I think I made a goof - not sure though

[Black Wolf]

My first attempt at paper patching went well, except for one thing, I think I may have made an error as to the diameter of the final product.

Two bullets for two different guns were patched.

Rifle 1:
M95 Steyr with a GROOVE diameter of .333" - and I patched them to a final diameter of .332~.333" (too large?).

Rifle 2:
Enfield #4 with a GROOVE diameter of .313" - and I patched them to a final diameter of .314" (too large?).

I was thinking that, like cast bullets without PPing, you size the bullet to .001-.002" over groove diameter - but then I got to thinking - maybe the bullets are too big because they're patched.

So - help please.
1. Are the final diameters of my PP bullets too large?
2. I managed to size the final PP bullets without any lube needed and did not tear the patch. Do I need to lube the final product or, like a Jacketed bullet, does not need any lube to shoot it.

Thanks.

[docone31]

Your Steyr might be a little loose in the bore. The Enfield might be either right on, or real close.
Either way, fire them off and see.
I wax my patches before sizing. I use Auto Wax, or JPW, whatever I grab first. The sizing die scrapes most of the wax off during sizing. I do not lube after that.
From my experience with the .303 British, in my Smelly, If your groups are large, say 1-3ft. lightly smear some fine valve lapping compound on them. I mean lightly! Just enough to grey the patch. If this radically tightens up the group, add another .0005 to the wrap.
That is what I did with my #1MKIII. It was grooved at .313. I wrapped to .3135, and then after doing the lapping trick, wrapped to .314.
That went from 1-3ft, to 10ring! It literally outshoots my jacketed reloads with paper. I get a 3" group with jacketeds at 100yds, paper ragged 1" group.
The lapping compound also removed hammer marks in the bore.

[bcp477]

Of course, only testing will tell for sure. However, it doesn't appear as if you've got any problem. Paper patched bullets, in my experience, seem to work best when the final diameter is about groove diameter, a bit over....or up to .001" smaller. So, the M95 bullets are spot on. Even the .314" dia. Enfield bullets very likely will work just fine. I shoot paper-patched bullets about 0.005" over groove dia., (about .3235" vs. a groove dia. of .3229") in my Yugo M48....and they work beautifully. As I said, testing will tell the tale. Load them up and shoot them. If you don't get the best accuracy, I would suspect a load that your rifle doesn't like, long before I would worry about the final patched bullet dia. being a problem....especially as close to groove dia. as you are.

[Black Wolf]

Phew...thanks fella's.

Apparently there are a couple of different methods to determine PP bullets. I read in an article to patch .001" over BORE diameter, and others articles indicating to patch to .001" over GROOVE diameter. Maybe there's 2 schools of thought on it.

My "school of thought" was the same as using unpatched cast bullets, to size the bullet .001 ~ .002" over GROOVE diameter.

Thanks again. Boy, these bullets sure are purdy.

BTW - just got my new Chrony in the mail from Midway yesterday. It's like Xmas!

[pdawg_shooter]

If you size to bore diameter +.001/.0015 it is hard to get too much paper on. If it will chamber the paper will compress to fit the bore.

[montana_charlie]

I read in an article to patch .001" over BORE diameter, and others articles indicating to patch to .001" over GROOVE diameter. Maybe there's 2 schools of thought on it.
There are two schools. The guys shooting large caliber BPCR with black powder use the patched-to-bore bullets.
Most smokeless shooters recommend patched-to-groove.
CM

[Black Wolf]

Well - Shot 5 rounds of patched bullets sized to .335~.336 (barrel groove is .333") and it was lousy, even at 40 yards. I used 16.2 grains of 2400. Bullets were not lubed at all which may be a reason I got some leading after 10 rounds (which I didn't think would happen with patched bullets).

On this effort - I casted WW's (water quenched) using the Lee 205 grain .329 Steyr bullet. Patched them as cast (.329) to a diameter of .335~.336, no gas check and no lube.

Is my patching procedure wrong or is it the load?

As an alternative, I also sized the same bullet down to .325", then patched them up to .332~.333 and still had lousy groups at 40 yards. I'm talking all over the place.

If it's the load, I'd prefer going up on the velocity (rather than down with a pistol powder).

[docone31]

Yeah, my Smelly did that first few times.
How does your casting correspond to the bore? My .303, slugs out at .303, my casting's nose is .304.
You are too light on powder. I fire a lot without any lube. That is not the issue. I use starting loads for jacketeds in my patched loads.
The leading you are seeing, might be leading that already existed. The patches effectively clean the bore when they fit right. You might be rolling up the lead that was invisible.
It could be that, coupled with a light load.
I might consider sizeing them after patching also. Stay at .335 perhaps. I would also go to the 100yd spot. That way, you can see your fired groups. With my Enfield I got 20min of berm, then as I wrapped larger, the group got smaller. Finally, I was close with 6'groups, I smeared some lapping compound on the patches. Dead on!
I now wrap .0005 larger than I was to match the addition of the grit to the patch.
I use full tilt loads, no cast loads. I think you need activity in the case for performance. If your necks are black, turn it up some. They should come out like jacketed reloads. At least that is what I found to be true with my rifles.
Keep trying.

[Black Wolf]

20min of berm - i take that as 20 MOA of Berm - which is about what mine's doing.

I'll try a low load of reloader 7 or even a low load of 4350. 41 grains of 4350 is in the paperwork that came with the dies as a starting load.

I hope that was lead from prior shots, not sure. We'll see.

[rhead]

I usually get the best results when the patched bullet requires firm thumb pressure to seat in an unsized case fired in that rifle. This is more often true in the older military arms where somewhat oversized throats and leads are not uncommon.

[docone31]

I would start with the 41gns, rather than low loads. I cannot explain it, but in my Smelly, if I loaded the 40.4gns, clover leafs. 38gns, garbage, dirty necks, etc..

[303Guy]

Black Wolf, may I ask what boolit you are patching for your No4?
(I'm patching an assortment - my PBPP boolit mould casts a 213gr boolit and I have another that produces a g/c boolit at 208gr. I have other variations but these two are the ones that take a patch and fit as is. I'll be using AR2209/IMR4350 - 40grs or more. The itchy part is waiting to range test them!):Fire:

[windrider919]

I had several other questions: are you leaving a twisted tail on your patch or just folding over to leave a flat base? I found that the twisted tail sometimes damaged the bullet base an affected accuracy when sized

Also, are you wraping the paper far enough up the nose to cover all lead that might touch the bore in firing? Or, if fed through the magazine, is the paper being damaged in chambering and uncovering a bore riding section?

Are you aware that some rifles, using smokeless, shoot better with the bullets just wrapped and NOT sized. Paper compresses quite a bit and a bullet that is just over bore size {ex: 450 bore with .454 bullet wrapped to .463 and shot in .458 groove with no excess pressure} My rifle throat is .464 and my best accuracy is when the bullet fits the throat, not the 'standard groove size plus one thou'

finally, some rifles shoot better with UN lubed patches, although mine REquires lube.

One of the best things you could do is buy some cerosafe and do a chamber cast, it will answer quite a few of your questions about what size bullet to shoot and how thick to patch

[docone31]

Now, here is the rub.
My Smelly, and all my other patches, I run the patch just higher than the crimp groove. Thats it. All my castings, .30, and .303, the nose is larger than bore by .001. All my patches have a small tail.
I suspect, not only is there a difference between BP, and Smokeless, in patching, there is a difference between calibers. From what I have read, the larger ones have slightly different charastics where the .30s etc., behave differently again. Same with the smaller calibers.
I am still thinking, my useing a roller to wrap with changes the character of the wrap in some way, and I am not sure how the change is makeing the difference. The roller both stretches, and compresses. All my lube is a little wax. The nose of the casting is riding in the bore. I suspect, the following paper rubs any leading smears off as it passes by.
Unfortunatlely, I have absolutely no way to check or measure any of the results.

[303Guy]

Well, here's a patched boolit that only just fits the throat. It is a little larger than groove at its base and starts at just under bore at its nose - it's tapered.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-834F-1.jpg

The patch touches the bore at the start. (No idea how it actually shoots!)

[Black Wolf]

Black Wolf, may I ask what boolit you are patching for your No4?


I’m patching the 155 grain Lee bullet (C312-155-2R). This is not the one I’m having problems with however. In fact, I haven’t even had a chance to try those yet ‘cause I’m fiddling with the Steyr M95 issue of leading and horrendous groups.


I had several other questions:

To answer these in order:

1. I don’t twist the tails. I leave about 1/8” on the end of it when I wrap and fold it over. I then set them on their base to dry as the weight of the bullet helps keep them flattened out while the paper dries. Very pretty bullet actually – I’ll post a pic of them in a minute.

2. Wrapping the paper up the nose. That could be the leading problem – not sure. I’ll post a pic of the wrapped bullet and show you. I know for sure it’s not being damaged when chambering.

3. Bullets wrapped and NOT sized. I’m not sizing these ones. These are the LEE .329 Steyr bullet and I’m wrapping them twice with tracing paper, let them dry, then load them up (no lube). I do have some lubed right now to see if lubing them will stop the leading. Main thing I want to get away from is using a gas-check and get good results. Maybe this data may help in figuring if my paper patch is correct regarding size:

Slugged bore diameter: .317
Slugged land diameter: .333
Cast bullet is: .329
PP wrapped 2x to: .335~.336

Alternatively I also did this:
Slugged bore diameter: .317
Slugged land diameter: .333
Cast bullet is: .329, sized down to .325
PP wrapped 2x to: .331~.332

Both gave me poor results and some leading at the end of the barrel. I used a bore brush at the muzzle to remove the leading and it came out in small flakes.

Lastly: I’m going to try shooting a regular gas checked bullet out of it and see how it performs. While this totally defeats my intended purpose of paper patching, it will help me determine if the dismal accuracy is rifle related or bullet related. I’m shooting a 15” group at 25 yards with 20 grains of 2400. I’ll also try a different, slower burning powder to see if that makes a difference.

Here’s pictures of my bullets and the rifle w/ a bore shot. The bore is a bit frosty but has very strong rifling in it. The center bullet apparently had the tip of the patch torn off which is noticeable, but it’s not a normal technique in my patching.

Here's something though that may contribute to the leading. My bore diam. on this rifle is .317; the nose of the cast bullet is .322~.323" - which means (I guess) that if the bullet is not wrapped all the way to the end of ogive then it will lead since it's not covered by patch. Another experiment I'll try is to wrap the bullet all the way to the end of the nose, without gas check and lube then shoot.

The PP Bullets:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Steyr%20M95/stuff038s.jpg

The Rifle:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Steyr%20M95/SteyrM95005s.jpg

The Bore:
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Steyr%20M95/stuff040s.jpg

[docone31]

Fine looking rifle!
Those patches look good. You can see distinct lube land contractions.
I twist the tails to uncomplicate the base closure. You have a good seal on the base.
I wonder, if going to thicker paper, and sizing a little larger than groove might not solve the leading. My wraps are the height yours are, they are fairly similiar even with the slight overlap on the base where the gas check cutout meets the base.
It looks good so far. I wonder, if you tried some lapping compound on a patch or two, just slight, enough to make it light grey, the groups might tighten.
That is what I did with my rifle. When I saw the groups dramatically tighten, I went up in size.
I tried my patches unsized and got crap for grouping. When I made it larger, and sized, it made all the difference in the world.

[303Guy]

I wonder, if you tried some lapping compound on a patch or two, just slight, enough to make it light grey, the groups might tighten.I tend to agree with docone31. Not from personal experience but from my findings that a 'less than polished bore' heats the bullet surface big time. My No4 actually scourched the patch!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-857F.jpg

That bit is quite brittle. The other half was broken into bits. (Two-groove barrel).

[Black Wolf]

Well - after messing around with as many combinations of using lube, patching to different thicknesses, patching to the ogive (or not), using a gas check, I finally got a bullet that grouped fair.

In my .333" groove, .317" bore, I found that a sized .325" 205 grain bullet, wrapped twice with tracing paper gave me a bullet of .332~.333" (at groove dia), lubed it with Lee Alox and wrapped it right up to ogive; BUT THE CATCH was to use a gas check.

I was shooting about a 15" group at 25 yards with a PP bullet (no gas check). I added the check and it went down to 4". Not great for 25 yards, but at least it's better than 15 inches (used 20 grains of 2400). And best of all, using the check eliminated the leading of my barrel.

So, while I don't get away with not having to use a check on this puppy, I believe the PP bullet may still assist in increasing my accuracy by allowing me to increase the diameter of my bullet to .333" versus my as cast .329" (Lee mold).

Feedback is most certainly welcome.

[docone31]

I would put the traceing paper into the back file, and bump it up to notebook paper.
You sound like you are on the same path as I was. Changeing to notebook paper made all the difference in the world. You want .335 going down your tube. .333 is too light in diameter.
With notebook paper, you will not need a gas check. I forget the measurement, but notebook paper was twice traceing paper.
It sizes real well with Auto Wax, of JPW. A dab will do ya.
I suspect, the Alox is acting like a thickener untill it wears down.

[Black Wolf]

Ok - I'll give that a whirl but I already did the experiment with a .335" bullet (using my as cast .329" bullet wrapped twice with tracing paper with a finished diameter of .335~.336").

I'll try taking a .325" wrapping it twice with notebook paper and see if I can get to .334~.335" without a gas check. Hopefully I won't have to size it down any because I don't have a .334 or .335" sizing die.

Should I lube the final bullet after it's wrapped or just leave it with the plain paper (no lube)?

[docone31]

I just leave the wax that remains after sizeing on the patched boolitt.
I do not know how that translates to applying it to plain patches though. The sizeing die removes a great deal on sizeing.
I would go real light. Use some Auto Wax, rather than Alox. Wipe it on, and wipe it off. Do not let it be absorbed by the patch.
I noticed, if I went too heavy with the wax, it loosened up the paper where the wax was heavy. Sizeing would rub it back down.
From the sounds of your groups, the diameter is still a little light.

[303Guy]

Black Wolf, that sure is a handome rifle! Beauty!

One thing we can say about the Lee Enfield is that it never was good looking!

Which is why we dedicated souls have to do stuff to them.

[Black Wolf]

Thank you sir. That's one of my best tiger-striped rifles I have. I got Czech Mauser that'll compete with the striping however. I just love these old rifles - getting them to shoot again. I'm not sure of the year on this one but suspect it's pre-WWI since the model is 1895 and didn't get chopped down into carbines like most of them. There's no import stamps either (imported pre-1968?). It was obviously rearsenaled since it was rechambered from 8x50 to 8x56R, but oddly, the crest and "S" have been scrubbed (possibly a captured rifle???).

[303Guy]

I have I thing for rimmed cartridges. I have four calibers, 303 Brit, 303-25, 22 hornet and a 12ga. I still want a 45-70 (or a 303-375).:cbpour:
Do you have a pic of that Czech Mauser?

[Black Wolf]

Well, here's the Czech - not quite as stripey as the Steyr but purdy regardless.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Czech%20VZ-24/VZ24004s.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Czech%20VZ-24/VZ24001s.jpg

[303Guy]

That is purdy! Thanks.

[docone31]

Yeah, that one is sweet.
Good clear blueing.
How is the bore?

[Black Wolf]

Barrel? It's real good. I got it from a friend of mine (who has notoriously given me some great deals) for $150. This past weekend he sold me the following for $350:

1. A Colt AR-15 Upper w/ barrel (1960-ish with the triangle shaped forward handguard)
2. 2 Mosin Nagant M44's
3. 380 rounds of Surplus Romanian 8mm
4. 2 sets of AR-15 handguards (plus the one on the barrel already) (retro triangle shaped)
5. AR-15 buffer tube, recoil spring and buffer, charging handle
6. 2 AR-15 buttstocks and an A1 upper rear-sight adjustment tool
7. An AR-15 Colt forward handguard (not retro) and 2 AR-15 pistol grip

Not sure what the "retro ar-15" stuff is worth, but the AR-15 upper and the Romanian Ammo would've been well over $350 at today's current prices.

BTW, I did load up some of the Steyr 8x56 ammo using notebook paper. I sized the bullet down from .329 to .325 then wrapped twice. It's now .335" (barrel slugged at .333") so I should be good on the diameter of the bullet. Now, just to shoot it and see how it works without the gas check now. Probably will do in morning tomorrow.

I'll advise...thanks again.

BW

[docone31]

Way cool deal!!!
A good friend.
Lookin forward to how the notebook wrap works out. I hope it does as well as it does for me.

[Black Wolf]

Not any better, still leaded the barrel. Maybe Alliant 2400 is too fast of powder for this application resulting in gas cutting. What powder do you use when patching for 30/32 cals.? Slower than 2400?

[rhead]

I use H4350 in my 30 30. No leading, my handi rifle (with a scope) gives under 1 1/8 inch @ 100 yards, my Marlins stay between 2 and 3 inches.

[docone31]

I use either 4895, or 4064. Started with that, and still works.

[303Guy]

I used AR2208/Varget in my MkI with 220gr boolits and got my 'brag' group. Total of seven shots fired, all fell in the same 'group area' with no leading. Now I am using AR2209/H4350 (closer to IMR4350) but have not range tested these. Nor have I fired enough through the bore to say whether there will be leading. But it looks promising. (The idea of the switch is to fill the case more).

[Black Wolf]

4350, 4895, & 4064. Kewl, I got all 3 of those. Another thing I'll fiddle with if powder changes don't work, and that is change in bullet hardness. I'm using WW water quenched with a BHN of probably around 19. More experimentation due.

[docone31]

I also mixed in a little zinc.
I get great results, no leading, no pressure signs. I do use full tilt loads though.
If it worked in only one example I had, I would be wondering. I have four rifles, of two calibers. They all like the particular combination I am useing.
One factor MIGHT be the ratio of sizeing I use. In both the .30s, and .303 British, I size the prime to .308. In the .30s I wrap with notebook paper, then size down to .309. With the .303, I size to .308, then wrap with notebook paper, then size to .314.
From what I have been reading, I suspect that ratio has something to do with it. I also use regular cast molds for both calibers. I believe, the sized lube lands also contribute to accuracy, and no leading. It seems that smooth castings perform only with pure lead, or close to and lighter loads.
This is with the smokeless loads, I have no experience with BP in paper patching.

[leftiye]

Black wolf - Maybe try wrapping your boolits unsized, lube a little, and size to .335". You'll get a denser, tighter, lubricated patch (won't gas cut).

[303Guy]

Something I have been trying is wetting my patches with diluted paper glue. The idea is to strengthen and harden the patch so that it firstly stays on the boolit during seating and firing and secondly so it will cut and come off on exiting the muzzle. I found this today on 303british.com

"Paper patching .308 bullets with two wraps of 8 oz. "onionskin" paper will bring their diameter up to about .316 to .317, allowing these to be shot in the most generous .303 barrel. However, you need to seat the bullet without tearing the paper jacket in the process. I have used water-soluble white glue (Elmer's) to "wet" the paper patch and create a good tough paper jacket. "

[Black Wolf]

Black wolf - Maybe try wrapping your boolits unsized, lube a little, and size to .335". You'll get a denser, tighter, lubricated patch (won't gas cut).

I tried that too. I took the .329 (as cast), paper patched, and wrapped and got .336" without a gas check, and had the worst leading yet. Both the lands and grooves at the muzzle were caked with lead after 5 shots. I had those wrapped with notebook paper.

Then I tried plain based bullets (without Gas check) using 13.5 grains of Red Dot. Awful group and again some leading. Those were .329" (as cast) and lubed.

This is starting to drive me bonkers.

The best I've got so far was gas checked bullets, sized down to .325" and paper patched up to .332", and lubed the patched, loaded with 21 grains of 2400. Today, I'm gonna' try the 13 grains of Red Dot with a patched .325" patched up to .332", then lubed, but this time I'm gonna' use a Gas Check. Without a check was pitiful at 20 yards.

I'm also gonna' try the same bullet (.325" patched and lubed up to .332") using a slower powder and again, with a gas check.

Any efforts without a gas check have been dismal. Also, when I use a check I'm not covering the base of the gas check with the patch, I'm only wrapping the exterior / sides of the bullet, not the base. Without a check, I do cover the bottom of the bullet with the paper.

By the way, my bullets are about 14 BHN if that has any factor on the outcome.

[Black Wolf]

Something I have been trying is wetting my patches with diluted paper glue. The idea is to strengthen and harden the patch so that it firstly stays on the boolit during seating and firing and secondly so it will cut and come off on exiting the muzzle. I found this today on 303british.com


I've also heard of using soda pop, having the stickiness of sugar in it.

[Black Wolf]

Ok - fiiiinnnnaaaaallllyyyy got a decent group at 20-25 yards (anything previous to this I was getting like 1.5' [yes, feet] groups.

I tried the 13 grains of Red Dot, w/ gas check, patched to .332", and lubed it with Alox and got a real tight group at 20-25 yards. Group was like 3".

I think I'll still try a slower powder to see if I can bump of the velocity but I'll need to cast more bullets.

... I can breath now knowing the rifle isn't mysteriously out of whack.

Update...........................Chrony Info
Impeccable:
5 shots using the above load - 13 gr Red Dot, gas check, patched to .332, lubed w/ Alox

1. 1409 fps
2. 1416 fps
3. 1407 fps
4. 1406 fps
5. 1407 fps

AVG: 1409 fps
ES: 10
SD: 4

Group 4.5" at 80 yards. While the group is fair to good, the Chorny info is fantastic. Now if I just do my part. I wouldn't take it hunting with that load, but sure is a great plinker.


..............Another Update
Decided to do some BB gun practice with the kids. My 5 yr old son is a lefty, and has a hard time not aiming with his right eye. So, teaching him to concentrate with his left-eye (dominant) instead of using his right eye. Working on keeping the buttstock against the shoulder. Yesterday, he had a hard time without the patch. Today, he was nailing the target. By the way, BB guns shoot at 240fps.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Kids/kidsshooting5-31-09002.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Kids/kidsshooting5-31-09007.jpg
...this says it all.....
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Kids/kidsshooting5-31-09003.jpg

[windrider919]

Black Wolf, I still think you are using too fast of a powder. Way back on post #11 Docone31 was asking the same thing. Several other posters asked too. I went back and read the entire thread from the start and your bullet size and wrap seems to be fine. So even though you got a SD of just 4 which is usually an indication of consistency I have seen that not be true on occasion. Would you try some medium burning powders so we could see the results?

[docone31]

Yeah, I use either 4895, or 4064. Good clean burn.
I found, going on the lighter side of the load, I get lousey groups, and carbon necks.
With paper patching, we are not firing a modified cast load.
I treat them like jacketeds, with less fouling.

[Black Wolf]

Black Wolf, I still think you are using too fast of a powder. Way back on post #11 Docone31 was asking the same thing. Several other posters asked too. I went back and read the entire thread from the start and your bullet size and wrap seems to be fine. So even though you got a SD of just 4 which is usually an indication of consistency I have seen that not be true on occasion. Would you try some medium burning powders so we could see the results?


Ok - I'll need to cast more bullets, may take a few days because I'm traveling out of town for the next few. These next ones I'll try both 4895 and 4064, using the minimum load data for jacketed bullets. For my own notes: Use .325" sized, PP to .335", No check, light lube.