filler

[wrcook]

My question is when to use filler and when not to. For my military rifles I use almost exclusivly 2400 behind my cast boolits. In the past I have used this with a filler, and the accuracy is inconsistant. Back when I was a kid i used paper towel (please feel free to laugh). More recently, I have used batting from fabric stores, and now I use carded wool (from sheep). I especially like wool for black powder. I have always understood that a filler should be used in a large capacity case. like 8x56 or 30-06 over a small powder charge. This is to keep the pressure from spiking. What is the current conventional wisdom on this? Is it really necessary?

Bill C

[Kraschenbirn]

Not with 2400. The most consistent load I've come up with for my '09 Argentine Cavalry Carbine (7.65x53) is 18.5 gr 2400 behind the Lee 312-160-1R boolit...no filler. Gets right at 1700 fps and, off sandbags, shoots into an inch @ 50 yds. Get similar accuracy with 15.0 in my Savage 340 (30-30) using the Lyman 311466...also no filler. Neither version of 2400...Hercules or Alliant...seems, in the least, position sensitive.

Bill

[Shiloh]

Does anyone use fillers with 4227 or 4759 in .30-06??

Shiloh

[jh45gun]

There is no reason to use a filler with 2400. 2400 is all I use for my cast bullet rifle loads and I have no accuracy problems.

[mooman76]

Fillers can help sometimes if you have a undersized bullet compared to an ovesized bore. It acts like a GC but to a smaller degree.

[Larry Gibson]

Does anyone use fillers with 4227 or 4759 in .30-06??

Shiloh

I do, most often with the lighter 150 gr bullets. I have found it to improve consistency of ignition and greatly reduce the "powder position sensitivity" of those two powders in cases of 30-30 through 30-06 capacity. With heavier bullets pushed into the 1800+ fps range the pressures are such that the dacron many times isn't necessary. I have not found the need for a filler with 2400 but I must confess i do not use it that much in bottleneck cartridges and when used it was with the heavier bullets. I'm either using a faster powder (most often with the lighter bullets) which gives the same velocity and accuracy without ignition inconsistencies or a slower powder with a filler.

I use Dacron exclusively these days. I've experiment with about everything from drier lint, cereals, coffee, toilet paper -unused:-), to cotton balls. I've found nothing works as well as Dacron.

wrcook

I'll post my standard reply to this question as it may answer some of your questions. The Dacron filler doesn't prevent "spiking" as such. It does keep the powder in one position which provides for consistentcy of ignition (that means a lower extreme spread and more consistent standard deviation). Consistent ignition most often translates into better accuracy all other things being equal.

BTW; A filler is also more benificial that a wad if the magazine is loaded and the rounds are fed from the magazine as they are fired. Many times the recoil will unseat a wad and powder can and will migrate over, under, around and through it. Back when I used a wad instead of the filler I was experiencing numerous hangfires, usually on the 3rd to 5th shots, when feeding rounds from the magazine. This was occuring with my 30-30s, .308Ws, '06s and 8mms regardles of the type of wad used. None of the loads would hang fire when single loaded, only when fed from the magazine. I then fired 4 shots out of several magazines of 5 rounds and took the 5th rounds home and pulled the bullets. I found the wads had been jarred loose by the reciol allowing the powder to migrate. In the cases of a tissue wad I even found most of the powder in front of the wad with the wad now between the primer and powder! No wonder i was getting hanf fires! Since going to a Dacron filler I have never experienced another hang fire.

Note the mentioned times I use the filler and when i don't. I have not found the filler to be a cure all and always of benifit. Within the parameters mentioned the Dacron filler most often does provide enhanced ignition and thus accuracy.


Use of "Fillers"
I don't use the dacron filler or a wad either with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find a fast burning powder that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want.

For use in rifle cases with slow “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc.) up through the slow burning powders that give around 80% or less loading density I use a dacron filler between the powder and base of the bullet. The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting” . It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. Some chunks go all the way and some are up into the neck. It doesn’t matter. I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and a pencil works well for .45 cals.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

We have kicked the filler issue around for ten years around here, and I doubt if we will ever come to consenses. Like most other I have come up with my own parameters for the use of filler and here they are.

1. DO NOT use filler will fast ball, and flake powders. (This includes 2400)
2. DO use fillers with medium or slow burning powders that take up at least 70% of the available case capacity.
3. I DO NOT use natural material like COW, Coffee, paper, oat meal etc. etc. etc.
4. I DO use Dacron and PSB with a strong preference toward PSB (Prescision Shotshell Buffer)

[bcp477]

I concur completely with Larry Gibson and Chargar on this. I would add that I now use cotton batting, instead of dacron - for NO technical reason (it seems to behave just the same as dacron) - only it smells better when fired and is biodegradable.

[sundog]

My go to load for 03A3 for 100 yard mil bolt matches is 21.0/IMR4227 and a 180-200 grain boolit, and NO filler. This rifle will consistently turn in 98s with Xs on the SR21 from the bench with the occasional 99 and 100.

[legend]

Great post Larry,thank you!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

When the question arises, hypothesize. Advice is well meaning but often incorrect. Use filler, not use filler. My 2400 does work better in a .45-60 HW with a 1/4 sheet of TP folded and tamped down hard. BvT