Minot Rifle and Pistol Club

[dabsond]

OK, here's the story. About two years a go I got into collecting and shooting Milsurps. I learn of the Minot Rifle and Pistol Club in Minot, ND. They charge $50 a year membership fees which entitles you to unlimited access of an outdoor range. To utilize the indoor members get a discounted price. It works out to $5 per person. I joined my first year and subsequently renewed my membership last year. The memberships run from May to May. I am active duty military stationed in Minot ND and I will be retiring in Jun of this year. I will be leaving North Dakota and hopefully never coming back. I did not renew my membership for the full price of $50. I was sure I could talk to the club and pay for the 30 days I was requesting before I move. Here is the email traffic. You will have to start at the bottom and work your way up.


Mr. Taft,

As for what the MRPC will do for me is take, take, take my money for more than two years then do nothing in return. If I do my math correctly, an annual membership of $50 works out to about $4.20 a month. Not to mention my weekly visits to the indoor range this winter at $10-$15 a visit. You want to charge me $20 for the single month I will be able to use the outdoor range. I think not. I am sorry to realize what I thought to be a great organization when I first started turned out to be a money grabbing clique of elite members. I am sorry I don’t shoot in your weekly competitions however, that should not make me any less of a member.

I plant to post these emails on the numerous shooting user groups I am a member of so that any other unsuspecting persons will steer clear of the MRPC.

Dan Dabson

From: membership@minotrifleandpistol.com [mailto:membership@minotrifleandpistol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:07 PM
To: Dan Dabson
Subject: RE: Questions about membership

Due to your military service, here is what MRPC will do for you. If you renew your membership for $50.00, the club will refund part of your membership dues based on when you return your membership card. If the card is returned in May, the club will refund $30.00. If the card is returned in June, the club will refund $20.00. After June, there will be no refund.
Toben Taft, Director of Membership

On Mon 27/04/09 11:37 AM , "Dan Dabson" dan@dabson.us sent:
Is there any way I can pay a prorated amount for the 30 days?

Dan Dabson

From: membership@minotrifleandpistol.com [mailto:membership@minotrifleandpistol.com]
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:35 AM
To: Dan Dabson
Subject: Re: Questions about membership

Sorry. The outdoor range lock combination is changed in early May. The new combination is available only to paid members.



On Sat 25/04/09 10:03 AM , "Dan Dabson" dan@dabson.us sent:
My name is Dan Dabson. I have been a member for the past two years. I am retiring from the Air Force and leaving the area on 12 Jun of this year. Is there any way my current membership could be extended until the end of May without paying the full $50 yearly membership? Please let me know.

Thanks,

Dan Dabson


Am I totally being unrealistic here?

[cheese1566]

HMMMM, that's too bad...

[ktw]

One of the many reasons it can be difficult to find people willing to take on the task of organizing and maintaining range facilities and shooting events.

-ktw

[sundog]

Suck it up and drive on...

[crabo]

When I look at paying $10 for a single visit for an outdoor range or $15 for the local indoor range, it seems like a good deal to me. I think once you move away, you will appreciate what you had.

Is the $15 worth that much aggrivation?

That's my 2 cents,

[The Double D]

You now know the conditions for one month membership. It's up to you to decide if you want to spend the money.

[HeavyMetal]

Ya know I think I'm gonna side a bit with Dan.

He's been a member 2 yrs, paid the required fee's as asked. He is a member of the armed forces based in the area.

He likes to shoot, as do we all, and he wants to continue using the range until he "muster's" out. It's only 30 days!

So far so good. He's done all the right things and made a reasonable request.

Lets look at the Range point of view The combo on the gate lock is changed every year. I get that. Some members take guests, they can see the combo if they try hard, and may use the range without dues. Makes sense to change combo's rather than have to chase Keys all over the place.

With this system the range does not have to pay for "body" to be on site to supervise. I get that to.

The proposed "refund" is not unreasonable but is diffinately out of line with the "average" monthly break down of the base fee. On a fairness level I give this refund offer a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10.

A better solution would have been to issue a statement that the gate combo would not be changed until July first. The refund could be $40.00 instead of $30 and, I think that would have been fair.

I do not know either party and can't believe ND has enough shooters at this range to make this an impractical solution.

For me this would not be a matter of money it would be principal. You can pay the fee and continue to shoot. I would pass and wait 30 days and set up at a new range at my retirement area and chaulk this up to experience.

I would also make sure that I was invovled with my new club to a greater extent and make sure this didn't happen to someone else on my watch.

If you have shooting buddies that go to the same range, politely advise them of why you are no longer using the facilities. I might also go as far as writing a letter to the editor of the local newspaper and include a hard copy of your emails to the range personnel.

Sadly you will be out of the area before this is resolved and I'm real sure Toben Taft knows this.

I'd write the letter then move on, life's to short!

[carpetman]

Years ago if you took out a loan and paid it off half way through---you saved about half the interest. Then folks got creative in prorating the interest and you pay it off half way through you get charged about 90% of the interest. Sounds like bankers,realtors, lawyers or whomever that did this creative thinking may be running the gun club. When I was in military I would have a fishing license from the state I was stationed in, one from my home state( Texas) for when I was home on leave, then I'd get transferred and have to get another at my new station---none of this prorated. My nephew is currently in the Army and he told me he now gets free Texas hunting and fishing license free from Texas( his home of record)----don't know when this change took place but it is a move in the right direction. I really never understood why I had to pay to visit a National Park when I was serving in the military. I don't understand why I have to pay an out of state non resident fee to hunt FEDERAL land in another state---but residents of that state don't pay it. If NRA got out of politics and back into rifles, they could have ranges members could use. Enjoy your retirement MSGT Dan. Where are you relocating to?

[Wayne Smith]

The range I use has always been privately owned. Not always well run. It was recently purchased by a couple of guys and use of the range went from $60 per year with unlimited use to $300 per year plus extra to use the 200yd and 300yd range. Of course, before them there was no 300yd range. Plus they have added shotgun facilities and more open facilities suitable for the military and, not unsurprising, CAS shooters. I now shoot on an hourly basis. Many complained, me among them, but I see the management changes and find little to complain about. I don't have to pay $300 if I don't want to.

[jameslovesjammie]

I am a member of the Minot Rifle and Pistol Club. Have been for a few years now. I, like you, don't compete in the matches. I mostly use the lower outdoor range. I would use the indoor more, but wish they were open during the day. I hardly went the past winter because the weather was so bad.

For those interested, here are the membership fees breakdown:

For $50 a year, you get:

1. Unlimited access to the outdoor range. The outdoor range consists of four different areas; a 50 yard pistol pit, a 25 yard pistol bay (mostly for IPSC type practice), a 200 yard general shooting area, and a 700 yard rifle range.

2. A 50% discount to shoot at the BRAND NEW 25 yard indoor range, complete with state of the art ventilation system, bullet trap, sound deadening material, and classroom. All targets are paid for by the club. If you don't have eye and ear protection, the club gives you some to use.

3. One of the best Junior shooting programs in the country. I did notice on your website that you have kids. You did have them involved, right? The cost for them to shoot in the program is $10 for the first child and $5 for the next. ALL EQUIPMENT IS SUPPLIED. Guns, ammo, shooting jackets and pants, and safety equipment. Juniors shoot 22 rimfire, air rifle, and air pistol.

4. Free safety classes held in partnership with the Minot Police Department (who have their own range, by the way, so not to intrude on our club)

5. The opportunity to shoot IDPA, USPSA, Cowboy Action,
ICORE, and Three Gun. Yes, they cost to shoot, but I don't think any club holds them for free.

I'd say for the money, you really get your worth here. Sorry to hear you don't like North Dakota, but it doesn't seem like you like it here anyway since you say you're hopefully never coming back. Just try to remember that there are people who do choose to live in this area...BECAUSE WE LIKE IT HERE.

Incase you haven't noticed, a large percentage of the club is military, or retired military. I guess not everyone sees things from your point of view.

[jameslovesjammie]

And our club teaches young adults how to do the right thing. Please read this article. Couldn't be prouder of "Our" kids. Please read this article.

http://www.minotrifleandpistol.com/integrity_page.htm

http://www.minotrifleandpistol.com/

[madcaster]

Hey,I was stationed there at Minot AFB,84-86!Glad it's still going!
My brother,another Air Force member told me,there's a woman behind every tree-but the only trees were back here in Virginia it seemed![smilie=1:

[Harry O]

I spent the longest decade of my life when I was in Minot for three months back in the early 1970's. It was in the end of the winter/early spring. The only cover from the Canadian winds was a small depression in the plains that the Mouse river ran through. I strongly believe that there was a town people vs military men thing going on there, at least at that time. No need to go into details, but it is sufficient to say that I am glad to be gone from there. Doesn't sound like things have changed much.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/D1179361870321A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/3A1B23457391FEC/standard.jpg

............A couple pics of our range.

Our range has a $50 a year membership fee. No indoor range. It goes to 200 yards. There are 28 benches and a 75' long pistol line to the right of the benches. The range is open 7 days a week from 0800 to 1700. Members shoot for $6 all day and non-members pay $10. There is a full time paid NRA certified rangemaster and a RSO (range safety officer) on duty while the range is open.

The range supplies your target board, and you supply your own targets, or you can buy them there. There are called cease fires every 20 minutes, firearms are empty, open and benched with shooters behind the red line during cease fires. It's a great place to shoot.

I'm afraid I'd probably be canned if I was running the range in Minot :-) My reply to Dan would have been that he could utilize the outdoor range for free through the month of June, with our thanks for his service to us all, and have a great retirement. Doesn't matter to me about anything else the club does or doesn't do. If allowing a retiring or otherwise departing serviceman/woman free access for one month is going to cause them a problem, it would seem to me they have some other issues they need to take a look at.

I don't know how large the military presence is there in Minot, and I guess it really doesn't matter if it was all just shut down as certainly Minot wouldn't be affected in the least, right?

Fact is, the more I think about it the more pissed off I get. Guess I'm just odd.

..................Buckshot

[madcaster]

I never did have any problems with the civilian attitude being ill towards the military prescence.There's good folks and bad folks everywheres.

[mag44uk]

I will play Devil`s advocate in that I can see both sides of the coin. I run my own business and can see how its necessary to monitor out goings and incomings. If you supply a unique business (local shooting range) and it goes under through lack of financial control,that would be a bad thing for everyone.
On the other hand it wouldnt have hurt to have made the gesture of goodwill and given the month FOC.
On yet another hand how may free months does management give away for similar cases?
Tricky one in that no one really wins.
Good luck to you though in the future.
Tony

[M-Tecs]

Dan. I have never been to the Minot Rifle and Pistol club. I do not have a dog in this fight other than I am originally from ND and I am currently in the military.

I am very surprised by your sense of entitlement. You stated that “what the MRPC will do for me is take, take, take my money for more than two years then do nothing in return.” What do you call being able to use what appears to be world class facility at a very reasonable cost?

The rules are clear. You need to be a paid member and membership starts 1 May. The membership dates will be covered in the bylaws which are filed with the state of ND.

MRPC will carry an insurance based on its membership numbers. They have to pay the full amount based on a yearly membership. You want a month at $4.20. They offered you a month at $20.00 and you are bad mouthing them and the community over a difference of $15.80. If I were in your situation I would be very appreciative of $20.00 offer.

As an active duty MSgt. you earn more than 90% of the people in the area. Since you are retiring on 12 June you’re probable on terminal leave status. Planning on shooting most every day until you leave?

We the military do a great job, but so do the fire fighters, the police, the healthcare professionals and various other groups that put themselves in harm’s way. We all chose our careers. Having a sense of entitlement based on a career you chose is in very bad form.

The last time I deployed to the Sand Box a group of friends and I went out to the Outback Steak House. When the manager found out I was leaving the next day for the Sand Box he picked up my tab. I was very appreciative but I certainly did not feel entitled to it and if it was not offered I would not badmouth Outback.

I very strongly believe your sense of entitlement does not represent yourself or the AF in a positive manor. Hopefully you are not coming to a club near me any time soon.

Joel

[Echo]

+1 for Buckshot. I believe the range should have comped DD a month's use. On the other hand, DD, suck it up. Agreeing w/JJK above, you aren't entitled. The club had an opportunity to do something for you that they didn't have to, and chose not to. Press on with your retirement.

[M-Tecs]

Buckshot

“I don't know how large the military presence is there in Minot, and I guess it really doesn't matter if it was all just shut down as certainly Minot wouldn't be affected in the least, right?”

A quick Google search lists Minot AFB population at and 7,599 with a total city population of 36,579 so 20% of the community lives on base. I would say that if AFB shut down is would have major affect.

Joel

[dabsond]

The purpose of this post was to get a feeling as to what people thought. For the most part it was pretty much what I expected with a few exceptions.

I am very surprised by your sense of entitlement. You stated that “what the MRPC will do for me is take, take, take my money for more than two years then do nothing in return.” What do you call being able to use what appears to be world class facility at a very reasonable cost?

-- First off if you have never used the outdoor rifle range here you would not know. The outdoor range is poorly maintained. If you want to use a target stand you better bring it with you. The shooting benches are in a sad state of disrepair. With the current membership roles there is a lot of money not being spent on the upkeep of the range. The club's priorities seems to be the indoor range. Sure they offer a lot of programs for kids in the local area. Don't forget they receive a lot of grant money to make this happen.

As an active duty MSgt. you earn more than 90% of the people in the area. Since you are retiring on 12 June you’re probable on terminal leave status. Planning on shooting most every day until you leave?

-- I am not quite sure about earning more than 90% of the people in this area. Unless you haven't they have struck oil out here. As for terminal leave, I don't have time to sit around and shoot every day. Most of that time will be used trying to look for a job in a new location. It was my plan to use the range once maybe twice prior to leaving. My weapons will be packed up for an unknown amount time.

We the military do a great job, but so do the fire fighters, the police, the healthcare professionals and various other groups that put themselves in harm’s way. We all chose our careers. Having a sense of entitlement based on a career you chose is in very bad form.

--In my original letter to the director of membership I explained I was retiring and leaving the area so they would not assume I would be around to use the range after the 30 days I requested. My intention was not to gain special favor. Trust me, in this town none are given.

I very strongly believe your sense of entitlement does not represent yourself or the AF in a positive manor. Hopefully you are not coming to a club near me any time soon.

--As to representing the Air Force in a unpositive manner. I am not the one who addressed someone in a post by using rank. I find it very unprofesisonal to address me by rank then use your military rank in closing. A ring of resentment is present in your response. It's not my fault Air National Guard personnel have different retirement benefits than I do, not to mention promotion criteria. As to coming to a club near you, you never know what will happen.

[Recluse]

Am I totally being unrealistic here?

Absolutely.

First off, I've been to Minot, ND, by way of Minot AFB ("Why not Minot? Freezin' 's the reason.") Not a thing wrong with the town or any of the folks there. My biggest gripe with ND is that it's cold, cold, cold, cold--and that's just in summer. Gets really bad in winter.

The US Air Force doesn't change their entire set of regs to accommodate one individual airman. Nor does the USAF change the regs to accommodate airmen on terminal leave.

Why should a private business? The Minot pistol club had absolutely nothing to do with what orders you got that PCS'd you to MAFB, nor the timing of the orders, nor the timing of your discharge or PCS elsewhere. And, you're not the only member and I'll venture to guess you're not the only active duty, retired, or reservist military member of that club.

I was in the military a long time ago and I remember when "special treatment" or considerations were simply a dream. The best you could even hope for was the occasional military-discount at certain locations or retailers--and they were rare as hell.

What would be the difference between you, as a senior NCO and someone who was with the ND State Highway Patrol who got orders to move to the other side of the state? Or a civilian who took a new job in Minnesota?

Why should the club change, alter or even create policies to accommodate individuals? Pretty soon, the club would be having EVERYONE coming forward with "special exceptions" and then pretty soon, there would be no more club.

:coffee:

[trooperdan]

Am I totally being unrealistic here?


Yes, totally unrealistic and unreasonable, IMO

[M-Tecs]

“As to representing the Air Force in a unpositive manner. I am not the one who addressed someone in a post by using rank. I find it very unprofesisonal to address me by rank then use your military rank in closing.”

I agree with you on this one. It was unprofessional so I have removed it.

“A ring of resentment is present in your response.”

Not hardly. I like my retirement just the way it is.

“As for what the MRPC will do for me is take, take, take my money for more than two years then do nothing in return. If I do my math correctly, an annual membership of $50 works out to about $4.20 a month. Not to mention my weekly visits to the indoor range this winter at $10-$15 a visit. You want to charge me $20 for the single month I will be able to use the outdoor range. I think not. I am sorry to realize what I thought to be a great organization when I first started turned out to be a money grabbing clique of elite members. I am sorry I don’t shoot in your weekly competitions however, that should not make me any less of a member.

I plant to post these emails on the numerous shooting user groups I am a member of so that any other unsuspecting persons will steer clear of the MRPC.”

You didn’t get your way so you called them names and badmouth them on various boards.

“First off if you have never used the outdoor rifle range here you would not know. The outdoor range is poorly maintained. If you want to use a target stand you better bring it with you. The shooting benches are in a sad state of disrepair. With the current membership roles there is a lot of money not being spent on the upkeep of the range. The club's priorities seems to be the indoor range. Sure they offer a lot of programs for kids in the local area. Don't forget they receive a lot of grant money to make this happen.”

It’s a club. I have been President, VP or and Board of Directors with various clubs for a total of close to twenty years. Most clubs do not have paid maintenance. If you find the facilities lacking improve them. Clubs live and die by volunteered work days from the membership.

“As to coming to a club near you, you never know what will happen”

Clubs always welcome new members with a positive attitude and a willingness to work to make the club better. I will support anyone jointing one of the clubs that I am a member of if they have positive attitude and are willing to work to make the club better.

Did you do anything to make MRPC a better club or did you just badmouth them over $15.80?

Joel

[Typecaster]

I always thought the answer to the chamber of commerce's "Why Not Minot?" promotion is "The seasons are the reason."

Winter's are "brisk"...summers tend to be "warmish" (especially in my dad's blacksmith shop when the coal forge was fired up) and muggy. How's that for understatement?

We lived in Surrey, a few miles east of Minot, and left in 1956...partially because of local CS political issues (family member on the school board). Sounds like things haven't changed much. Too many big fish in a small pond?

I've been back a few times to visit. That's enough...although we did keep the mineral rights when we sold the farm, so I guess there's still a connection.

Richard

[1Shirt]

Had you been one of my troops coming in with a compalint like that, I would have told you to suck it up and get on with your life! Seems petty to me. If you only have a couple of mo befor you retire, you need to be concentrating on something other than this!
1Shirt!:coffeecom