Need Opinions On Lyman 323378 Loads

[Idahoan]

Rifle will be a Yugo rebarreled K98k 8X57 which has been very accurate with jacketed stuff, the Lyman CB Handbook does not show a load for this 243 Grain bullet in 8X57 but calls the same bullet in 8MM Mag the most accurate CB, as long as you stay under 1900 fps. About 1800-1900 fps sounds fine to me, I would like to use 748 or IMR4350, don't have a massive amount of it but have some and it's what I'm used to. No chronograph so I will have to guess, but I would say about 40 grains of IMR 4350 would put me at the velocity I need with very low pressures? Accurate Arms does give some data but not with this bullet, the heaviest they show is a 220 gr jacketed.

Opinions?

Or do you have a good load for this combination using a different powder?

[felix]

I would not use 748 at that level of loading. That powder operates safely only at a case full, and that would be too hot for your application. So, stay with 4350. 40 grains will not be too much pressure, and the velocity will be in line for what you are seeking. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Idahoan,

Interplate a load, that is look at the 323471 which Lyman says weighs 214 gr (mine are slightly heavier). They are using a starting load of 30 grs of 748 (which by the way they said was the most accurate) to the max of 40 grs. That 323471 has alot more groove bands then the bullet you have. Your bullet is a bore rider. So there's a difference in bore friction, but what difference there is the bullet you have will make up the difference in it's weight. 748 isn't a ball powder that is as touchy as say 296 which definately should not be used in reduced loads. Yes I know that's a pistol powder. Surplus 844 comes with suggested loads of using H 335 data. H335 and WW 748 are almost identical. Don't get me wrong, surplus powder do vary alot in speed. What I'm saying is I have the 844 and I use it in light powder charges to heavy, it's very versatile...so being 748 is very similar I see no harm in it. If you want to use 748 start out with that 30 gr load and see what you get.

Joe

[JeffinNZ]

I'll be interested to know how you go with the 323378. My 8mm would have a bar of it but just loved 323470.
I thought the 378 could have done with a longer bearing surface.

cheers

Jeff

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/29A646FD8B4A5E4/standard.jpg

Would that be the boolit on the left (#1)? Someone was selling some moulds many years ago and had that one. I thought it looked kind of corny. Interesting, but in a corny way :-). I passed and a buddy bought it and couldn't get it to shoot so he gave me a bunch of'em to try. I tried powders from 4227 to WC852 (S) and never could get it to shoot fer spit.

I know exactly why too. The only place the nose touched the bore was a little right there in front of the top band. The thing prolly went weeble woobeling down the barrel and past the muzzle in all kinds of directions. Course, if the one you're talking about isn't THAT one, then never mind 8)

I got my 'Heavy 8' Lee coustom @ 240grs going 2300 fps with almost a caseload of WC852 (S) from a 24" bbl on a TUrk M38/46. Too bad WC852 isn't around anu more, but 4831 would be close. I'd just pick a moderate starting load with 4831 and work up.

.................. Buckshot

[Idahoan]

http://www.fototime.com/29A646FD8B4A5E4/standard.jpg

Would that be the boolit on the left (#1)? Someone was selling some moulds many years ago and had that one. I thought it looked kind of corny. Interesting, but in a corny way :-). I passed and a buddy bought it and couldn't get it to shoot so he gave me a bunch of'em to try. I tried powders from 4227 to WC852 (S) and never could get it to shoot fer spit.

I know exactly why too. The only place the nose touched the bore was a little right there in front of the top band. The thing prolly went weeble woobeling down the barrel and past the muzzle in all kinds of directions. Course, if the one you're talking about is THAT one, then never mind 8)

I got my 'Heavy 8' Lee coustom @ 240grs going 2300 fps with almost a caseload of WC852 (S) from a 24" bbl on a TUrk M38/46. Too bad WC852 isn't around anu more, but 4831 would be close. I'd just pick a moderate starting load with 4831 and work up.

.................. Buckshot

Yeah, that looks like the same big beasty critter, except that I filled what I guess is supposed to be the crimp groove with lube as well. Your results are not too encouraging, were you driving them as fast as the Lee 240 gr? The Lyman book says that accuracy drops off above 1900fps, at least in a 8MM Mag with a 1 in 10" twist. The Mausers have a slightly faster twist, but about 2000fps is probably their limit if Lyman's results are typical.

The area in front of the crimp groove measures .320" and is still about .310" halfway down to the front end, so it has more bearing surface than it seems to at first glance, but will have to wait 'til I get to the range to see how they work.

[StarMetal]

Idahoan,

First let me appologize and make a correction which I'll go back and edit later, I meant surplus 844 powder came with H 335 loading data.

Okay with that out of the way you need to try the bullet fit in your Yugo because I'm sure Buckshot shot the same bullet in an older 8mm rifle with probably more generous bore dimensions. One first easy check is to take a bullet and put the nose of it into the muzzle of your rifle and see if it just drops in, or if you have to help it some, and if it is lose where does it finally make contact if it does.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, 748 and 335 are not in the same ball park. How did you derive such information? Any chrono work? ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Yes...I have chronoed it, especially in the 223 and they are in the same ballpark. Now I don't mean exactly the same and 100 percent interchangeable to the grain, but very close. Now someone in the industry once told me that they were the same powder and just packaged differently. That I did not believe for one second. It's hard to compare it by say a Hodgdon reloading manual because Hodgdon seems to be very bias toward their powders almost always giving them the velocity edge.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Just real quick I grabbed my Winchester loading manual and my Hodgdon loading manual and looked up a popular bullet weight which is the 55 grain softpoint. Winchesters max is 26.3 and Hodgdons max is 25.3...one grain...how close we want to get without being the exact same powders? Also Hodgdon does list reduced loads and Winchester does not.

Joe

[felix]

5mm bores are not anywhere near 8mm bores when comparing for powder characteristics. High pressure versus low pressure, if you will. We are talking low pressures here. 748 flatly does not appreciate low pressure. 36 grains of 748 would be a fine load in a 3030 pushing a 170 grainer, and could be dangerous (SEE) in a 308, even though the velocities would be commensurate with equivalent energy, assuming a good burn in the larger case (filler). Going up to the 8mm bore, the situation gets even worse. 30 grains of 748 in a 8mm Mauser case would be very chancy, even though 100 percent of those rounds fired with book accuracy. 335 does not have the deterrent that 748 has, even though the powders might be identical before the additional formulation. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I went through the both manuals comparing larger bore cartridges because I knew you would bring up something about the 223. First on the 30-30 with a 170 grain bullet Winchester lists 32.0 as max and Hodgdon lists 30.5 grs of 335 as max. For the 308 the differences between 335 and 748 is 4 grains...that's not out of the ballpark in my book and it's the same 4 grains difference for the 30-06 between the two powders and the two manuals. For the 8x57 Winchester lists 46 grains for the 170 grain bullet and Hodgdon lists 49.2 max for the same bullet. Going to the 358 Winchester round, Winchester lists 50.6 for the 200 grain bullet, and Hodgdon lists 48.5 for the same bullet. For the 458 Win Mag , Winchester lists 75 grains for the 510 gr bullet and Hodgdon lists 75.5 grains of 335 for same bullet.

Where do you get they aren't in the same ball park. You'll been in this business long enought to know those two powder are very close. We're not talking pressure peaks, SEE, etc...we're talking about what the powder companies and loading manuals say about 335 and 748. Even on the burn rate charts (yeah I know, you can't take them for verbatem) they are together or close to one another depending on which chart you look at.

Now I covered 22, 30, 35, and 45 caliber to show that they are close powders.

Joe

[felix]

Those are recommended (max) loads, Joe. No problems with them. Each will produce 35K cup? ... felix

[StarMetal]

I posted the max loads just to give an idea of what they will hold and take. Winchester, as I'm sure you know, only list one load, which I assume is the max load. Hodgdon on the other hand list from beginning loads to max.

But let's not get off the track I was on here Felix, and that is don't you now concider WW 748 and Hodgdon 335 close? The only difference I see is Winchester won't list any loads for it lower then the max load. Personally I don't consider 748 a slow ball powder nor one that causes problems with reduced loads.

Joe

[waksupi]

Joe, I kind of consider 748 a slow powder, due to load density in the .223. My only experience with it, by the way. I'm not going to dig out my load book right now, but I seem to recall it was pretty much in the BLc-2 range.

[StarMetal]

Ric,

Actually 748, 335, and BLC-2 are all in the same area on burn rate charts. 748 is a medium burn rate powder Ric, 760 is Winchesters slow powder. In the Hodgdon book starting at 4227, the powders are as follows: H110, Lil'gun, H4198, H322, Benchmark, H335, H4895, Varget, BlC-2, H380, H414, H4350, H4831. My Winchester isn't the latest manual out but it only has three rifle powder and in this order of burn rate: 680, 748, and 760. So what we're seeing here is both the 748 and H335 are in the medium burn rate, or in the middle of each companies powders.

I can't see how you could consider 748 a slow powder because of load density in a 223 when the max load is around the 25-26 grain bracket and my God, that's just about all that little case holds Ric. With a 55 grain bullet a max load in Hodgdon's manual for 4895 is 26 grains, about the same as 748 and H 335. So would you concider 4895 a slow powder too? 4198 is about 21 grs, only 4 grs shy of your so called powders. I got both of you on this one. [smilie=p::violin:[smilie=w::kidding:

Joe

[felix]

Yes, Joe, the burns speeds are close. It is just that 748 needs pressure to burn with that predictable speed without going bananas. 335 has low sensitivity, and BLC2 has medium sensitivity, and 748 has high sensitivity, and the burn speed slows slightly in this same progression because of the deterrents applied to each and/or slightly different formulations to cause this shift in order to obtain progressively higher velocity in small to medium sized cartridges. Speed wise, a normal 748 lot would about equal a normal 4064 lot, which is a tad faster than H380 in most midsized cartridges like the 308W. Joe, I'm sorry that I don't wish to continue this discussion beyond this post. This is the second time I had to relay the information about pressure. You want to talk powder burn speed, so again, we fail to communicate. ... felix

[Buckshot]

...............Idahoan, the bore of my Turk M38/46 is about .314". I think it would be better suited in the .318" groove 8mm's. If at least HALF the nose doesn't ride, I don't hold out much hope for it. Good luck with it and I hope it works.

.................Buckshot

[vintagesportsman]

My Yugo likes these over 18 grains of 2400. .75 groups at a hundred.

[Bret4207]

Wow! Talk about digging up a "moldy oldy" post! I'm more than a bit jealous that you have the 378. Always wanted one of those.

[vintagesportsman]

Yeah, i am new and wanting to gain as much info as I can. I have become a Mauser Fanatic. Especially with cast boolits. Any favorites you can pass along?

[adrians]

mine like the 323470 (165grn) ,,,323471(215-217grn) and also i have the older 320366 (190grn dressed) goodnight folks:twisted::happy dance::evil:

[vintagesportsman]

I get mine from www.unobtainamite.com - still searching for my own mold.

[vintagesportsman]

I get mine from www.unobtainamite.com - still searching for my own mold.

Gotta love computers, cut off my post. I get my 323378's from unobtainamite.com. Great guys. I am still searching for a mold though. I have a Karabiner and a 323470. I would like a 323471. Unobtainamite has a 323471Hp I want to try also.