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View Full Version : How do YOU use aperature sights?



slughammer
02-28-2006, 07:59 PM
I thought the idea for an aperature sight was to put the front sight on what you want to shoot and then pull the trigger. My 1/16" bead is totally covering the 6" black at 50yards. How do you sight these things to shoot what you can't see? Do you use a 6 o'clock hold? If I sight for a 10 ring hit at 50, I'll have to hold 3" low to hit a squirrel. But if I sight to hit a squirrel at 50, I'll be shooting 7's on the target.

Tell me how YOU make them work for range and hunting.

imashooter2
02-28-2006, 08:20 PM
Well I filed the bead off to a square post and use a ball on post sight picture. Make your ball as small as you want.

BruceB
02-28-2006, 08:46 PM
I use a hold which places the bullet PRECISELY at the top of the front sight when fired at the zero range.

I intensely dislike the idea of sighting-in a rifle so that, for instance, it strikes the center of a round bullseye when it's AIMED at the 6 o'clock position, or well-below the actual point of impact. My opinion is also exactly the same for zeroing handguns...six o'clock zeroing for center-of-bull impacts is danged near useless for practical uses.

Organizations such as the Canadian Army, which used aperture sights ever since the '30s, have used a black semi-circle as an aiming mark. That is, instead of a round black bull to aim at, they have a semi-circle with the flat side on the bottom.

This semi-circle gives very good definition for aiming with iron sights of any shape, and the rifle is easy to zero , since the desired point of impact IS the point of aim (assuming we are firing at the desired zero distance). Using rounded sights such as beads, I zero using the top of the bead as the aiming reference.

To make these targets, just fold one of the regular round-bull targets across its center, so that the black bullseye is evenly bisected by the fold. Cut along the fold line, and VOILA', TWO targets for the price of one!

This is a very practical and simple way of ensuring that we CAN see the sights, against the lighter area of the target, and CAN zero the rifle easily with an impact point at the point of aim.

wills
02-28-2006, 08:53 PM
You can use an apeture front sight too, and you just put your target right in the middle of it.

imashooter2
02-28-2006, 09:12 PM
You can use an apeture front sight too, and you just put your target right in the middle of it.

I have one like that on an old Mossberg .22. Works very well on targets.

David R
02-28-2006, 09:53 PM
Slughammer, I am going to guess you are a young buck and can still see the sights well. An apature sight is next best thing to a scope for me.

My hunting gun shoots like Bruce B with the boolit hitting exactly where the top of the bead is.

My enfield that has that cool adjustable sight (stock ladder type) is set to hit the bull with a 6:00 hold. This is best for targets. You get the best picture. As you shoot more and more, you will learn how to adjust the sight or where to hold. The enfield also has a POST front sight instead of a bead. I like the idea of filing the bead into a post.

I am a peestol shooter at heart and its always been "shoot the boucning ball" If plinking at cans, just put the can on top of the bead and let er have it.

You will also find the size of the apature you look through helps with accuracy and has to do with how much light is available. I shot a deer once and it was a little dark. I couldn't even see the front sight until I unscrewed the apature out of the reciever sight. Got the deer too. I have 3 sizes. Small, medium and none. My hunting gun goes with none.

Hint: when shooting tin cans, hit where the can meets the ground. The can will fly up pretty good.

David

slughammer
02-28-2006, 10:46 PM
Well I filed the bead off to a square post and use a ball on post sight picture. Make your ball as small as you want.

I'm afraid if I file the front too small I won't be able to see it in the woods. How has the small blade affected your woods hunting?

slughammer
02-28-2006, 10:48 PM
This semi-circle gives very good definition for aiming with iron sights of any shape, and the rifle is easy to zero , since the desired point of impact IS the point of aim (assuming we are firing at the desired zero distance). Using rounded sights such as beads, I zero using the top of the bead as the aiming reference.


Thanks for passing that on. I'm going to give this a try my next trip to the range.

slughammer
02-28-2006, 10:53 PM
Slughammer, I am going to guess you are a young buck and can still see the sights well. An apature sight is next best thing to a scope for me.
My hunting gun shoots like Bruce B with the boolit hitting exactly where the top of the bead is.
I am a peestol shooter at heart and its always been "shoot the boucning ball" If plinking at cans, just put the can on top of the bead and let er have it.
David

Yup, I can still see them well. Being a pistol shooter myself, this aperature is new to me. I keep hearing all the guys here talk about how great they are; when I can outshoot the irons in all conditions I may become a believer.

imashooter2
03-01-2006, 12:10 AM
I'm afraid if I file the front too small I won't be able to see it in the woods. How has the small blade affected your woods hunting?

I'm a target shooter, so I don't have any input there. That said, the blade that's left after filing off the stock Marlin 1894C bead is .050, so it isn't exactly insignificant and the sight picture I get is ball on a post without any indexing issues from the rounded top of the bead. Heck, the other solutions offered are pretty much use the top of the bead the same way I use the square blade. Brownell's will sell you a spare to try out for $6.50. Might be worth giving it a try to see how you like it.

Four Fingers of Death
03-01-2006, 02:48 AM
There are three reasons target shooters hold a little bit below the black or use 'area aimiing' as we call it here.

Firstly, You get a finer sighting point and consequently a more consistent sight picture.

Secondly, side to side movement is more readily noticed and corrected.

And finally, if you aim at the middle of the bull with a post foresight, you get an optical illusion similar to parallax.

High level precision shooters wouldn't be doing it if any other way was better.

That said, most use peep foresights as well and this problem is overcome, although you eye can only centre one circle automatically, so there's no such thing as a free lunch. It is only the pistol shooters and standard rifle shooters such as original military and lever/cowboy shooters who use blade foresights now.

If you intend to mostly shoot black bullseye targets, I get used to shooting at 0600 with a smidgen of white between the top of the post and the bottom of the bull. Thats where you will get the best results.

If hunting is the go for you, aim where you like, but preferably chanhe targets.

I get old cardboard boxes from the stupor market, use the brown inside. If I'm zeroing or working out a load I stick a piece og black duct or gaffer tape and use that as you aiming point. If I'm practising for a hunt I leave the tape off and shoot dead centre with no aiming point. If you get big boxes, you can even cut out rough torsos of animals. Brown packing tape will patch out holes, or just use another box. I used to dip these in the creek next to the range, put them under a shrub or tree and cover with leaf litter when I was finished. Recycled twice!

Frank46
03-01-2006, 03:58 AM
Slughammer, this may sound like heresy but I have a lyman globe sight on my 94 with the bead on a post insert. And a lyman aluminium rear sight. I call it my lever actioned match rifle. The bead on a post insert came in the orange cans lyman used to sell with the globe sights. Don't know if they offer it anymore. I put the bead where the bullet is supposed to go and fire. 6 o'clock hold doesn't do it for me. Frank

BruceB
03-01-2006, 08:22 AM
The whole point of the black semi-circle is that it gives excellent control of elevation, particularly with the flat-top blade sight of the military sights. By holding just a hairline of the lighter, lower part of the target above the sight blade, consistent groups are very easy to obtain, and those groups are simple to zero ON the point of aim...don't hold "in" the black, but rather just under the bottom edge.

I shot my way to Master class in Bullseye pistol using a center hold, NOT 6-o'clock, because the ten-ring is an AREA, not a "point". Trying to use a precise "point" of aim can lead to many different ills in handgunning, and I had quite a bit of company also using center hold. In addition, again for field use, a handgun zeroed for center hold is a handgun that delivers bullets right where I want them, and not at extremely-variable impact zones according to different ranges.

Windage on the semi-circle target is also very easy to control, as misalignment is extremely obvious. One little "extra" that's sometimes used is placing a small white square dead-center in the bottom edge of the black semi-circle, which makes "center" even MORE obvious for windage.

A round black aiming mark is definitely efficient with aperture FRONT sights, because all the elements in the sight picture are also round....a round target inside a round front aperture inside a round rear aperture. However, for field use, the front aperture is less efficient than a post, in slower speed of pickup, uncertainty of zero, and limiting the field of view.

I used a #4 with a Parker-Hale match sight with the as-issued blade front element for moose hunting with great success in my earlier years, as long as I could keep my curious buddies from twiddling the blasted knobs.

BABore
03-01-2006, 09:10 AM
Might want to try an Ashley (AO) front sight. They're a flat top partridge style with a fine white line running up the middle. Real fast to pick up and easy to hit with. I use one in conjunction with an AO ghost ring rear on my Marlin GG.

http://www.expresssights.com/

David R
03-01-2006, 07:05 PM
Sp Bruce B, you are holding 6:00 on your half circle target. Even if it is the center, still the base of the black where it meets the white. In peestol bullseye, center hold is too vague for me. Black sight in the center of a black bull. I usually black my sights with a zippo lighter or some other carbon flame. I even have a carbide sight smoker. This seems to help when the sun is glaring off the front sight weather its a rifle or peestol.


A gunsmith once told me to shoot long range groups or just for accuracy with iron sights, use a big or even huge bull. It really works. I find the bull or black needs to be bigger than the front post so its a ball on a post I am shooting at.

BruceB
03-01-2006, 09:03 PM
David;

Absolutely correct, the hold on the semi-circle is at 6 o'clock....but the point of IMPACT is at the point of AIM, and that is the critical factor when dealing with targets at unknown ranges.

A rifle zeroed for center hits with a six o'clock hold on a 12" black bull is shooting SIX INCHES high (i.e: above the sights) at that range, whatever it may be.

For formal target shooting at known distances, this is fine. For practical rifle shooting, it is useless.

As mentioned, I shot competitive Bullseye with considerable success, and settled on the center hold after trying a variety of methods. In 50-yard Bullseye slowfire, the ten ring is 3.39" across, and most shooters are rather happy to have half of their slow-fire rounds at 50 land in the nine-ring, and half in the 10-ring, giving about 95 points on average. The nine-ring is probably about seven inches across. Consider this , then: ANY shot which "breaks" with correct sight alignment within the area of the nine-ring is a "good" shot, and a diameter of seven inches is one heck of a lot easier to "hold" than the "point" where the front sight meets the bottom edge of a round aiming mark.

In fact, for many people, trying to hold at six o'clock leads to forcing the gun to fire at the instant when everything looks just right. This is called "grabbing a ten", and usually results in a poor shot due to abandoning proper trigger control. I sure wish more folks would try some serious Bullseye shooting. Many current pistoleros sneer at Bullseye, but there is NOTHING which will teach trigger and sight control better than serious ONE-handed target work. The trigger control learned on Bullseye ranges transposes very nicely onto rifle ranges, too.

I had little trouble in defining black sights against black targets. Whatever the shortcomings of center hold may be for some shooters, my scorebook proved that it was the proper method for me.

David R
03-01-2006, 11:56 PM
Many current pistoleros sneer at Bullseye, but there is NOTHING which will teach trigger and sight control better than serious ONE-handed target work. The trigger control learned on Bullseye ranges transposes very nicely onto rifle ranges, too.

Amen!


It has helped me tremendously shoot rifle. One pistol match I shoot in they let me hold with TWO hands. Yeah, I won that match. :)

Bruce B, I tried to shoot Slow fire (50 yards) with a center hold and timed and rapid (25 yds) with a 6:00 hold. It didn't work for me. The idea was to not have to adjust sights. I also tried different loads for each distance. I always end up 6:00 hold and moving the sight 5 clicks. This is what worked best for me.

When I was taught how to shoot, "trigger contorl and sights". Those were the things that mattered more than anything else. I agree.

Although this thread is wandering a little, I would like to say at first I was happy to get em all in the black. Then I learned to shoot for the 10 (even with 6:00 hold), Now I am going for the X.....Occasionally I even hit it.

I don't hunt much at all, but I shoot competitivly at least twice a week. In the winter its sporter rifle and peestol, mostly indoors.

Back to the apature sight. when using it, I only have to focus on the front sight and the target. The rear sight is automaitc. One less thing I have to pay attention to.

David

versifier
03-02-2006, 12:04 AM
Using aperture sights for target and hunting are two completely different universes, not to be confused.
For target work, the distance and particular target (and the front sight) vary with the application. For differing ranges and bullseyes, you change your front sight, and you sight in to point-of-aim, the center of the sight covering the bull, and you use the smallest aperture that the ambient light permits. The point is precision sighting at a stationary bullseye.
For hunting, you want a wide flat front post, sighted to six o'clock low or point of aim, and the largest aperture possible (unscrew the center aperture in a Williams, etc, for the "ghost ring" effect). This lets you keep open your non-dominant eye, retains your depth perception, and lets you track a moving target instinctively. You automatically center the top of the post in the aperture without conscious aiming, making your target acquisition much faster and your ability to track and hit a moving target much easier. For a hunting rifle, you only screw in the aperture for sighting in, then you remove it and stash it in your range box and only use it for the resighting, when and if you change loads.

sundog
03-02-2006, 10:50 AM
Imashooter apparently did the samest thing I did to a M94 (.32 Win Spl) on which a Lyman tang was mounted. The factory issued bead sight got a make over. First, the bead wnet away. Second, the remaining post was filed narrower and lower in front, left wide in the rear, with a nice flat surface. Result? Set whatever you want to shoot on top of the front sight and pull the trigger.

Now that's certainly not the way I handle the 03A3 for target shoosting. Same kinda sight setup, rear aperture, front post, but not sighted the same way. Shooting big, black, rounds bulls on paper is a little different than shooting to a point with a lever gun. For target, the front sight is held at six o'clock with daylight for relief. How much daylight depends on light conditions. Light up, sight up. Light down, sight down. Simply adjust the amount of daylight held as the scuds fly by or wait for the either light or dark intervals on partly cloudy days. Either way, I win my fair share of matches, so this must work for me. Any mil bolt match that I do not place in top three (and guys, I'm not braggin', I just have a good rifle and spent lots of time with it and getting a good load) it's because I'm either experimenting with something, have guests with me that distract (which is okay), or am not shooting my 'go-to' 03A3 (with cast boolits and FWFL, but of course!). I'm well over fifty, actually closer to the next gate, and still have most of my vision. Not bad. Front sight gets a little fuzzy some days, but I am very fortunate, indeed. Soooo, it not only depends on the gun, but also the intended target how I will set up a set of sights and use them. sundog

35remington
03-02-2006, 07:45 PM
I try to keep it simple and make the bullet hit the "top" of the front sight, no matter its shape.

But I really prefer a flat post with an apeture, as it seems to give me a better index of elevation. I shoot much better with this flat post than a round bead.

If I was a target shooter and always shot at the same range, I guess the 'ol pumpkin on a post would be okay, as the sight picture gives a distinct aiming point with a flat post. But since I'm a hunter first and foremost, that bullet has to hit the top of the sight when zeroed. I also can't see holding below the target in the field to hit it.

castalott
03-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Hi Guys!

To muddy the waters a little...If I wanted fast shots at a large target in a dark woods- I would like a gold bead on the front sight post. But this is exactly not what I would want for precision work on a sunny day. As you move the rifle around, one side ( or the top) of the bead 'catches' more of the sun and causes a misalignment of the sights..( I am using the reflection as the front aiming point even though the reflection is not in the center anymore.) I'll take a square non reflective front sight every time.

I have 2 adjustable aperatures ( screws in like a normal aperature) for my Lyman sights....( Can't pull the name up right now & I'm not at home....) The target one is good but too big. The hunting one is really handy....Both work like a camera iris.....Turn the outside ring and the aperature adjusts size. I would recommend you try one & then buy if you like it. I usually start big and adjust the size down until the front site beomes sharp(er). Go too far and the site picture gets too dark...Helps with these old eyes....

waksupi
03-03-2006, 01:13 AM
I believe castalot is probably using the Merit adjustable aperture sight. Me, too. Darn good sight. For my front sight on my hunting rifle, I got a Firesight from Brownell's. Fiber optic type bead for the front. Mine is orange, and I believe it also comes in green. I keep a sight hood on the front when storing and transporting, and take it off when hunting. I don't know how fragile they are, but take care to protect it. I suspect it is a lot tougher than I think. The good thing about it, that regardless of light, you will see that front sight. I hunt in pretty black timber much of the time. On an overcast day, that front sight is a blazing spot to see against an elk. I do like the bullet to strike exactly at the top of the bead. That way, if something is longer range, I can still keep the bead fully on a target animal, and the bullet will fall somewhere on the body.

carpetman
03-03-2006, 11:28 AM
In years past,I had been using the smallest aperture I could get on my peep sighted air rifles. This small aperture was working even in poor lighting. Now I need the larger aperture. Damned gun getting older is hell.

versifier
03-03-2006, 01:15 PM
As far as hunting in low light, I use a dab orange, red, or white nail polish on the post. I hate bead front sights for hunting. I do have one on my 10/22 with the Williams peep setup, but I do not like it anywhere near as much. The wide flat post is easier to see for me and easier to get onto my target faster. With the 10/22, I can always wait until the squirrel comes back around the tree, but do not have that option with larger game.

26Charlie
03-04-2006, 05:04 AM
A lot of this discussion is related to how to use a bead front sight - I think Waksupi has it right. Regardless of the rear sight - aperture or U-notch - sight the rifle so the bullet strikes at the top of the bead with your sight picture, at a known distance. I do this at 100 yards for cast bullets. Then hold for the center of the bead at longer (150 yards) or much shorter (25 yards) ranges. Have even used the bottom of the bead as a reference for 225 yards.

Bret4207
03-04-2006, 09:45 AM
I'm getting short arm disease and on top of that the rest of the world is getting fuzzy. This is what works for me- I use and inverted triangle for an aiming point. Turn the square target sideways, fold it in half, whatever. It works with beads and post sights or me. I'm also finding a light target on a darker background works better for me. Either a white sheet of paper on a cardboard backer or something similar. Black on black is too hard for me now. If I had to go back to League type target shooting I'd have to do the 6 o'clock hold for sure and I'd have a headache in 10 miutes.

With a peep sight I prefer a bead for hunting. I sight to have the boolit hit where the bead lays. Not great for long range, but workable for me. With a post front I want the boolit to hit at the top of the post.

Scrounger
03-04-2006, 10:03 AM
I'm getting short arm disease and on top of that the rest of the world is getting fuzzy. This is what works for me- I use and inverted triangle for an aiming point. Turn the square target sideways, fold it in half, whatever. It works with beads and post sights or me. I'm also finding a light target on a darker background works better for me. Either a white sheet of paper on a cardboard backer or something similar. Black on black is too hard for me now. If I had to go back to League type target shooting I'd have to do the 6 o'clock hold for sure and I'd have a headache in 10 miutes.

With a peep sight I prefer a bead for hunting. I sight to have the boolit hit where the bead lays. Not great for long range, but workable for me. With a post front I want the boolit to hit at the top of the post.

I expect CarpetMan to be all over the high-lighted part of your post quoted above...

Larry Gibson
03-04-2006, 02:10 PM
In my younger days, my eyes were better then too, when I was hunting on the west side of Oregon hunting black tails in the thick stuff I used a M94 carbine 30-30 . I was using a Lyman reciever sight and a small (1/16th" I think) bead front sight. I was using a WW 31141HP over H4895 at 2050 fps.

An old timer told me to file the face of the bead flat and paint it with white enamel paint. That way it would show up in the dark shadows against the dark hide of a black tail. It worked quite nice that way. He also said to center the bead in the rear aperture for sight alignement and to place the bead over a 6" bull at 100 yards (it covered just about 4" of the center of the bull. The point of impact for the 100 yard zero was at 12 oclock on the bead. This in essance produced a zero that was 3-3 1/2" high at 100 yards. The point of impact hit at the bottom of the bead right about 150 yards which was the farthest I expected to shoot.

Thus I just used a center bead sight alignment and placed the bead over the heart/lung area of the deer for the sight picture. A smooth trigger pull always resulted in a dead deer out to 150 yards. That's how I used a bead front sight and aperture rear sight then and how I would use it now if my eyes would let me.

Larry Gibson

C1PNR
03-04-2006, 11:30 PM
This issue of "top of the front sight" or "bead covers POI" is still a problem for me.

I learned in JROTC (Rifle Team) and later in USMC to shoot for POI resting just at the top of the BLADE front sight looking through an APERTURE rear. That has always worked very well for me with arms that have that system.

The problem arises when I switch to a V or U notch rear and a post and bead front sight, especially with a brass bead. Frankly, I don't think I have anything other than Brass on my post and bead front sights.

And then I further confuse even myself by shooting with an aperture rear sight and a brass post and bead front.:veryconfu

I guess I just need to shoot a lot more of both types.:bigsmyl2:

Char-Gar
03-05-2006, 11:29 PM
I balance the target bull (or square) on top the the front sight, bead or post. I allow the smallest possible sliver of white/light between the top of the sight and the bull. I have found that if there is no white or light there is a chance the top of the sight is encroaching on the bull ever so slightly.

Unless I am shooting a target for score, I sight in the rifle to position the group right on top of the front sight at the given range. Of course, If I am shooting for a score on a target, I want the bullets to hit dead center in the bull.

Been doing it this way for 55 years and don't plan to change.

felix
03-05-2006, 11:35 PM
Me too, Charger! ... felix

Rrusse11
03-05-2006, 11:52 PM
Gents,
A smartass answer, but I've found Burris works the best for me.
{;o)
Cheers,
R*2

C1PNR
03-06-2006, 02:26 AM
I'm shooting the same as Charger if we're shooting targets. A POA at 6 O'Clock of the black with POI dead center in the V ring.:smile:

But most of my shooting now is at casual targets or game, which is why I sight in with a 6 O'Clock hold and expect 1 to 2" high hits at 100 yards, depending on the load.

That way the POA and POI are very close out to about 200 to 250 yards.