1911 Feed Problems

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

1911 style pistol, built by me from an RIA.

Ammo is 185gn LSWC, BH of 18, loaded over a charge of 6.3gn W231 using Rem LPP. I am satisfied this load is a bit warm, but safe. Alternate load, however, is the same, using 5.6gn of W231.

COL is 1.250-1.256. The bullet is a long nose profile:

http://www.missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_expanded/idp3.jpg

Out of 100 rounds, I have, on average, two failures to feed all the way. The rear of the case seems to hang on the breech face. Slapping the bottom of the mag will usually allow it to close, as will slapping the back of the slide with the heel of my weak hand.

This is my carry weapon, so everything's been stoned, deburred, whatnot, and the chamber has been lightly polished.

Feeding problems only happen within the last 25 rounds, when the pistol starts getting dirty. I have the recoil spring at 18.5# for carry and don't want to go heavier.

Extractor tension is about perfect. In fact, the case rim isn't even at the extractor when it hangs.

The problem is most prevalent with surplus magazines, but also showed itself with a Wilson (though this happened before I polished the chamber...)

It's almost as if the nose is catching on something in there when it's feeding, but the chamber is so smooth, there's nothing left for it to catch on. (I used 800 grit wet paper with a slight crosshatch to keep the expanded brass from sticking).

I adjust the rounds out to 1.270, problem totally disappears. That leads to unburned powder though, and I don't like that.

I don't recall if it did this with AA#7, though I seem to recall a couple malfs of this nature.

I've not tried any other brand of powder yet, due to lack of availability. Got the gunshop's last pound of 231 in fact.

Any thoughts here? The LSWC is not used for serious purposes, but could cost me an IDPA match if they hold them this summer. Past couple summers I placed 5th, then 3rd, and I want first on the local circuit.

FMJ and LRN feed perfectly all the time, any length, any magazine.

The only thing I've noticed at all is that some of the brass is a bit rough in the rear from multiple reloadings. I wouldn't think this would affect much though, as long as the breech face is smooth. Seems to stick more in the chamber, anyway, like the nose hits something and stops.

Can't reproduce the problem hand feeding.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Josh <><

[shotman]

you dont say anything about brass. You useing NEW brass to reload? If you are useing fired brass check at head to make sure they are not glocked. Try to find the brass that dont have the "I" marked primer

[DLCTEX]

You've identified what it takes to cure the feed problem, now you need to fix the powder problem. Maybe a .5 gr. increase(increase by.1 at a time) of the 231, as the greater case capacity seems it is lowering pressure enough to retard burn rate. I use shock buffs to ease the pounding of hot loads. 231 seems to be sensitive to pressure needs to burn cleanly.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Here's what was happening:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/Untitled-1-2.jpg

and what I did to fix it:

First, the mag lips were not all equal. The person I inherited the mags from was a Navy bullseye shooter from the '60s and ran SWC loads. He had adjusted the lips somewhat for better feeding, but a bobble now and again was to be expected back then.

So, I put up the surplus mags.

That left me with four: A Wilson 47, a Triple K, a Novak, and a Kimber.

I loaded up 50 rounds and took them out. Everything ran well, then the Kimber failed. I stuck that one in my back pocket to throw in with the surplus mags.

The rest ran very nicely, with the Wilson feeding the smoothest of the three remaining mags. I ran out of brass at 75rnds, so testing will conclude tomorrow. But things look promising.

I was surprised at the Triple K. Very inexpensive magazine, I figured it would be one of the ones to go. It was not.

Josh <><

[jsizemore]

If you inherited some mags from the 60's-70's you might try changeing your mag springs. Maybe Wollf.
Maybe you could post a pic of some of your loaded ammo.

[35remington]

Joshua.......

Haven't you read any of Tuner's stickies under "magazines" on the 1911 board?

You've got the classic three point jam.

Ditch the Triple K's. They're cheap for a reason. Reread Tuner's posts under the 1911 forum, and be informed as to magazine choice; much more so than you are now.

The smoothest feeders tend to be Checkmate's hybrid type; get in on one of the group buys.

Understand how the feed path is less steep and smoother with a tapered lip magazine as opposed to the parallel lip type.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I got that all down.

The military style mags were meant to feed ball only, but I've not marked them as "bad" with SWC. I'm only assuming they won't work; brass is being cleaned right now to check them out this weekend.

I do not know where I got the Triple K, but it works fine, for now. It surprised me.

Nice thing is that, when I have to chuck it, I won't feel bad about the 10 bucks or so I'm out! :D

Josh <><

[richardoldfield]

Josh, if the barrel hasn't been throated have it done by someone that knows what they are doing. After this your 1911 RIA should feed LSWC bullets. Another hint might be to use a 16# recoil spring. Regards, Richard:)

[Larry Gibson]

Joshua

Your feeding problem is common to the use of short stubby bullets (even with the longer nose). If you look at the picture you can see the case rim is still held by the magazine lips. The case is not released from the magazine and the tip of the bullet is hitting the top of the chamber too far back to have enough leverage to cam the rim up. This is especially the case with milsurp mags which have long feed lips.

The solution is to grind the front of the lips of the magazines back a bit. This can be done easily with a dremel and a fine small grinding wheel. Of course disassemble the magazine before grinding, polish the feed lips after grinding and clean well before reassembling. Compare the lips of the problem mags with the lips of a good magazine and use the good magazine lips as a guide to modify the problem ones. It's not hard to do. That should solve your feed problems.

Larry Gibson

[Josh Smith]

Mr. Gibson,

Thank you. I was contemplating this action.

Not sure I want to alter the old mags - I was selling them for something like $50 apiece on Gunbroker a while back, the marked ones, that is - but it def crossed my mind.

The Kimber doesn't look like it should need relieved any further, but I could be wrong. It looks like it already as wadcutter feed lips, but the release point may still be a bit late.

Thank you,

Josh <><

[richardoldfield]

Josh, humor me by posting a picture of a 185gr LSWC round that you have loaded or reloaded. I am thinking the crimp may be off or the OAL not correct. Do your 200gr LSWC bullets feed? If so, forget about the 185gr loads and concentrate on the 200s; a good load is 200gr LSWC bullet with a CCI primer, and 5.5-6.1gr of Win 231 powder. Regards, Richard:)

[Josh Smith]

Richard,

I've held off answering due to our past problems on other boards. However, I feel you're being sincere here, so I will do as you request.

Here are a couple pictures. The case is an old A-Merc and is not shiny, but is very clean. I was having trouble with lighting and some of my shinier cases reflected the flash to a point that one would have trouble seeing the rest of the picture!

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/loadedround.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b191/WabashShootist/Guns/loadedroundmeasurements.jpg

Josh <><

[richardoldfield]

Josh, the bullet looks like it is seated and crimped correctly. If my memory still serves me, I had a difficult time with jacketed 185gr bullets having a similar shape and I admit I lost all interest in them. I would just use 200gr LSWC bullets and the load I posted; 6.1gr of Win 231 is a superbly accurate but a stiff load. It is the best pin load I know of.

[Sprue]

Richard,

Here are a couple pictures. The case is an old A-Merc and is not shiny, but is very clean. I was having trouble with lighting and some of my shinier cases reflected the flash to a point that one would have trouble seeing the rest of the picture!


Josh <><

A-merc Brass has a bad reputation and is undiscretely disposed of by most reloaders that I know. Perhaps these brass are contributing to the topic.

The local commercial reloader fella used to have a half full drum of A-merc that he couldn't give away, a few years back.

Good luck El

[Josh Smith]

Hi Sprue,

I've had no trouble with A-Merc. It's always been Winchester from the value packs that fail.

I do have very few A-Mercs. Had to hunt for this one in fact. I think I may have a total of two or three, to be honest.

Most of my brass is W-W, Remington, or Winchester. I have a few Federal pieces, but not really enough to count toward anything.

Thanks,

Josh <><

[Windy City Kid]

Joshua,

After seeing your post #4, this a very common thing in a stock pistol. SWC's don't feed as well a round nose bullets in a stock pistol.

As others have said you need to have your pistol ramp & throated, but the most importing thing is to have a properly tuned extractor. The main reason you are having failure to feed problems is your extractor, it needs to be radiused, polished and tuned.

Have your extractor tuned it will cure your problems.

With a ramp & throat job, tuned extractor and polished breech face, your pistol should be able to feed empty cases. If you have this done by a good 1911 pistolsmith, your pistol should be able to feed any type of ammo reliably.

[CJR]

Joshua,

A couple of suggestions:

1. I didn't see your sized boolit diameter; I size 45ACP to 0.451 in.
2. Polishing the top of the chamber helps chambering. However, I've found over the years that after many rounds, a new warm barrel can stress relieve and become slightly oval. I typically black Magic-Mark the chamber, then ream with a Manson reamer, and then polish the top of the chamber. I've reamed a bunch of chambers and they aways cleaned up asymmetrically; i.e. @12 O'clock and 6 O'clock or 3 O'clock and 9 O'clock . Once they're reamed, they are stable and stay round. If the chamber was uniformily undersized, I would expect the entire chamber to clean up around the whole circumference. That hasn't happened for me yet.
3. I picked up some A-Merc brass once. What a diasaster! When I resized it, it didn't resize uniformily. It seemed as if the hardness varied all over the case. The loaded cases would not enter a loaded cartridge gauge. So I pulled the bullet, dumped the powder,resized the case(without decapping pin), reloaded the case and it still would not go into the gage. Solution? I chucked all the A-Merc brass . If you don't have a 45ACP loaded cartridge gauge (i.e. Dillon), I highly recommend them. It's better to find problem cartridges at the reloading bench then when you need to use them.
4. You may need to slightly radius the sharp edge where the ramp in the barrel meets the chamber. Kuhnhausen has the spec on what that radius should be.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[broomhandle]

[QUOTE=Windy City Kid;566811]Joshua,

After seeing your post #4, this a very common thing in a stock pistol. SWC's don't feed as well a round nose bullets in a stock pistol.

As others have said you need to have your pistol ramp & throated, but the most importing thing is to have a properly tuned extractor. The main reason you are having failure to feed problems is your extractor, it needs to be radiused, polished and tuned.

Have your extractor tuned it will cure your problems.

Hi Windy City Kid,

Josh's pistol is only about year old. The barrel had been ramped & throated from the factory. I have found that ONLY original military barrels need that work .

I'm betting Josh, has polished the heck out if it! His gun can cycle empty cases!

He had mentioned he had installed a stronger recoil spring on another board. My guess is it is too strong for the load he is shooting.

Best to all,
broom

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

This is a very old thread that was never resolved here. I remembered it after finding it after looking through my first posts on this forum. I'm resurrecting this thread in the hopes that the answer will help someone.

In c2010 I found someone fairly local to help me with the basic gunsmithing and operating principles of the 1911. (.22 rimfire and old military rifles were two others I learned around this time, too.)

It turns out that this pistol had developed lower lug bump. For this reason, it was occasionally doing this with light loads.

I reprofiled the lugs with a file and stones, and never had another malfunction from this pistol.

Regards,

Josh

[Char-Gar]

When reading about your issues, my brain screamed; "light bullets, heavy recoil spring". You have been given much good counsel, but were it me, I would put in a 16 lb spring and use a 200 grain or heavier bullet in a good mag. I doubt your problems would persist.

[Walkingwolf]

Any mil spec 1911(no modification) I have had has fed everything. There are so many ammo factors that can be causing problems. 1911 are picky about OAL, weak charges, case still belled with no crimp. I have used SWC with no problems but prefer flat point for low powered charges. I do not go below 800 fps for SWC, or RNFP. I do drop below for 230 grain round nose. I always make sure that the case is fully sized, not just the neck, and make sure there is no bell left after seating bullet.

[Josh Smith]

When reading about your issues, my brain screamed; "light bullets, heavy recoil spring". You have been given much good counsel, but were it me, I would put in a 16 lb spring and use a 200 grain or heavier bullet in a good mag. I doubt your problems would persist.


Any mil spec 1911(no modification) I have had has fed everything. There are so many ammo factors that can be causing problems. 1911 are picky about OAL, weak charges, case still belled with no crimp. I have used SWC with no problems but prefer flat point for low powered charges. I do not go below 800 fps for SWC, or RNFP. I do drop below for 230 grain round nose. I always make sure that the case is fully sized, not just the neck, and make sure there is no bell left after seating bullet.

Hi Guys,

I fixed it a long time ago. I only wanted to follow up, hoping it would help someone. It wasn't any of the usual things, but rather about the third or fourth thing I'd check. (I got me some real training on the 1911 between then and now, and have studied it myself ever since.)

From a piece I wrote while fixing it:

----
here is a bit on lower lugs and lug bump:

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Private/1911/bottomlugs1.jpg
I found this on my Rock Island when troubleshooting a failure into battery.

Barrel lug bump is not good. An improper radius on the bottom lugs will allow them to crash into the slide stop pin, reshaping the lugs and causing the dreaded Three Point Jam (yes, it's attained proper-noun status in my mind) when it slows due to the crash.

The link is only for pulling the barrel down out of battery.

Some folks (and 1911a1 military specs) call for the slide stop pin to use the link to either partially or wholly put the barrel back into battery when the slide goes forward.

Now, this is not the way the system was designed and it can break the link.

So riding the lugs is a good thing. In other words, if you pull the link out, the barrel will have trouble dropping down at speed -- and don't fire it like this; you'll shear the top lugs! -- but it should have absolutely no trouble going back into battery.

To fix lug contact, first stone off the high spots, then check the radius and contact.

The easiest way to check lug contact is to use contact fluid (I need some more!) or just a sharpie. Color the lower lugs and cycle a few times. If you're riding the lug as you should, you'll get something like this:

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Private/1911/slidestoppincontact.jpg

Uneven contact is not a good thing; this picture shows uneven contact. I stoned the high side just a bit and it is now perfect.

Correct radius is shown here:

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Private/1911/link05.jpg

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Private/1911/link1.jpg

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Private/1911/link2.jpg
See how the hole is partially hidden by the lower lugs? This assures the lugs will ride the slide stop cross pin into battery.

Shown is the link on my stock Rock barrel after I repaired the lug bump damage and radius. If you can do this, there is no reason to weld up the barrel lugs or replace it.

I fitted a NM bushing to the barrel after this repair, and along with new sights, I get these types of groups with handloads:

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Private/1911/New%20Sights/target.jpg

----

That's what I hope will help someone.

Regards,

Josh

[Greg S]

I was going to post this morning and that bright bouncing ball side tracked me. The first thing that his me was just mentioned by Char-Gar especially if it is a new spring. The lighter recoil is narrowing the operating window and the slide is just clearing the rear of the of the mag tunnel and changing directions. The problem is it is just starting to gain momentum when the breech face begins to strip a round from the mag.

? - Does the pistol display the same stoppage when a fresh mag is inserted and the slide is released from slidelock?

If not, dropping down to a 16 or reducing the charge and a 14lb spring should solve the problem. Additionally, stay away from Colt style original (surplus) style mags for SWC bullets, the modern day mags (i.e. Wilson 47D ect) mag lips release the cartridge earlier to prevent feedway jams.

[Greg S]

Ooops, shoulda refreshed prior to posting. Keep an eye on the lower lugs, a bump may continue to form until the right geomitry is filed in.

[Josh Smith]

Yes, sir, it's been fine since.

That gun was an awesome learning experience, and is now retired to being a mostly cast boolit gun.

Its new replacement build is pretty flawless, but not quite as precise.

It's built from a Rock Island, too, but it does look like Rock Island found in the time between the old manufacture and the new, that it's not a good idea to try to hard fit factory guns. (Not quite hard fitted, but it sure looked like someone at the factory tried a fast custom fit. Was interesting.)

This new one has a link that hands off to the lower lug then presents a gap during full lockup -- doesn't stand on the lugs.

That older one shoots so well that I never did fit that NM barrel I'd bought for it. The newer 1911 could benefit from a fitted barrel, but it has good carry gun accuracy so I'm not going to do it yet, if ever.

Regards,

Josh

[Texas by God]

Excellent pics, Josh Smith.