303Guy]

I have had a heap of fun trying out all sorts of different patches and papers and methds. A big fun factor is discovering the same things as other folks are already doing! BUT I STILL HAVEN'T DONE ANY BENCH TESTS!:confused: (What with job hunting and being ill and all that). But, I have acquired a lathe small enough to make molds and dies and the like so now I can start experimenting with boolit designs again (once the lathe arrives and is set up).

My latest 'test' was my "Disastrous PP test".

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-185F.jpg