.38/44 data

[redneckdan]

Anyone know where I can find .38/44 reloading data? I had a copy of Mr. Venturino's article but the magazine got lost when I moved last year. thanks all ya'll

Dan

[GLL]

Dan:

I will scan the load charts and PM them to you tomorrow !

Jerry

Some of the finest revolvers made ! :) :)
http://www.fototime.com/EF221C65FA20FEE/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/82E75D2A5113D6D/orig.jpg

[zxcvbob]

.38 Super load data in .38 Special brass will get you close. Then there's always Elmer Keith's load using 2400 powder and 158 or 173 grain SWC's. Make sure the ammo is marked really well so it doesn't end up in, say, a top-break .38 Special. There's a reason the ammo manufacturers don't make .38/44 cartridges anymore.

I dabbled with .38/44 loads using Blue Dot a while back, and they shot just fine in a .357 Magnum SAA but I got case head separations after one shot. (Blue Dot was not a good choice of powders.) Be careful.

[Dale53]

GLL;
VERY nice photos of a pair of wonderful revolvers!

Dale

[August]

We're talking about the 38-40 (a.k.a. 38 W.C.F.), right???

If so,

http://www.sixgunnercommunity.com/articles/harry_o/loading-38-40.html

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/0508/index.html

http://www.reloadammo.com/3840.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/38-40win.htm

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/printthread.php?t=47594

Hope this helps.

[zxcvbob]

We're talking about the 38-40 (a.k.a. 38 W.C.F.), right???No, we're talking about short .357 Magnums, or .38 Specials loaded to 36000+ psi, whichever way you want to think of it.

[Heavy lead]

RND, I have a Handloader that Brian Pearce had a very comprehensive write up. You mentioned Mike V.'s I think I have that too. I keep a copy of Pearce's in my reloading manuals, lot's of data in there. I'll make copies in the next few days, I can email in to you. I'll PM you when I get it scanned.

[HeavyMetal]

The 38-40 is a different round that the 38-44.

The 38 44 was a 38 special round loaded hotter to be shot only in Smith N frames so marked. the 38 44 was loaded much hotter than the standard 38 special of the time and actually predates the 357!

Because 357 Smith's were very hard to find before the war ( WWII) Smith kept the 38 44 in the line for a very long time.

When found these are great buys! As quality was every bit the same as original 357's Smith's.

Lawyer's keep the factories from doing such things these days.

[Heavy lead]

Found it, it's from October 2006.

[GLL]

Dan:

Here are the loading charts:

Jerry

Mike Venturino Handloader #240
http://www.fototime.com/F7803FA02499B35/orig.jpg

Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/C199393C7CA1293/orig.jpg

Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/096F70209630B7E/orig.jpg

[GLL]

Just for reference the first revolver photo is an early Post-War "transitional" 38/44 S&W Outdoorsman and the second photo is a late Pre-War 38/44 Outdoorsman. These heavy N-frame revolvers with 6 1/2" barrels can produce over 1200fps in 38-44 level .38Special loads and not break a sweat ! :) :)

I own several and they are very accurate guns with these loads !

To complete the trio this last photo is an example of a Post-1950 version.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/F9000AFE50C6E07/orig.jpg

[zxcvbob]

Dan, I emailed you a bunch of data generated using QuickLOAD software. If you use any of it, start low and work up slowly. I tried 11 grains of Blue Dot, 158 grain Lasercast bullets, and Wolf small rifle primers (not taking my own advice) and they shot great but the heads came off the cases when I tried to extract 'em (obviously they were way too hot.) Alliant has since issued a warning about pressure spikes when using Blue Dot in .357 and .41 Magnum, but I didn't know that at the time.

[Bret4207]

Gerry, this gun porn has got to stop!!! When you post those pics I get a rapid heart beat, my palms get sweaty, I start to tremble a bit and things start swelling- like my brain- thinking about those beauties!

[JW6108]

Gerry, this gun porn has got to stop!!! When you post those pics I get a rapid heart beat, my palms get sweaty, I start to tremble a bit and things start swelling- like my brain- thinking about those beauties!

Absolutely........I have to keep a sponge at hand to sop the drool off the keyboard.

:mrgreen:

[Ben]

Jerry as nice as your photos are, I'll just bet that holding those nice Smith's in your hands is even better !

Best,
Ben

[9.3X62AL]

BEAUTIFUL rollers, Jerry--just beautiful.

That bit about case head seperations using Blue Dot would be disconcerting as h--l. None of my current 38 Specials are "38/44 capable", nor have any past examples been that strong. Only one is +P-rated, in fact. I imagine the Colt OMT could soak up +P loads without much fuss or bother, but with 357/41/44 Magnum, 44 Special and 45 Colt ready at hand--why risk straining an out-of-print example? I don't go there, accordingly.

[smkummer]

Colt rated these pre-war revolvers with 38-44 ammo in their catalogs. Which includes the official police revolvers. In a post war Officers model match, I have fired probably 500 rounds of 38-44 rated ammo with no problems. I am going for 1000 to 1100 FPS with the lyman 358477 (150 SWC) lead cast bullets. After 2 or 3 boxes, I do have some minor leading that cleans out with a brush and hoppes. The post war target wood stocks really help tame the recoil. I was loading this same velocity in my 357 revolvers because of the leading. I really like shooting the OMM as much as the python. Free internet advice is worth what you pay for it but I am breathing new life into these long forgotten target guns that just plain outshoot almost any semi auto.

[targetshootr]

I've got a spare if anyone needs a shooter. I'll sell or work a swap for a 58.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/targetshootr/DSCN4495.jpg

[w30wcf]

Interesting thread. GLL thank you for the pics of some wonderful historic S&W Handguns and the data.

Not too long ago, I became interested in the replicating the .38-44 cartridge in its factory ballistic form.
In doing some research, I found the following catalog data:

Pre 1953:
158 gr. 1,115 f.p.s.

after 1953 until discontinued:
158 gr. 1,060 f.p.s.

I aquired some the following headstamped cartridges from a cartridge dealer:
1.) REM-UMC .38-44 SPL
2.) REM-UMC .38 SPL H S
3.) R-P .38 SPL H V

I dissected several of each and found that 1.) & 2.) were loaded with an average of 7.5 grs. of a disc type powder; and 3.) 13.0 grs. of a Ball type powder.

I fired some of these vintage 60+ year old cartridges through my .357 Ruger Security Six (6" barrel) and found that they still had plenty of life left:
1.) 1,105 f.p.s. average (3 cartridges)
3.) 1,104 f.p.s. average (3 cartridges)
......only 10 f.p.s. slower than the early cataloged 1,115 f.p.s.

I then tested 7.5 gr charges of several different powders and found that HS-6 came the closest to replicating the burning rate of the powder used in the .38-44 factory cartridge with an average velocity of 1,122 f.p.s.
bullet: 358250 158 gr. (similar to the 358311 except that it has 2 lube grooves)
seating depth: .36" (the factory lead bullet was seated to the same depth)
primer: Rem 1 1/2
case: R-P +P

Accuracy for the 5 rounds @ 50 yards was very good at just over 1 1/2":smile: which were fired using a solid rest.

Now to try replicating the 13.0 gr loading................

Cartridge history is interesting.

w30wcf

[redneckdan]

I would say the 13.0 gr load is probably 'old' 2400.

[w30wcf]

I would say the 13.0 gr load is probably 'old' 2400.

redneckdan,
The 13.0 gr charges are definitely a ball type powder and not the disc type that 2400 is. I have some old 2400 and it is also of a disc configuration. Based on the data that GGL kindly posted, 13/2400 would likely give velocities around 1,300 f.p.s.

Additional testing later this week.......

w30wcf

[zxcvbob]

13.0 grs. of a Ball type powderCould it be AA#9? Or maybe H-108?

[wallenba]

Anyone know where I can find .38/44 reloading data? I had a copy of Mr. Venturino's article but the magazine got lost when I moved last year. thanks all ya'll

Dan

Dan, is that the same as a 357-44 Bain and Davis? If so Hodgdon lists loads on their website http://www.hodgdon.com/#

[redneckdan]

nope. Think of it as a .38 special +P+

[Treeman]

w30wcf, Did you, by chance, mike case body expansion for the factory rounds and your HS6 handloads? It would be interesting to know if pressures were comparable.

[w30wcf]

Could it be AA#9? Or maybe H-108?
Update:
I did try 13 grs. of Lil'Gun (WSPM primers) and velocity averaged in the mid 1200's. Based on that, AA#9 and H-108 would give higher velocities since they are faster burning.

I then tried some discontinued W680. Interestingly 13 grs. sparked by WSPM primers averaged 1,124 f.p.s..... very close to the published 1,115 f.p.s.

The powder used in those R-P .38 SPL H V headstamped cartridges was a non canister powder. Interestingly, W680 pretty much duplicates it.

Treeman,
No further expansion of the cases were found with either of the loads.

w30wcf

[Treeman]

w30wcf, Were you miking heads or the expansion ring on the case body? I wouldn't expect head expansion even with heavy loads but case body expansion gives a good idea of relative pressures.

[w30wcf]

Treeman,
The expansion ring just forward of the web.

w30wcf

[redneckdan]

Just an update for the folks out there. I have been using 10.0gr of 2400 under a 150gr rcbs KT bullet in my model 15 4", I have been getting about 1025fps. Accuracy is excellent. Understand that this is not a plinking or practice load but rather a carry load for the times I don't feel like carting around the 629 or model 19.

[oldmantoo49]

Dan:

Here are the loading charts:

Jerry

Mike Venturino Handloader #240
http://www.fototime.com/F7803FA02499B35/orig.jpg

Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/C199393C7CA1293/orig.jpg

Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/096F70209630B7E/orig.jpg
is the .38-44 keith loads you list, tried and true? ive worked up for my dan wesson mod 15 8" barrel some hot 38 loads for my gun and they are accurate. im looking for a lbt wld 180 gr mold,,,160 would work. all my loads are worked up 1/10 th grain at a time and are pressure tested. i need h-110 loads to complete my list. if you reply i would appreciate it

[redneckdan]

The load I listed was test d over a chronograph out of my 4" model 15 Average centered right around 1025 fps.

[zxcvbob]

A "magnum" load using .38 Special brass that I've been shooting a lot of lately is a DEWC over 7.0 grains of WSF powder loaded to 1.36" OAL. (This is not a max load but it's close.) It won't chamber in a .38 Special because the meplat is too wide. Works great in a .357 Magnum.

Obviously this won't be much help if you're loading for a S&W Outdoorsman, but if you want a plinking load for a .357 and you don't have much .357 brass, this is a good load. And I can fit 11 in the magazine of my Marlin carbine and they cycle just fine. I haven't tried shooting them in the carbine yet.

[firefly1957]

You guys are good on the 38-44 not many remember it at all. Recently I loaded a batch (400) 38 specials for my son in law and found 3 cases made by peters that had large pistol primer pockets cases were nickel plated could these have been 38-44 cases? They were marked 38 special.

[Landric]

I tried 12, 12.5, and 13 grains of current Alliant 2400 with Federal SP Primers and Lyman 358429 boolits that were right at 173 grains with WW lead. Test gun was my S&W 681-3 L-frame. Results were as follows:

12.0 grains, 1086 fps Average

12.5 grains, 1143 fps Average

13.0 grains, 1201 fps Average

The 13 grain load had slightly sticky extraction, so I'm planning on sticking with the 12.5 grain load for my future .38-44 loading.

I only tried 12.5 grains of 2400 with the Lyman 358429 Hollowpoint (which runs right at 165 grains with my WW lead), and it averaged 1176 fps out of the same gun.

[oldmantoo49]

Dan:

Here are the loading charts:

Jerry

Mike Venturino Handloader #240
http://www.fototime.com/F7803FA02499B35/orig.jpg

Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/C199393C7CA1293/orig.jpg

Brian Pearse Handloader #243
http://www.fototime.com/096F70209630B7E/orig.jpg
if you had known elmer keith before he died you would have his data and you could copy his notes as i did. elmer helped me a lot years and years ago. he also had loads for 200 and 210 loads for the 38-44 and i got them and they work real well with lbt wln bullets. bullet weight is critical but so is the bearing surface, both affect pressure. i have a pressure gun and barrels for every caliber in pistol and rifle i got and i have a lot. these young writers dont know nothing compared to keith and p.o.ackly. dont believe me,,,thats ok,,,only the younger ones wont listen. im old and ive been taught by the masters.

[GLL]

oldmantoo49:

If you are willing to share Mr. Keith's notes on the .38-44 I would love to hear from you !
Please drop me an email !

Best Regards,

Jerry

gllewis@pasadena.edu

[Frank]

Higher velocity doesn't mean accuracy. So what kind of 50-yd groups are you shooting with any of those loads?

[tadeus]

Oldmantoo49:

Me too!!!!!!!

I need information to reload 158gr swc to 38/44 levels for home defense. As we are not allowed to have 357 magnum revolvers (I live Down South of Rio Grande) I intend to get enough power out of my Heavy Duty. Of course, the 38/44 loads are not the type I would use in my S&W M-67, or my Colt DiamondBack or Official Police, Only to be used in my 1946 4" Heavy Duty.......................so

"If you are willing to share Mr. Keith's notes on the .38-44 I would love to hear from you !
Please drop me an email ! tadeus99@yahoo.com

Best Regards,"

tadeus

[zxcvbob]

You could do a lot worse than 12.0 to 12.5 grains of Alliant 2400, or 11.0 grains of AA#7 or N105, or 8.5 grains of Power Pistol. (these are all max loads. Probably over max, but I'd shoot them in a .357 revolver)

[Frank]

I saw one good group on target talk. It was a Smith 14-6 shooting HBWC's (?), 2.7 grns Bullseye, a ragged hole at 50 yds. Can this be expected more often than not?

[pmeisel]

I like these types of loads in my 357, for just regular old shootin'.

[redneckdan]

I'm not much of one to expend ammo on paper. I have settled on a load of 10.5 gr of 2400 under a 358429 NOE I don't miss what I am pointing at very often.

[9.3X62AL]

Good to see this thread getting re-started, Gerry's photos and all!

Some back-ordered Starline 38 Special brass just landed this week, so I set about loading some +P-level loads for (primarily) my Model 10 x 5". I'm NOT going to run them to 38-44 intensities, having 357s in the safe that can do the intrepid stuff (e.g., BisHawk x 7.5"). 100 rounds will get 10.0 grains of current 2400 under Lyman #358156/checked and WSPM caps, seated to crimp in the lower crimping groove (this fits both the K-frame Smith and the I-frame OMT). The remaining cases will get the same powder and primer, but subsitute Lyman #358429--my mould drops these at 163 grains in 92/6/2 alloy. Nothing esoteric, I know--about 1000-1050 FPS is likely, which increases the 38 Special's potential afield--assuming accuracy holds. I have winnowed out the weaker 38 Specials from the safe since I last posted in this thread, so there is no reason to restrict loadings in this caliber to standard pressures in the interests of platform integrity. If accuracy goes south, then back to the drawing board.

[onceabull]

Allen: methinks your "new" loads for the K-frame are ENOUGH. Those 5" don't grow on trees/vines/or bushes (.at least hereabouts) Haven't been able to replace it at what I deem to be fair,,,so fnally settled( interim basis)for a 5" Official Police.. Onceabull

[Curly James]

The load I finally settled on was 5.5 grains of Unique, Lyman 358477 weighing in at 158grains and cast from range lead. I lube it with black moly (a goopy lube I make) and use once fired WW brass and Win SPP. Clocks in at a little over 1000 fps from a four inch S&W model 66 and does a little better from a four inch S&W model 10 heavy barrel. The model 10 for some reason (a fast barrell?) always will have somewhat higher velocities. I discovered with this boolit that it seems to prefer a heavier load and surprised me with the accuracy. So much so that I stopped looking for awhile and loaded up a few hundred rounds for those two revolvers.

[Char-Gar]

I used 7.5 AA5 over 358156 GCHP in my 38-44 HD. Velocity is around 1,100 fps and not hard on the gun or shooter.

[9.3X62AL]

Allen: methinks your "new" loads for the K-frame are ENOUGH. Those 5" don't grow on trees/vines/or bushes (.at least hereabouts) Haven't been able to replace it at what I deem to be fair,,,so fnally settled( interim basis)for a 5" Official Police.. Onceabull

Awright, sir. I'll try them in the 686 x 4" over the chronograph first, and see what occurs. An error made on the side of caution (as opposed to intrepidity) is far less "loaded", forgiving the pun.

[ddixie884]

Has anyone seen any pressure data with a 158gr cast over 10 or 11gr 2400 in a .38spl case?

[firefly1957]

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

No 2400 data here but it may help

[beagle]

If you look at Castpics/Articles by members/High Speed .38 Loads, I was duplicating .38/44 data found in earlier Lyman manuals for loading .38/44 loads in .38 Special cases. I also worked with some newer powders and brought them to the same levels of velocity and I had no problems.

These loads were all fired in my .357 Blackhawk but were not excessive to the point where I'd be afraid to fire them in a .38/44.

Original data in the Lyman manual was for the 358429/358439 and the 359395 HB wadcutter as well as I recall and I used these bullets in my tests.

The 2400 data in the old manuals was for the older, slower burning 2400 so don't go there unless you start low and slip up on it when using current lots of 2400.

IMO, the .38 Special in a strong revolver is the most underloaded round out there because of the vintage guns it may be used in....and one of the best loaded to proper levels in a strong gun or .357 Magnum. Now, I'm not saying approach magnum velocities in .38 Special cases but they can certainly be safely loaded to the original velocities of the .38/44 loads and that was 1,100-1,200 FPS./beagle

[TNFrank]

I would say the 13.0 gr load is probably 'old' 2400.

That was the powder charge I saw in my 4th Edition of "Cartridges of the World" using a 150gr GC bullet. I wondered about that looking at the loads that were listed here now.
I MAY be getting into a 5" 38/44 Heavy Duty but I"m not totally sure yet, the guy hasn't gotten back to me.
I knew I joined this forum for some reason.

[David LaPell]

I have been messing with the .38-44 Outdoorsman now and if you saw my old Handloader 2006 edition of this article its pretty dog eared and worn. I actually think that next to the .357 this is my favorite caliber to tinker with.

Here is my Outdoorsman.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/Outdoorsmanmaple.jpg

I shoot one handed because of the injury to my left arm more than a year back. I use a couple of different bullets, mostly though its the old 170 grain #358429 with 12.5 grains of 2400. As you can see its pretty accurate.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/Outdoorsmantgt2.jpg

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/Picture2251.jpg

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/lightloadtarget.jpg

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/Outdoorsmantgt3.jpg

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/Outdoorsmantgt4.jpg

[Ben]

That's good shooting, and that is a fairly " stiff " load also.

Ben

[Alan]

I have been shooting 10.0 gr of #2400 under #358429 for many many years, all in postwar M14's and M15's, with the odd M10 thrown in. No detectable wear, the cases eject easily, the primers look fine. I'm finally coming to the end of the Hercules 2400 I had stockpiled, so I'm going to have to play with the newer stuff.
I may switch to #358477 simply because I have a good Lyman 4-cavity, and the keith bullet is a 2-cavity. Mike V. wrote once that 8.0 #2400 was a great accuracy load w/ 158gr bullets, and so it has proved for me. I will probably start there w/ the new powder and inch my way up to the low-end range of +p case expansion.

[30calflash]

It's been a while but in Ed McGivern's "Fast and fancy Revolver Shooting" He claimed better accuracy at long range thru the 'new' S&W 357 magnum. Distances the 38-44 ammo was tested at included distances of up to 500 YARDS, IIRC. 3 hits on a man sized silhouette. At shorter distances (2-300 yards) 5 and 6 hits were common.

This is a great thread to come back, been wanting to load some heavier than standard for the model 27 for a while. Let's keep it up, gentlemen!

[bstarling]

This is the first time I've seen this thread even though it's been around quite a while. Anyway, to the point, I am thinking about some stiff 38/44 loads for my Ruger Security Six with 38 special chambers. Has anyone done any of these loads in one of those guns? I am led to believe that the only difference between this one and the 357 Mag version is chamber length. I am wanting a back up on a pig hunt. My main piece is a 35 whelen so this is a just in case gun. I would like to take a whack at a hog with the Ruger though. Oh, I will be likely shooting gascheck hard cast 158 gr SWC.

Thanks for any help

Bill:)

[LOBO]

Old thread I know, but a good one. Thanks for the great info.

[9.3X62AL]

The load charts listed above are an excellent info source.

FWIW, I never tried the 10.0 x 2400 loads in any revolver other than my 686 x 4". They were "healthy", but simply the presence of the 357 Magnum revolver at the range site was a reminder that I had no real need to load 38 Specials to that strength level. It is safer--easier--and less reckless to down-load 357 cases than it is to up-load 38 Special hulls. I am a firm believer in "Murphy's Law"--that if a thing can go wrong, it will do so. There is also Paine's Postulate to Murphy's Law--which states that in venues concerning cartridge reloading, Murphy can be naively optimistic.

[Love Life]

My favoritest load for the 38 special is 5.0 gr of unique under the 358429. This is the max load in one of the older Lyman manuals and I successfully worked up to higher charges, but the accuracy was at 5.0 gr of Unique. This load smacks the steel target pretty hard at 50 and 75 yards, and I've never had a jack rabbit complain about it being underloaded...

I shoot this load in my S&W model 28 revolvers...which just so happen to procreate in the safe. I'm not sure how that happens.

[9.3X62AL]

I shoot this load in my S&W model 28 revolvers...which just so happen to procreate in the safe. I'm not sure how that happens.

I've been trying without success to get my pre-64 Winchester and Husq Mauser 98 examples in the safe to perform this stunt. No luck within the safe proper, but one more Winchester will be joining the ranks shortly. Is it mood lighting, or what?

[Love Life]

You have to play jazz music inside the safe.

[9.3X62AL]

Check. NFL and MLB audio from the TV in the same room isn't cutting it.

[salvadore]

I've been shooting Keith's and Skeeter's loads in 357s forever, I've even tried them in a .38 spec. Colt Marshal, very painful. I think these are closer to 357 pressures than the 38/44. I seem to remember old Colt sales flyer claiming 38/44s were suitable in their D frames too.

[9.3X62AL]

A D-frame Colt 38 Special--e.g., a Police Positive Special or even a late-edition Det Spec--would NEVER see a 38/44 load at my house. The post-1969 DetSpecs WERE +P-rated, but there is a big difference between "+P" and "38/44". I'll lose sleep over thoughts like this......

[salvadore]

9.3, I was just mentioning what I remembered.

Also for the shooter that was interested accuracy vs speed, I see a definite increase in accuracy the harder the 358429 is pushed. Has anyone else noticed this?

I'm not fine tuned enough, is the current 2400 really a faster burner than when it was Hercules?

[Tim357]

I'm not fine tuned enough, is the current 2400 really a faster burner than when it was Hercules?

only lot to lot variation. Better / more precise pressure measurement accounts for most of the difference in load data.

[james nicholson]

Has anyone tried using a 200 gr slug in a 38-44 load? Reason I ask is I have the 35 cal mold left over from my 35 rem days and have started using it in 357 mag cases in my T/C Contender rifle barrel. They are fantastic in it. Was thinking of trying it in my Rossi 92, but it is too long to cycle. in a 38 case it would cycle. Years ago I shot 38-44 with 11 gr 4227 with 158 swc in my Dan Wesson 15-2. It was very accurate there. Any starting info on loads would be appreciated.

[Tyrsgodi]

No, this was a .38 Special goosed up to help LEOs penetrate car doors and such. S&W took a big frame .44 Special frame, and cut the smaller cylinders and barrel openings.193567193568193569

[arlon]

I have a few 38-44s and an old Outdoorsman. Never shoot anything but run of the mill 38 special loads in them. I just think they are neat revolvers. Lot of steel in a 38 caliber N-frame!

[Kawriverrat]

I understand this is an older thread. However I thought Larry Gibson's good work, done some time a go would do well posted here.... Jeff


Test pistol Thomson Contender 7.94 inch barrel
Case Used: R.P. 38 Special
Primer used: WSP
Boolit used: Lyman 358477 150 grains .358
Lube used: B.A.C.
Accuracy tested at 25 yards.

Excellent Accuracy = 1.5 inch
Good Accuracy = 1.5 to 2.5 inch
Useable Accuracy = 2.5 to 3.5 inch
Poor Accuracy = 3.5 inch plus

38 SPL
4.0 gr of Bullseye = 1009fps 16,200psi (M43) Low ES/SD and Superb Accuracy (under an inch) Standard Pressure Load.

+P+5.5 gr of Unique = 1103fps 19,300psi (M43) with Good Accuracy.

+P++6.0 gr of Unique = 1199fps 25,200psi (M43) with Poor Accuracy.

-------------------------------------------------

38 SPL
8gr. Alliant 2400 = 890fps 10,800psi Poor Accuracy, and Lots of unburned powder to clog under the extractor.

9gr. Alliant 2400 = 1014fps 13,200psi Poor Accuracy, and Lots of unburned powder to clog under the extractor.

10gr. Alliant 2400 = 1065fps 15,000psi Usable Accuracy, and still lots of unburned powder to clog under the extractor.

11gr. Alliant 2400 = 1263fps 23,300psi Good Accuracy, starting to burn efficiently, still lots of unburned powder.

12gr. Alliant 2400 = 1373fps 24,800psi Good ES/SD and Good Accuracy, and little unburned powder.

12.5gr. Alliant 2400 = 1410fps 25,500psi Good ES/SD and Accuracy, and hardly any unburned powder.

13.0gr. Alliant 2400 = 1458fps 27,100psi Excellent ES/SD and Good Accuracy and no unburned powder.

13.5gr. Alliant 2400 = 1516fps 28,100psi Good ES/SD Good Accuracy, and no unburned powder.

Factory reference ammunition also tested:

38 SPL
Winchester 158gr LSWCHP +P = 1049fps 17,900psi
Very Good ES/SD with Good Accuracy.

Speer 158gr LSWC = 901fps 15,600psi Excellent ES/SD with Usable Accuracy.

Remington 158gr LRN = 877fps 14,600psi Excellent ES/SD with Good Accuracy.

Winchester 158gr LRN = 901 fps, 15,200 psi Excellent ES/SD with Very Good Accuracy

Factory reference ammunition also tested:
357 Magnum
Remington 158 LSWC = 1475fps 25,100psi Excellent ES and SD, Usable Accuracy.

Federal 158 LSWC = 1476 fps 28,500 psi Excellent ES and SD, Excellent Accuracy.

S&W 158 LSWC = 1491 fps 29,200 psi Excellent ES and SD, Excellent Accuracy.

-------------------------------------------------

<snip>


Again note:
38 Special standard pressure = 17,000psi via M43 strain gauge.
38 Special +P pressure = 18,500psi via M43 strain gauge.
357 Magnum MAP 35,000psi (Maximum Average Pressure)

[Larry Gibson]

"38 Special +P pressure = 18,500psi via M43 strain gauge."

Not sure where that 18,500 psi came from as you are correct the SAAMI MAP for 38 SPL +P is 20,000 psi. That is what my standard +P load with Unique bumps up against. Do you know the original thread that was posted in? So I can correct it.

[Kawriverrat]

Larry, I will try & find it. Your testing here was forwarded to me from another member.... Jeff

[Texas by God]

You have to play jazz music inside the safe.Or Barry White.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ddixie884]

Good thread.................

[9.3X62AL]

Good thread.................

Yessir. I do shoot "38/44" loadings these days, but they are put up in 357 cases and get fired in my rather stalwart 357 Magnums on hand at home. A Lyman #358429 starting out at 1100 FPS can do a useful bit of work.

[rbertalotto]

OH....THAT 38-44.......Actually there was a 38-44 well before this one. A special target round chambered in the S&W #3 Target Version....

Wrote an article about it for Single Shot Exchange magazine:

http://images60.fotki.com/v370/photos/2/36012/13396324/DSC_6310-vi.jpg

[ddixie884]

Can someone with the magazine post the tables from Gerry's post. Photo bucket has messed them up. Thanx......

[Groo]

Groo here
For all those loading 38-44 [or wanting to] remember..
The loads made by Keith ,Skeeter, etc[the masters]
Were made as a very specific load,,, powder, primer , and most of all boolet.....
When the said "a Keith bullet" they meant the true keith not some short nose verson...
The real volume of a keith in a 38spec is about the same as a 357mag as the boolet was designed for the short "38 " cylinders [like a M-28]
The newer SWC boolets set deeper into the case to fit a 357 case in the same cylinder.
Also . I saw ,in an old gun book , that S&W tested ALL there [at that time steel] revolvers [even chiefs] for 38-44 [there was no +P]
So , unless Smith cut some corners , ALL steel 38 revolvers should be safe with 38-44 OR 38+P if marked +P or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS this DOES NOT include ALLOY or ALU frames......

[30calflash]

Groo here
For all those loading 38-44 [or wanting to] remember..
The loads made by Keith ,Skeeter, etc[the masters]
Were made as a very specific load,,, powder, primer , and most of all boolet.....
When the said "a Keith bullet" they meant the true keith not some short nose verson...
The real volume of a keith in a 38spec is about the same as a 357mag as the boolet was designed for the short "38 " cylinders [like a M-28]
The newer SWC boolets set deeper into the case to fit a 357 case in the same cylinder.
Also . I saw ,in an old gun book , that S&W tested ALL there [at that time steel] revolvers [even chiefs] for 38-44 [there was no +P]
So , unless Smith cut some corners , ALL steel 38 revolvers should be safe with 38-44 OR 38+P if marked +P or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS this DOES NOT include ALLOY or ALU frames......

Mr. Keith always thought the J frame Smiths were strong because the bolt notch cuts were in between chambers. I believe he said this in sixguns.

That said I wouldn't run 38-44's thru anything other than a 357 or a Ruger. Metallurgy wasn't then what it is now.

[ddixie884]

Boy, I miss Gerry Lewis GLL. Haven't seen any trace of him in years. I met him once when I lived in Ca he came and got an old .38 Keith HP mold I had to make some sample bullets for the catshooter .357 group buy. Mailed it back to me with several hundred beautiful castings. Great guy!

[square butte]

Boy, I miss Gerry Lewis GLL. Haven't seen any trace of him in years. I met him once when I lived in Ca he came and got an old .38 Keith HP mold I had to make some sample bullets for the catshooter .357 group buy. Mailed it back to me with several hundred beautiful castings. Great guy! His photos were something to behold - I miss him too. Hope he is OK

[oneeyedpete]

GREAT thread guys! Has anyone done any 38/44 type loads with Titegroup or Winchester WST? that is currently the only pistol powder I have and it's hard to find anything else right now.

[Boogieman]

Don't know about WST but titegroup is not a powder for heavy loads. Pressure spikes quickly when you go above normal loads.

[Boogieman]

Just checked a reprint of a 1940 Colt add .They stated that their D famed guns would handle 38-44 loads. I found the same info inthe 1955 Gun Digest. I wouldn't be afraid of a limited amount of +P but not 38-44

[ddixie884]

S&W also said the 2" M&P was OK with that ammo.