Remington Rolling Block Question

[Huffmanite]

Bought a military version Remington Rolling Block #1 back in the late 1960s. Found it in advertisement in American Rifleman magazine and it was described as being 43 Spanish caliber and I'm sure it is 43 Spanish. Don't remember any other description, like it was Argentine, Chilian or etc. Am trying to ID exactly what it is. 43 Spanish RBs I've seen pics of on web sites not like mine. Barrel is 36 inches from crown to rear of chamber and has 3 3/4 inch long bayonet lug. About 2 1/4 inches of barrel that is chamber is octogon, rest of barrel round. Stamped on tang to rear stock: E Remington & Sons Ilion, N.Y. U.S.A. patent dates on tang begin: May 3, 1864, May 7th, June 11th, Nov 12th; Dec 24th 1872; Dec 31st 1872; Sept 9th 1873 or 1875 (hard to read last digit); Jan 12th, March 16th (and no year stamped with these two months.)
Anyone have a suggestion on what my Remington is?

[jh45gun]

Best thing to do is to take it to a gun smith and get a chamber cast done. Or do it your self if you want to bother with getting the stuff to do it. I would bet a gunsmith would do it for hardly nothing. Then you can look it up in the Cartridges of the world book after you get the size and shape. Since Remington Made over 2 million of these for quite a few countries that would be your best bet. There were at least 3 11mm ( 43 cal) military rollers made for Spanish, Egyptian, and Scandanavian. Plus other odd calibers for some other foreign countries. These were made from 1867 thourgh 1900 so as you can see lots of possibilities exist with out checking it out. did you take the hand guard off to look for any markings. On my Model 5 1902 (smokeless reciever) under the hand guard it stated it was a 7mm so I knew it was probably for a South American Country and that is why the bore looked like a sewerpipe along with crappy wood but the reciever was sound so it became a 45/70. :) with new wood and a Green mountain 45/70 barrel. I would look under the hand guard if you have not done so and if that does not offer any clues than do a chamber cast on it. You may think it may be a 43 Spanish but could be something else. IT would not be the first time one of these was shot figureing it was one caliber like the spanish and being some other 11 mm caliber.

[jh45gun]

Just wondering why the thumbs down I would bet you paid peanuts for it back then and now days just a reciever sells for 350 bucks at gun shows for single shot projects. The Early guns were marked Remington's Ilion NY USA and one Patent date. Later models will be stamped like yours with the muliple patent dates and what you cannot read shoud be according to the book I am looking at Jan 12 and March 18 1874. The last ones were marked Remington Arms Co so your #1 would be in the middle range and the book I have does not tell what dates those are so I would have to guess your later patent dates. According to the book many military muskets were not marked as to caliber so a chamber cast probably will be your best bet.

[threett1]

JH, what did it take to turn your roller into a 45/70? I have the same receiver and would like to turn it into a 40/65 or 38/55. Do you like the Green Mountain barrel? Thanks.

[Buckshot]

....................I have a 1879 Argentine contract Remington rolling block: Below in front, with it's bayonet behind it.

http://www.fototime.com/7CD7CAD02940F78/standard.jpg

On top of the knoxform behind the rear sight it 'should' have stamped, "Modelo Argentino EN". The 'EN' is for Ejercito National, or National Army. I say should because for some reason, some didn't. The Argentine contract also sported the finest sights that Remington ever fitted to any of it's military contract BPC rolling blocks. The knoxform is also a give away. None of the big #1 actioned BP cartridge RB's had hand guards. Those came with the 1897, 1902, and 1905 smokless militarys. Your rifle should also have a rotary extractor piviting around the breechblock pin vs the long sidesaddle extractor.

These fired the Remington 43 Spanish BN (bottle neck) or 11.15x58R. It is a rather close facsimile to the 44 caliber cartridge supplied to the shooters at Creedmore in 1874, and known as the 44-77 Remington. In the case of the military rifle it was also known as the Remington-Spanish. There was also a Spanish Reformando, but the 1879's were supplied chambered for the Remington-Spanish to Argentina.
At some point, some of these were also re-chambered to 11mm Mannlicher.

As originally supplied to Argentina, the actions were tin plated to resist corrosion. Very few are seen still retaining that. When these rifles were withdrawn from front line service they were completely re-arsenaled. Anything that needed fixing or repariing was fixed, or replaced.

My rifle had been completely re-blued. You can see some minor pitting here and there, which was blued over. The barrel is in very good shiney condition and shoots like a fiend (if you can handle what must be a 12 lb trigger 8) ). The stock is perfection with not a ding, dent or scratch. I cannot figure out if it's been restocked in Mahogany or Teak. It's certainly NOT walnut as would have been the wood supplied originally.

If you open the action and shine a light from the muzzle, looking into the chamber you should see a definate shoulder as the light will define it. Barring any Cerrosafe or other casting metal, block the barrel after barely lubing the chamber then pour in melted parrafin. We're not really wanting measurements but rather a look at what the chamber looks like. If it has a definete BN it's the Remington-Spanish, or 43 Spanish.

Check out: http://www.militaryrifles.com/

.................Buckshot

[Huffmanite]

Thanks everyone for replies: Buckshot your pic & info confirmed my suspicions about it being 1879 Argentine. Because mine has no Modelo Argentino stamped on it, decided to query ya'll experts. Have one very very old, unfired black powder Union Metallic Cartridge that is 43 Spanish. It matches fire formed cases of ammo I shot in it 40 years ago. So, no doubt in my mind it's a 43 Spanish. Have acquired items needed to reload the ammo/brass I shot as a teenager. Buckshot, you have any suggested load data for 370 gr cast bullet? Know Cartridges of World shows 30 grains IMR3031 with 385 Gr bullet and I have a can of this. Used to use Hercules 2400 powder when I reloaded its brass when a teenager but don't remember the grains of 2400 I used. By the way, eat your hearts out guys, paid $35 dollars for it back then, and not a ding on stock or any rust, pitting and etc anywhere on or in it .

[Huffmanite]

Buckshot, About the wood, never gave it much thought until you mentioned it. Took a good look at mine in sunlight. Have done wood working as a hobby for many years. I'd say my rifles wood is mahogany. And by the way, there is a shoulder in chamber, and my trigger pull is heavy too.

[floodgate]

Buckshot (and others):

In discussing the argentine RB, you make reference to the "Knox Form" - the flats, or octagonal section in this case, just ahead of the receiver ring to accept a wrench for installing or removing barrels. This term is used in virtually all the books and manuals I have read on the Lee Enfirelds, and seems to be the sttandard one.

But recently, reading a 1976 English reprint of H. J. Blanch's 1909 "A Century of Guns" - he was the current generation of the London firm of that name, founded in the early 1800's - he makes reference to a "Nock's Form" of the same configuration, presumably so-called after Henry Nock, another well-known London gunsmith and inventor. Blanch's book (Pioneer Press has published a reprint also, but it is logged under Martin Rywell as author) is a real hodge-podge, badly put together, and much in need of editing (especially that Redcoat habit of scattering the illustrations throughout the book, totally out of sequence with the references in the text), and I can't find the reference just now. Hmmmm...

By the way, Blanch hated the SMLE, concluding, after several pages on the deficiencies inherent in the rear-locking bolt, two-piece stock, etc., etc.: "Taking the Lee-Enfield as a whole, it may be confifdently asserted that no gunsmith, worthy of the name, would have passed such a design. It is said that 'they do these things better in France,' and we might add Germany, Austria, Switzerland, United States of America, Russia, Japan, and most other countries." WHO GORED HIS OX??? Musta lost out in a Government design competition!

But his reference - contemporary with the development of the SMLE - to "Nock's Form" IS intriguing.

(Raining today, too soggy to get out to the shop, and I guess I've got too much time on my hands...)

floodgate

[longhorn]

A very edifying post, Floodgate-I've always wondered about that term. Incidentally, replacing the trigger return spring with a musicwire copy from much smaller stock will work wonders for the trigger pull, without any stoning or filing on an antique warhorse.

[Buckshot]

..............Huffmanite, load data for the 43 Spanish is pretty simple as it would be for about any of it's peers of the era. The most readily available is just to use any smokless data shown as suitable for the Trapdoor Springfield. All were prety much hatched out on the same stump 8) That is, with the VERY obvious exception of HM's Gov't 577-450 (short chamber) cartridge.

...............Floodgate, while gathering any and all information I could lay my hands on pertaining to the British and their long range muzzle loading (1858 to about 1875) there were many examples of Henry Nocks' 'Nock's Form' treatment. Usually done on some of the higher classes of these rifles.

Considering you have flats of various lengths and treatment raising up out of the surface of a round barrel, the workmanship was simply astounding. It is plainly a matter in this day and age of "How DID they do that!?" It is nothing to be done on a lathe, certainly would be a sphincter pukering experience today on a modern milling machine. Even so, much hand work would remain.

Some of that stuff they did, considering what they had was simply breathtaking.

....................BUckshot

[floodgate]

Rick:

There was an article in one of the black powder cartridge magazines a few months ago about a 'smith cutting Rigby flats on a barrel. Mostly milling machine work, but lots of hand finishing. SCARY!

Doug

[jh45gun]

Threett1 I bought the Green mountain barrel in 45/70 and had a gunsmith rebarrel it for me. Seems to me if I remember right he used the origional pivoting extractor but had to weld and file to fit it for the 45/70 case. It is a great receiver one of the best roller ones you can get as the breech plate has the small fireing pin hole which makes for a nice conversion as you should not have to convert the fireing pin. Good luck with your project it is worth doing and those Green Mountain Barrels are excellent.
Wood on this was a Winchester stock blank and the forarm was cut out of a chunk of walnut and the octagon channel cut with a router.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/jh45gun/RemRoller.jpg

[threett1]

Much obliged for the info. I can see me getting to it in a year or so. Already have a killer chunk of walnut for it. Just getting all my wantto's together before I do it. Did you make your own forend cap or get it somewhere?

[jh45gun]

Made it. It is basically poured 50/50 solder then shaped as I wanted it. What I did was cut down the front somewhat for the solder to have a space with a straight line around the forarm then put the forarm on the gun with a piece of sheet metal wrapped around the end to catch the solder I then poured the molten solder in place so it would form to the barrel some what too to get that octagon shape to match the barrel channel. When cool I then filed it to shape and then sanded it smooth. Afterwards I clear coated it with several coats of Clear laquer to seal in the solder.

[wills]

http://www.wisnersinc.com/rifles/remington/roll_block.html

Drawings