lubing .38 wc - how many rings?

[gravely]

I am a newbie using a H&G #50 .38 wadcutters that have 3 grease rings. I am currently lubing the bottom 2 rings. My question is do I need to lube all 3? My shooting buddies give me mixed answers. I am using a star-magma lubersizer and I had such a hard time getting it set up I hate to mess with it unless I really need to.

archer
asheville,nc

[Trey45]

I'm only lubing the bottom ring in my H&G50 boolits, works for me, no leading.

[stubshaft]

Try it with 2 grooves and see if it is accurate and if it leads. If it shoots great and doesn't lead call it a day.

[wonderwolf]

Cast up 200 of those things.....Lube all of the rings on 50, then 50 with 2 then 50 on just 1 then no lube at all.....But only load about 20 or so with no lube lol. Then test and see what works for you...who cares what your buddies tell you...esp if it doesn't work for you. Come up with your own solution to the problem. Me I would lube all of them...lube is cheap and its better to have it and not need it than the other way around lol :drinks:

[mooman76]

You already have been doing 2 rings. Is that working for you? If it ain't broke don't fix it!

[HeavyMetal]

My 38 WC boolit is the Lyman 35863 with three lube grooves.

In the cast bullet annuals sold by Wolf publishing I saw a very old article about 38 wadcutters using to much lube and causing accuracy issues.

The author did some testing and found one lube groove filled was all it took to provide excellent accuracy in both a model 52 smith and a K38.

When I set my Star up to size these it was real easy to have it lube the center groove. As this is a double ended wadcutter it seemed the right idea to stick with the whole either end propect this mold was noted for.

Having said all that Mooman has it right! If two grooves work, your happy with group size be happy!

[Bret4207]

Gravely, welcome aboard. The guys gave you good advice, see what works for you.

BTW- are you a Gravely tractor man like me?

[gravely]

Thanks for all the input. I am going to stay with lubing 2 rings until I eventually get around to doing some ransom rest testing then I will take the poster's advice to do an accuracy test on 1, 2, and 3 lubed rings. I would have never thought that too much lube potentially lessens accuracy.

BTW, my last name is "Gravely" and while I don't own any Gravely lawnmower/tractor equipment, my family is from the same rural county in VA (Martinsville) that the inventor of Gravely tractors came from. He died in the 50's and we are probably related to some degree.

[cajun shooter]

We had a forum member do a test on this subject about a year ago and he came up with the most accurate load being one groove. When he lubed more than two the shots were all over the place. Later David

[wonderwolf]

Elmer Keith had it right with his lube grooves I think, Though some are designed too deep and then the opposite extremes are the lee's with really shallow lube grooves. Change the lube though and it may or may not work.....(Variables :twisted:).

I did an experiment sort of like this myself awhile back. The group buy 6.5mm 129gr boolit is what I was using to fire form jap brass. I didn't use a gas check and I only lubed the bottom 2 rings and where the gas check should have been. I did this mostly because I had to seat the bullet out so there was front support while fire forming. No leading at all when I pushed them out at a pretty good click. The next batch of brass I form maybe I'll try no lube and see how lucky I am.

[fecmech]

I did some Ransom rest testing years ago and found filling the bottom lube groove only worked the best for my K-38. A great side benefit is much less gunk on the gun after a long shooting session. I also shoot my H&G #50 wadcutters out of a single shot Rossi .357 rifle with a 24" bbl and get no leading and excellent 50 yd accuracy.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

On the H&G # 50 or the Lyman 063 (there is an identical copy made by H&G for the Smith M52) the old writeup done by Col. Harrison for the NRA book on handloading, lube was tried in all three grooves, then 2 grooves and finally one groove. Harrison found and established that 3 grooves gave a lot of smoke and was in fact less accurate. It also left too much lube on the muzzle. It was somewhat better with only two grooves, but the best performance was with lube in one groove. I ran my own tests with my M52 and two S&W M14's.....I found that lubing only one groove worked best-minimal smoke and best accuracy and no crud anywhere. The only prob with this is getting my Saeco sizer to lube only one ring and then the rest of the bullet is unsized...Maybe a case for using a Lee push thru sizer to finish the job. Alternative for me was to size em all first at .357 with no lube and then reinsert the batch with the sizer set to put the lube in only one (lower) groove. With that sorted out the performance was just fine. LLS

[Windy City Kid]

I have never thought of lubing less grooves. I will have to try this.

[Dale53]

E.H. Harrison of the NRA Staff, ran an extensive series on revolver cast bullet accuracy for target loads. It is fully covered in the NRA book, "Handloading" starting on page 103. These VERY extensive tests showed that the least lubricant possible gave the best accuracy.

He ended up with the H&G BB #50 being the most accurate of all cast bullets and chose, after tests, to use only ONE lube groove. This with NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.

This book is a very fine authoritative book on reloading in general - none better, and it is a shame it is out of print. If you can secure a copy for yourself, I highly encourage you to do so.

I am currently loading an H&G #251 double ended wadcutter in my .38/.357's and get groups well under an inch at 25 yards using ONE lube groove with proper target loads.

Dale53

[wdr2]

What velocity are you shooting the H&G #50 with only one groove lubed?

[Dale53]

wdr2;
I am shooting the H&G #251 (a double ended w/c) ahead of 3.5 grs of Bullseye. I am using only one lube groove, sizing to .358" and seating the top band out of the case (to reduce jump) with a moderate taper crimp.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/251.jpg

I have not chronographed this load. However, by interpolation, it should be traveling about 850 fps. Lyman shows the max load to be 4.1 grs of Bullseye with a velocity of 973 fps with a similar bullet.

I get NO leading and accuracy well under an inch at 25 yards off a rest. It is a VERY pleasant load to shoot but really not a "mouse fart" load. Loaded "full house" in a typical .38 Special it was a favored load for self defense "back in the day". Ed McGivern favored it and Jim Cirillo used a similar load when he worked the "New York Stakeout Squad".

Dale53

[Recluse]

I'll jump in with the "less lube, the better" testimonial.

Came up with some really good lube, tried it on my wadcutters first--lubed all three rings. Had more flyers and keyholes in just fifty rounds than I've had in the last twenty years put together. Was ready to chunk the lube.

Then, almost purely by accident, I test-fired some other calibers--from .45 to 30-06--with this same lube and got other-worldly accuracy.

Went back, lubed up some wadcutters with same lube using only one lube groove instead of all three and got the best groups this gun (S&W Mod 686) has ever shot with wadcutters (2.7 gr Bullseye WSP).

Will never lube three grooves, or even two, on a wadcutter ever again.

:coffee:

[Stork]

For those who are only lubing one groove. Which groove gives the best results?

I'm thinking just the bottom, to better seal the bullet/barrel and prevent flame cutting.

Stork

[Dale53]

Stork;
I am currently lubing the center groove (easier to set up with my .358" Star die due to holes being plugged for a different bullet). I am having no particular problems with doing that and they shoot under (well under) 1.0" at 25 yards.

However, it does SEEM logical. Whatever works...

Dale53

[Recluse]

For those who are only lubing one groove. Which groove gives the best results?

I'm thinking just the bottom, to better seal the bullet/barrel and prevent flame cutting.

Stork

I lube the bottom groove, since as Dale says, it's easier to set up my lubesizer die (Lyman) to hit that groove than the middle. My preference would be either the bottom or middle grooves.

:coffee:

[doubs43]

I use the Lyman 141 grain bullet from a 358495 mold in .38 Special cases. It has three lube grooves and one crimping groove. I lube the three lube grooves and accuracy is excellent from my .357 S&W 586 revolver. I use 3.1 grains of Bullseye for target accuracy and 3.9 grains of Bullseye for general purpose shooting.

[Recluse]

I use the Lyman 141 grain bullet from a 358495 mold in .38 Special cases. It has three lube grooves and one crimping groove. I lube the three lube grooves and accuracy is excellent from my .357 S&W 586 revolver. I use 3.1 grains of Bullseye for target accuracy and 3.9 grains of Bullseye for general purpose shooting.

What kind of lube are you using? I've concocted a few lubes that have done okay to well with all three grooves lubed, but mine just seem to do better with the bottom groove only lubed.

I'm discussing this with a couple of other folks who aren't on the board, and we're wondering what lube properties may affect how many grooves get lubed and how accuracy responds.

:coffee:

[jcw1970]

wdr2;
I am shooting the H&G #251 (a double ended w/c) ahead of 3.5 grs of Bullseye. I am using only one lube groove, sizing to .358" and seating the top band out of the case (to reduce jump) with a moderate taper crimp.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/251.jpg

I have not chronographed this load. However, by interpolation, it should be traveling about 850 fps. Lyman shows the max load to be 4.1 grs of Bullseye with a velocity of 973 fps with a similar bullet.

I get NO leading and accuracy well under an inch at 25 yards off a rest. It is a VERY pleasant load to shoot but really not a "mouse fart" load. Loaded "full house" in a typical .38 Special it was a favored load for self defense "back in the day". Ed McGivern favored it and Jim Cirillo used a similar load when he worked the "New York Stakeout Squad".

Dale53

You using a model 52? If so, how can you get away with sizing at .358?

[Dale53]

jcw1970;
I am using it in my revolvers (686, Model 14, and 642).

Dale53