357 loads in .38 cases? why not?

[Rocky Raab]

I see no text to go with the thread title, but if that's the sum total of your question, here goes:

Because with less case volume in a 38 Special case, a 357 load would send pressures way, WAY beyond even the already high 45,000 psi or so of normal magnum loads.

Your gun's life expectancy would be precisely one shot.

[atr]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
No 357 load in a 38 case......NO NEVER !!!
just think of what will happen if that load geta fired in a revolver only made to take the pressures of the 38 special.
Yikes what a dumb thought

[jhrosier]

Anybody want to guess why the 358156 has two crimp grooves?

Jack

[wiljen]

I load 357 level loads in 38 length cases because the 358429 will not chamber in model 27-28 S&W if loaded to the crimp groove in 357 cases. The good news is these are too long to fit in 38 specials due to the OAL. I also clear mark the boxes they are stored in so if I'm gone someone else will know what they are.

[Onlymenotu]

BECAREFUL OUT THERE....THIS IS YOUR WARNING (http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/High%20Speed%20.38%20Special%20Loads.htm)<--- not a new idea.... good luck

[Terrier]

In the 50's and 60's there was an article in the gun magazines every few months about getting 357 preformance out of 38 Special cases. Please note: this is not using 357 data in 38 cases. Back then it was in vogue to hot rod every case there was, sometimes leading to disaster. We have so much more information and so many more tools at our disposal than back then. Such work is best left to the very experienced reloader. The best advise is stick to the reloading manuals.
Terrier

[bowhunter]

Why do people want such a hot load anyway? What are they trying so hard to kill other than themselves?

[Terrier]

Again going back to the 50' and 60's, all the cop shops and target shooters were generating tons of empty .38 Special cases and you had to pay good money for the .357 cases. Empty .38's were in about the same boat then as 9MM's were before the great compnent shortages of 2009.
Terrier

[Terrier]

Again going back to the 50' and 60's, all the cop shops and target shooters were generating tons of empty .38 Special cases and you had to pay good money for the .357 cases. Empty .38's were in about the same boat then as 9MM's were before the great component shortages of 2009.
Terrier

[Recluse]

It's called a +P+ and it's a hot load.

There was a reason that for a long time, +P+ loads were only available to law enforcement. Manufacturers hoped that agency and department armorers were smart enough to know which officers/agents were carrying what weapons and what weapons could handle what (hot) loads.

Secondly, I carried 9mm +P+ rounds in the 9mm weapons I was either issued or carried. Still carry that load in my carry 9mm. BUT, I sure don't practice with those rounds. They will eat most guns up in short order--exception being Glocks (and maybe today's other plastic guns that have a bit more flex and give). I've even seen H&K's torn up after getting a steady diet of overly hot ammo.

I concern myself more with the projectile for defensive or hunting purposes. I then match the powder and charge to get the ballistics I need/desire. And in over thirty years of reloading, I've never needed--nor desired--to have a handloaded .38 Special be that hot.

I do, however, regularly load up TL158SWC to +P velocities for use in my L-frame Smiths. But again, there is a difference between firing a +P .38 out of a long-barrel L-frame revolver versus firing a +P+ (or hotter) round out of an old J-frame or early-model K-frame and doing it consistently.

:coffee:

[azrednek]

I've seen two 38 revolvers at gun shows that had fired 357 loads in a 38 case. Both would have been as deadly for the shooter as the target. I used to do it but after seeing a Colt OP with a broken top strap and a big chunk out of the cylinder there is just no way. The Colt was shot with loads he inherited from his brother. Been many years but I believe the seller told me the 38's he pulled after the mis-hap were loaded with something like 14 grs of 2400. The other one, an Armenius brand revolver. The seller said he put the 357 loads in 38 cases and it was forgotten about and he shot them a few years later. There is some good data out there on 38+P loads, consider that instead.

[crowbeaner]

The hottest loads I put in a 38 case are 11 grains of 2400 under a 358429 and the Skeeter Skelton combination of 13.5 of 2400 and the 358156 seated out and crimped in the lower groove. IF YOU LOAD THESE LOADS for yourself, use once fired cases, an ACCURATE POWDER MEASURE LIKE A UNIFLOW!!!!! and standard not magnum primers!!!!!!! The Skeeter load uses the HOLLOWPOINT VERSION of the 358156!!!!!IF YOU USE THE SOLID BOOLIT--- LOAD 12.5 grains!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

The hottest loads I put in a 38 case are 11 grains of 2400 under a 358429 and the Skeeter Skelton combination of 13.5 of 2400 and the 358156 seated out and crimped in the lower groove. IF YOU LOAD THESE LOADS for yourself, use once fired cases, an ACCURATE POWDER MEASURE LIKE A UNIFLOW!!!!! and standard not magnum primers!!!!!!! The Skeeter load uses the HOLLOWPOINT VERSION of the 358156!!!!!IF YOU USE THE SOLID BOOLIT--- LOAD 12.5 grains!!!!

Skeltons loads go back even a little further than his writings of the. I believe the 358156 was designed by Thompson fo jus this purpose. It was mostly for use in S&W 38/44 revolver which were made pre-.357. There were heavy 38/44 factory loads even. Those were heavy loads in .38 Specila cases and were marked on the boxes for use in the appropriate guns only. The loads with 358156 were to be seated out and the case mouth crimped in the second groove.

Back in the '70s there was a lot of .38 brass availabel and nott much .357 brass. The .38 Special was the darling of the FBI and most police agancies so as a young LEO I accumilated lots of it. I also had 2 .357s to feed and not much money to "waste" on .357 brass when I had thousands of .38s. Hence I put the 358156 to good use using the 12.5 gr load of 2400. The bullets were seated to the second crimp groove and offered a ready visual check so I never put one in a .38.

The pressures of such a load, while higher than +P .38s, is not such that it will probably not blow up a quality or medium size .38 revolver. The continued use would probably not do them much good though. A fellow reloader/LEO and I did put 50 shots through a 2" M10 S&W slated to be destryed (court order) held in a Ransom Rest. After the 50 shots of the 12.5 gr 2400/358156 it seemed absolutely no worse for wear. The M10 was then returned to the evidence locker and later destroyed via torch. I'm not advocating shooting these loads in a .38 Special, just reporting the facts of what happened when I did.

I never had a problem with such loads being put in .38s and I had and used just as .38s as .357s. The long seated 358156 is redily identifiable. I Really don't see any difference of these loads in .38 cases between the heavier 45 Colt loadings for Ruger or the heavier loading for the Marlins and Ruger/Mausers in 45-70.

While I myself post cautions about overloading such cartridges I do not say "never, NOOOOO, the world will end if you do, etc. I always, as do most others, mention to be sure to keep such loads in the realm of pressures intended for the firearm used. I don't see the doomsday warnings as seen on this thread concerning those other cartridges. I have to ask; "what is the difference?" There isn't any difference is the answer.

Also I have loaded WW, R-P, Peters and WCC .38 cases many times with the loads mentioned and never had a problem with pressure. The .38 case is up to the pressures involved. While I've sufficient .357 cases these days I would not hesitate to use the 12.5 gr 2400/358156 load in .38 cases again if need be.

Larry Gibson

[GLL]

:) :)

http://www.fototime.com/EF221C65FA20FEE/orig.jpg

Jerry

[atr]

not saying the world will end but I still say NOOOOO.........its dangerous and irresponsible...

[hamour]

I verified to my own satisfaction that you could load heavy loads in a 38 case and feed it to a .357 mag revolver. Also colored the base and primer with a red magic marker for easy visual identification. It all worked well. This was in the early 70's.

If all I had was 38 cases and needed some powerful loads for a .357 mag revolver I would not be afraid of doing this, but I would make sure each and every round was marked in some way.

When .357 mag brass became available again I would shoot up the hot loaded .38s

[redneckdan]

Dimensionally .38 special and .357 magnum cases are much different. I can take the lyman 215gr SWC and seat it to the top crimp groove in a .38 special case with no bulges. Try to do the same thing in a .357 case and the case walls bulge out because the bullet base is hitting the bottom taper.

[GLL]

This is FACTORY 158 grain .38Special ammo for the old 34/44s that hits about 1200fps !

.38Special loads in the 1050-1200fps range are not uncommon for those of us who collect the N-frame S&W Outdoorsman & Heavy Duty revolvers.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/D61293972A2AFA2/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/F98AECD2846F77C/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/82E75D2A5113D6D/orig.jpg

[dougader]

I have one box of 357 level loads in once-fired PMC nickel plated 38 Special brass. Blue Dot and 140 grain Hornady XTP's.

There are labels on 4 sides of the box warning that the loads are high pressure and only meant for 357 magnum revolvers. The primers are marked with red marking pen. They are in my locked tool box, and I don't own any 38 special revolvers.

The loads are safe in my gun. I suppose I better shoot them up before I die, because sure as shoot someone will discover them, see that they fit in their 38 revolver and figure they just have to try them out...

[Larry Gibson]

GLL

Collecting those 38/44s and the ammo for them is obviously "dangerous and irresponsible..." so you should send them to me;-)

I wonder if any of the nay sayers realise that 12.5 gr of 2400 in a .38 Special case with a 358156 seated long generates .38 +P pressures (18-20,000 psi) or that it was a listed load in Lyman manuals (#42)? Or perhaps that Speer's # 7 manual lists 10.5 gr of 2400 under a 160 gr cast bullet seated to normal length (not seated long like a 358156). Seemed like the thing to do at the time.

Larry Gibson

[DanWalker]

One thing not mentioned is that the continued practice of shooting 38 cases in 357 chambers can leave a nasty soot ring built up just in front of the case mouths.
As most of us are pretty dilligent about leaning our guns, this will likely never be a real problem.
I only bring it up because the model 66 I bought used last month had this condition to the point where it wouldn't chamber factory 357 ammo without signifigant force. I don't know how much pressures might have spiked, because as soon as I discovered this problem, I unloaded the gun and cleaned the bejeebers out of the cylinder.
I am guilty of loading HOT loads in 38 cases for use in a rossi 357 levergun I had. It was built like a safe, and I assembled some pretty insane loads for it before I became older and wiser.

[chemist308]

I'm not an expert, but I know that the 357 was developed off of the 38, and then lengthened so it would not be accidentally chambered in 38 revolvers. But wouldn't they have had to adjust the load again to achieve the same pressure as intended?

That said, won't case volume (which is directly proportional to case length in this instance) be a function of the pressure achieved? So, if you use a 357 load in a 38 case, won't you actually be creating greater pressure than in a 357 load? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you want 357 performance aren't you just looking to load +P in 38, and that is assuming your revolver can take it?

[woodsie57]

Guess I have my answers- my question relates to using such ammo in a .357 SW revolver only- seems the .38/.44 revolvers were about equally strong, judging by the powder charges/velocities. Thanks all.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm not an expert, but I know that the 357 was developed off of the 38, and then lengthened so it would not be accidentally chambered in 38 revolvers. But wouldn't they have had to adjust the load again to achieve the same pressure as intended?

That said, won't case volume (which is directly proportional to case length in this instance) be a function of the pressure achieved? So, if you use a 357 load in a 38 case, won't you actually be creating greater pressure than in a 357 load? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you want 357 performance aren't you just looking to load +P in 38, and that is assuming your revolver can take it?

Yes, case volume is a function of pressure if the OAL is for the .38 Special. Refering to the use of 358156 which was designed for the bullet to be crimped in the second groove giving it close to the same AOL and thus case capcity as almost as much as a .357 magnum case. This was to increase the case capcity for the use of more 2400 in 38/44 revolvers. Seating that bullet out to the second crimp obviously with the same effective AOL as a .357 has the affect of lowering pressures.

It also then became common practice to use such loads in .357 revolvers when those came out. The Lyman Reloader's handbook, circa 1960, shows such loads. They list as a "heavy load" 12.5 gr of 2400 under the 358156 solid bullet and 13.5 gr under the 358156HP. The bullets have to be seated to the second crimp groove to get that much powder in the case. Pressure wise those are top end .38 Special +P+ loads (I am not recommending their use in .38 Special revolvers only reporting the facts).

Larry Gibson

[zxcvbob]

IIRC, the maximum OAL of .357 Magnum and .38 Special is the same, only the case length is different. So loading .357 data in .38 brass and seating the bullets long to keep the pressure from spiking will work, but it probably will not keep the rounds from chambering in a .38 Special.

I do load some .38/44 HiVel equivalent loads for my Marlin carbine (it actually feeds Specials better than Magnums, and I get one more round in the magazine) but like I stated in that other thread, I vividly mark every round so they don't get mixed up. (if one of them did accidently get in my Model 15, I'm pretty sure it could safely handle the pressure, it's not that different from a Model 19, but it wouldn't be good for it -- I don't even shoot +P's in that gun)

[Big Dave]

Dad and I did this back in the early 60s but seated the boolits long enough that they wouldn't chamber in a 38 cylinder to prevent accidents. mostly with the gas checked Lyman158 gr swc. Also loaded full bore 357 loads with the 125 gr. spire point 9mm cast from pure linotype, local state troopers loved em for road block duty. they would penetrate the grill, radiator and fan blades and still break an engine block.

[Rocky Raab]

As somebody else here wrote so VERY well: just what are you trying to kill besides yourself?

I'll add: Or your unsuspecting grandkids after you are gone?

[vanilla_gorilla]

Yes, whatever would we have done with a hot loaded round that would fit in a .38 revolver with only the markings of the box and the common sense of the user to prevent issues?

Oh wait, that was called the .38-44 and worked rather well.

[softpoint]

Elmer Keith,in Loading for Sixguns, did ,indeed recommend the 13.5 gr. 2400 with his 173gr bullet for both the strong .38's and the .357. He did say you could go to 15 gr. 2400 with the 160 gr. in the M27, and crimp over the front band with .357 cases. Crimping over the front band with that bullet would just about reduce you to .38 sp. capacity! reference,p44 of RCBS third edition reloading guide.
I do use the 13.5 gr. load in my M67 for a field load, but I don't recommend it for any .38 for regular use, and NOT in any cheap revolvers such as the old RG. :razz:

[Rocky Raab]

Elmer Keith used a lot of balloon-head cases, chlorate primers and the older, cooler version of 2400.

If you assume that nothing changes over the span of 75 years, you'd be typing this on a Smith-Corona by a kerosene lamp - as Elmer also did.

[sturf]

the 358429 is supposed to be crimped on the grove in 38 spec. and on the front driving band in .357. then it will chamber. been loading these for 40 years and never had a problem chambering in anything but hey; I read the manual.

[Dale53]

Jerry;
I am a photographer and those are absolutely EXCELLENT photos!

My two cents:
Heavy .38 Special loads were intended ONLY for the "N" frame 38/44 as illustrated in Jerry's pictures. They were NOT .357 magnum loads in .38 Special cases but .38/44 loads in .38 Special cases. Some different...

Dale53

[Papa smurf]

Ha Rocky Raab-------Need your help-------What do you mean by cooler 2400.
Been using it for 35 years now and have not found any difference.
My load is 14gr in a .357 case and a 173 gr 50 /50 lead WW bullet.
Papa Smurf

[vanilla_gorilla]

Ha Rocky Raab-------Need your help-------What do you mean by cooler 2400.
Been using it for 35 years now and have not found any difference.
My load is 14gr in a .357 case and a 173 gr 50 /50 lead WW bullet.
Papa Smurf


Common knowledge is that 2400 has been reformulated, about the time that Alliant took over production from Hercules. I've read here and there of people doing tests and finding little to no difference, but they are the exception, not the rule.

I just finished loading another 50 rounds of the exact same loading myself, though with a slightly harder boolit.

[ChuckS1]

Common knowledge? First I've heard of it. Hasn't made a difference that I can tell when I load from the older manuals. Maybe I'm the exception.

If you know what you're doing and exercise a little common sense, you'll be fine.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Common knowledge? First I've heard of it. Hasn't made a difference that I can tell when I load from the older manuals. Maybe I'm the exception.

If you know what you're doing and exercise a little common sense, you'll be fine.

Maybe common knowledge is like common sense, and not really as common as it sounds. :kidding:

[Nora]

you'd be typing this ---- by a kerosene lamp

I do regularly, tonight being no exception. I much prefer the yellow glow to almost anything with a cord attached to it. :wink:

Nora

[Bret4207]

There is a difference between loading a 38 case to 357 levels (can do, have done, will continue to do so, those cases are segregated) and just sticking a 357 load in a 38 case. Some folks feel this is foolish and are certianly entitled to their opinion. Others feel that by marking the boxes and cases and letting those around us know just what goes in what gun we;ll be okay. I fall into the latter category.

FWIW- I used Skeeter type loads in a Colt Agent way back when with no problems. I wouldn;t do it today, but it works.

[pmeisel]

Re 2400 reformulation:

I have read the opinion of several on boards that 2400 was "reformulated" when Alliant took over from Hercules.

I have read from others, who seemed at least equally respected and well-informed, that there was no "reformulation", just some normal lot-to-lot variation that made the first Alliant lots seem a little less powerful.

If you are working carefully up to max in your own gun, or staying well below max, it shouldn't make any difference.

[Mk42gunner]

Re 2400 reformulation:


...If you are working carefully up to max in your own gun, or staying well below max, it shouldn't make any difference.

This is what everyone should be doing; not just blindly following loading recipies.


Robert

[Papa smurf]

Just recieved an e-mail from Alliant Powder ----------there has been NO CHANGE with 2400 since I started using it in 1960.
Good shooting --------------------Papa Smurf

[jdgabbard]

Realistically, if you make sure you label everything you load, and put all the important information in the box with the loaded rounds you shouldn't have a problem. That said, I've got about 300pc of .357mag brass I have really used in a while. I've been loading most of my boolits in 38spl brass and if at all possible loading to over OAL for the 38spl. That way it won't chamber in anything but my .357s.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Just recieved an e-mail from Alliant Powder ----------there has been NO CHANGE with 2400 since I started using it in 1960.
Good shooting --------------------Papa Smurf

This fits in with the experience of my shooting partner. Because of this thread, we re-chronoed his Keith load .44 Magnum the other day. Sure enough, 22 grains and a 429421 provided a shade under 1400 fps from a 5 inch 629, about on par with what old Elmer was getting.

[tadeus]

I´ve been using the 158 gr LSWC with 9 grs of bluedot in 38 special cases (used once); with excellent results.

158 gr LSWC 8.5 grs of Bluedot 1120 fps avg
158 gr LSWC 9.0 grs of Bluedot 1230 fps avg
158 gr LSWC 9.5 grs of Bluedot 1330 fps avg

Guns involved:

S&W heavyduty 4" barrel
S&W Highway Patrolman (28-2) 4" barrel

[uscra112]

Still shooting up about half an ammo can full of random .38 Spl. handloads I got at an estate auction last month. In my L-frame .357 S&W. Judging by the report and the recoil, some of these are dangerously hot for a normal .38 Spl. When you load beyond what is safe in the weakest gun that takes that cartridge, make sure you live long enough to prevent them from falling into inexperienced hands, or make sure the buyer at your liquidation sale is savvy enough not to trust you.

BTW I wouldn't have bid on that lot, but there were three full boxes of .32 S&W dating from the 1930's in that same can, along with four unopened boxes of Zero remanufactured wadcutters. Got the whole lot for what one of the .32 S&W boxes would go for on G.B. :bigsmyl2:

[NHlever]

Since it made sense to me, I did run some loads through Quick Load to see what the difference might be. As suspected loads with bullets seated to the same OAL produce very similar pressures in both .38, and .357 cases. Longer OAL's lower pressures, and shorter OAL's increase pressures regardless of which case is used of course. Just seating boolits to the crimp groove in both cases can get you in trouble quickly with the shorter case when using magnum loads. I have found very little velocity difference when using .38 Special loads in the .357 case which I often do.

Having shot deer with standard .38 Special loads using the Speer 146 grain HJHP I see no reason to go beyond what manuals list for loads for both the .38 Special, and the .357 Magnum. I shoot more full house magnum loads in my .357 Mag rifles than I do in my handguns anyway. The .38 Special is such a wonderful cartridge for small game, and general use that I see no need to go trying to make it into something else. i just avoid round nose boolits in both calibers since I don't care for them for hunting at all.

[Rocky Raab]

By the way, I just noticed that it appears as though I started this thread. I did not. I was replying to a question posed by somebody else, who apparently has since deleted his post - leaving me as the first poster in the thread.

It's NOT a question I would ever ask.

[zxcvbob]

I thought I posted this before, but maybe it was in a different thread or a different forum.

I have buckets of .38 Special brass and not-so-much .357 brass. I also like that .38's eject better, and I can fit more of them in the magazine of my Marlin. But I don't like having overloads laying around (even if they are marked) that someone my find someday after I'm dead...

So I've been loading 148 grain DEWC's in 38 brass to an overall length of about 1.36" with a moderate roll crimp. They work just fine in guns chambered for .357 but will not fit in any .38 that I've tried. 7.0 grains of WSF is a good low-end "magnum" load. The pressure is probably just under 30000 psi. (It would be a good plinking load in .357 Magnum brass too if you didn't want to deal with the carbon buildup at the ends of the chambers. )

[Char-Gar]

This thing has run along long enough without me chiming in, time to do so.

There is nothing wrong with shooting 38/44 Special loads in a heavy frame 38 or a .357 Mag of any size. Shoot these in a light 38 and it will rattle it pretty good in short order.

Keep true .357 Magnum pressure loads in 357 Magnum cases in 357 Magnum revolvers.

Skeeters use of 38 Special cases loaded with 358196 over 12.5/2400 crimped in the bottom groove is just a 38/44 load. Skeeter was a shooter, lawman and writer who handloaded. He was not a handloading guru. I don't think any of his loads were original, but in common use at the time. He also shot them in N frame Smiths and good single actions to boot. It is a good load and I have used it often myself. Not a problem!.