.357 mag and 170 grainers?

[Blackwater]

I'm planning on getting a Marlin M-94 in .357 mag. this summer, and want it to be a one load gun for everything. Have been trying to balance out the trajectory advantages of higher velocity vs. the benefits of a 180 gr. mould. I'm thinking a 170 gr. bullet may be as good a compromise between these two factors as I'll get. Do or have any of you shot 170's in the .357, and if so, do they actually shoot any flatter over 200 yds. than the 180's? Any comments and experience would be welcome here.

Also, can any of you comment on whether a tangential FN ojive, or a secant FN ojibe would likely feed better? The tangential ojive will shorten the nose a mite, but would the secant likely let me seat it out a mite longer, thus allowing equal or better room for the powder chamber when seated?

I need to quit thinking about all this stuff. My head's starting to hurt! ;-)

[imashooter2]

You are going to have near identical BC's and the velocity will be within 100 fps, so at 1800 vs 1700 launch speed, the difference in drop at 200 is going to be less than 4 inches.

You need to keep OAL down to 1.590 or so with a Marlin 1894. The C358-180RF group buy mold is about ideal.

What exactly are you planning on doing with a .357 lever at 200 yards?

[bobthenailer]

i also have a marlin 357 mag i have the group bye lee 180rf gc mold it works perfect and is very accurate with a varaity of loads and as a bonus it shoots equally well with out gas checks with my favorite plinking load consting of 357 brass /fed spp/ 4.5 tight group for a little over 1000fps . happyness is knee deep in brass . bob

[Blackwater]

At 200, mostly coyotes that I can't get closer to - probably targets of opportunity. A buddy and I usually compete to see who can shoot how much further than the other beyond conventionally accepted distances for such calibers. We'll shoot .44's out to 300 or 400, and sometimes more yards. Keeps it really interesting, though 99 44/100% of it is at clumps of dirt or some small bush out in a field. Having to guess both the range and sight picture sure keeps a fella' humble, but it'll sure make you a lot better shooter and range estimator in a pretty short time, too. That's never a bad thing. I once shot a running fox at a bit over 150 yds. He was caught out in the open, and I got him on the 6th shot. Kept missing him in the same place the last 3 previous shots.

Haven't done that in some years now, and need to get back to doing more of it. It'll sharpen our eyes and hands up better than anything else I know. He likes jacketed, and I want to convert him to "the silver side." A good bullet will help that, and for some of our shooting, 4" at 200 is really a lot. He's a tad better shot than I am, or used to be. He cheats, though. He used to be able to read newsprint at 100 yds.! Well, maybe that's a SLIGHT exaggeration, but it's close.

I haven't shot much in the past 10-15 years, nothing like I used to, and I need to get my hand back into it. Just hope there really IS some truth in that old adage about old age and treachery being able to overcome youth and vitality (and better eyes). Can I get an amen?

Actually, it probably doesn't make all that much difference, since you just have to learn whatever load you wind up with, but there's no use missing any bets in the prep stages. I think we have more fun shooting dirt clods and bushes than we do shooting hair, hide or feathers.

I've always used .44's for the longer range shooting, but I think I'd just like a smaller round so I can carry more ammo with me for the same weight load. More shooting WOULD really help me these days. Uses less lead, too, and the .357 would do well for 97% of the shooting I do these days, and plan to. Nice, compact little light weight gun. The .357 should prove a neat companion around here, and the brass should last a lot longer than the .32/20 or .25/20's. That's the plan, anyway.

[Dale53]

Blackwater:
>>>the brass should last a lot longer than the .32/20 or .25/20's. <<<

Brass life with .25/20 is actually quite long in my Marlin. Considerably more than 20 times laoded relatively hot. I seldom EVER loose a case.

R. Dale McGee

[JSH]

Bob, what is your OAL on the 180? I bought this one for the son to fool with. The thing sure doesn't want to cycle rounds as smoothly as an of my 336's. I attribute that to the straight non tapered case. I am FL sizing and it still doesn't like to feed well. The elevator seems like it dtermines what will feed and what won't. If it is just a bit too long it will hang up in the magazine tube. At times you can tip the barrel up and it will fall back and let you chamber the round. Other times you have to pop the round up over the back of the elevator and shake it around and it will fall into the chamber. Maybe my elevator is stuck between floors, lol. Sure glad no indians around the wagon when this happens..................
At the moment I have some 38's loaded up, but really wasn't what I had planned for this.
Thanks
Jeff

[bobthenailer]

hi first i trim all 357 cases to 1.275 col before sizing and the col with the lee 180 rf gc is 1.585 and it feeds well in my rifle but not as slick as a round nose 158 gr bullet, also after loading rounds ck them in the chamber some may be sticky if casings were used in anouther gun previously ! i use a old steel sizing die to correct this problem as the steel die is not flaired as much for easy entrance for the semiprogressive presses we have today . all 357 brass trimmed /fed spp / fed spm with 820 & lilgun, with 180 rf, 4.5 tightgroup no gas ck @1027 fps , 12.0 820 slow @1437 fps , 15.5 littlegun @1708 fps all are very accurate! i tested all loads at 50 yards several times and are constiantly accurate all a inch or better good luck bob

[nighthunter]

My experience with the 357 Mag is only in a handgun. The Lyman 358429 is my bullet of choice with 13.5 gr 2400. I repeat this is in a handgun(several) and it is what I always come back to. In a rifle it might be different. Let me know what the difference is.
Nighthunter

[africa]

My son and myself have Rossi .357 mag. carbines. Not too hard to find their accuracy loads. These little carbines are a dream to tote while at the woods, and while fishing as an ensurance against evil intentioned beasts like stray dogs and two-legged ones, which are much more dangerous. Their killing potential is high, entirely out of proportion when mated against paper ballistics.
Our carbines like best 158/160 gr. truncated cone bullets. They feed nicely, and with open(My son) and Peep sights (me), five shot groups at 100 yds are consistently under 4 inches, most of the time around 2.5. Both like best H110 powder.

[wills]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_50/ai_n6275756

[bobthenailer]

i forgot to mention the col is critical in the marlin i think 1.610 is max for cycling the action, if the bullet you want to use is a little to long{col} trim cases back a little to get correct col and keep those cases seperate as several of my 357 moulds cast bullets that are to long for correct col, but i usually only use the 180 gr bullet

[boogerred]

like nighthunter i use the 358429 with 2400(13.7grs) in my ruger NMBH.ive knocked off many jackrabbits and a coupla coyotes at 60-80 yds. of course,the closer i get to 50 the more i find i need a reddot to point the way for longer shots.i too am looking for a 357 lever.

[slughammer]

If you find one that shoots good, hang onto it. My microgroove will do consistent 2" at 50 for 10 shots, that seems to be about its limit.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for all the insights. I read Taffin's article, and can heartily identify with his comment, "To me, the 10-shot 1894C .357 Magnum is the handiest and most desirable of all centerfire rifles of any caliber or action type. There is very little needing to be done with a rifle that I cannot accomplish with this little Marlin. It is not the perfect choice and perhaps not even a good choice for hunting big game. However. I have no doubt I could keep my family fed, and fed well with nothing else but a .22 and a .357 Magnum Marlin."

I'd never really thought that much of the .357 in rifles, though I did have an old Navy Arms baby rolling block that I rebarreled to .357 once way back. It was my son's first "deer rifle." That gun had a 26 5/8" tapered round semi-heavy barrel (relative to that little gun, at least) and once put 4 for 4 (last ammo I had that day) into 5/8" at 100. A buddy recently got one of Marlin's 1894's, and has been doing some really neat things with it. He also has the .44, and the .44 is a better "deer gun," no doubt, but the .357 has served him well several times now. He's used mostly the 140 gr. Horn. XTP HP's with max. loads of 296. Velocity is a bit over 2,000 fps., and he's gotten complete penetration on side shots twice, and on an angling deer of @ 140 lbs., the bullet was under the hide after breaking the offside shoulder. Not too shabby for a "light bullet." He restricts it to 150 yds. and under.

Thanks also for the 1.610" figure. That makes me think if I set nose length at .330", and don't try to get TOO large a meplat to feed, I'll be OK. My biggest desire is to make it a one load gun, or really a two load gun - one for casual shooting, which I need to do a lot more of, and one "regular" load. The 170 grainer - about the same wt. as the old Keith bullet - just seemed to offer about the best balance of velocity and trajectory along with surety of full penetration with a good load.

99% of my shooting will be friendly contests with buddies, and often at what most would consider "rediculous" ranges. I wouldn't shoot at a deer at these ranges, but they're very edifying and challenging, and just make shooting sessions a lot more fun and enlightening, as well as humbling some days. The 170 just seemed to be a middle ground, plus I've found that velocity DOES make a difference on our little southern whitetails. Even at max. velocities, I'd still be treading on the bottom end of the velocity level that will give at least SOME "hydrostatic shock," but it's enough to make some difference. A decent sized flat meplat, along with some substantial velocity (maybe 1700-1750 fps?) ought to balance things out, and give me enough of each quality to be satisfying results for what I want it for.

Anyone have a guess at what size meplat ought to feed with a .330" nose? I'm thinking the 67% meplat looks pretty good, but .... anyone got anything to compare to?

BTW, Millet also makes a big, wide blade front sight for ramps that I THINK I'll be able to SEE, which is what has me hot to trot on this gun. Have too many projects in the works to do much more, but that little Marlin is on my must have list now. I think I'm gonna' really like it. My Moisen and Enfield will be phased out ASAP as my "truck gun." May have to lend one to my son for his truck gun. He really needs one now, but I suspect when he gets to play with the Marlin, he'll likely be getting one of those himself, and givin' ol' dad back the Moisen.

[imashooter2]

1.610 is the absolute longest cartridge that will feed in an unmodified 1894C. You will be much happier with your rifle's function if you keep OAL to 1.590 or less.

[Nrut]

Blackwater I have one of LBT's 180WFN nose molds and those bullets feed fine in my 1894C...I have'nt shot them in the Marlin yet as it is a fairly new rifle for me....Meplat is around .270=75% and nose is around .340 with a top driving band of .50...this is a used rifle so I have'nt checked to see it has been altered in any way as far as feeding goes....I also have a group buy mold with a design very simular to the LBT but have'nt got around to casting for it yet....can't wait for spring!!!!

[Junior1942]

You might be interested in my trials and tribulations with the 180 gr group buy bullet in my Rossi.

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/rossi-s3.htm

[felix]

Junior, I really liked your story using the group buy 180's. Have you compared the use of your lot of 820 with the Lilgun with that boolit, and the other boolits on hand? ... felix

[Junior1942]

Felix, in this http://www.castbullet.com/reload/wc820.htm article I tried 820 with two different 158 gr cast in 357, but I haven't tried 820 and the group buy 180 gr cast. WC820 would work just fine with the 180 gr cast, I suspect, but it wouldn't give the safe velocity possible with Lil Gun.

[six_gun]

Junior,

I just read your article and thought I would add my experience trying almost the same thing.

I shoot Cowboy Rifle Silhouette. I was doing just fine with my Model 94 30-30 until I mentioned that I would like to try out my 357 Rossi on this game. I was met with comments about how the 357 would not knock the rams down and don't even try.

Well, I couldn't help but show'em up then. I had a RCBS-180-357-sil mold on hand and cast up a few, using my secret casting formula, consisting of lead from the trough of an indoor range and some wheel weights. I add sodder if I need some tin, to fill out the mold. Lubbed and checked they weigh right at 195 gr.

The bullets were too long to cycle, so I crimped them in the middle of the forward driving band. For powder, I worked up to 16 grains of Lil'Gun which is a compressed load. Volicity was 1832fps on average. Standard divation was down around 2.

I went out to the range and sighted in at 200 yards. Groups were under four inches from a rest. I painted a 3X5 card with florcent paint and laid it beside the backstop, on the berm. I wanted to see where I was hitting offhand, in the dirt and I figured I would be able to see pretty good when the dirt shot up. I shot 5 times, off hand at the card. The first four shots got no dirt flying up and I figured I was hitting the card. On the fifth shot the card flew up into the air and landed where I couldn't see it. I walked out and looked at the card and there were 3 holes touching, at the top edge of the card. One hole was 2 inches below the three and the fifth shot did not hit the card, but must have been close since it flew up in the air. Remember, this was with a reciedver sight on a Rossi Model 92.

I went to the first match with this load and the wind was steady at 20 mph 90 degrees to the course, gusts were 40 mph. I shot a 32 out of forty, knocking down 8 rams. That won the match and when I was getting my award and prize money, the Match Director suggested that I take the prize money and buy a gun more suitable for Cowboy Rifle Silhouette.

I won the second match with a 32 also. I started on rams and got 9 out of 10. There were so many people shooting this match that I didn't get to the turkeys until after the sun went down and I couldn't see them. I did get six though.

I changed the lube from RCBS Rifle to Lee Liquod alox and volicity went up to 1860fps with accuracy remaining the same.

This sure is fun!

Sixgun

[StarMetal]

six-gun

Max load in Hodgdon's manual for a 180 jacketed is 16 grs of Lilgun and that's not a bullet seated deeper to work out of a 92 leveraction so that means it's not a compressed load, which means if a bullet is too long and seated deeper then normal raises the pressure alot.

Can we see a picture of the card you were shooting at?

I'd have to say the story sounds a tad far fetched partner. You wouldn't be :kidding: would you?

Joe

[six_gun]

The load shows no pressure signs in my gun. It may in others so work up to it like I did. Primers are not createred or flat. They are nice and rounded.

As far as a pic of the card. Believe it or not, I don't care. I'm not concerned about what others think I can do. I'm more concerned with what I know I can do. I shot that card last spring and don't have a clue as to where it is. But if it really bothers you, I may go out and do it again. Course these things can be rigged also, so you are at my mercy. Come shoot with me, then you will know if I can do it or if I can't.

Sixgun

[wmitty]

Sounds like really good shooting to me! I'm not familiar with Lil' gun; how does the burning rate compare with WW 296? I'm using the 180 RCBS in my Marlin; do you have any problems getting rounds to feed from magazine to chamber?