Accidents and progressive loaders

[softpoint]

I saw another thread on the forum discussing revolver strength, And I thought I'd start a new thread on the subject of strength, I v'e read you could take a model 83 Freedom arms and seat a 300 gr bullet atop a compressed load of Bullseye, and it it would freeze up, primer would blow, etc. The gun itself wouldn't disintegrate.Now, I have 2 Freedom arms revolvers, one in .44 magnum, and a .454 You can bet your last dollar I'll never know if that statement is true or not.!!!I was looking thrugh the spotting scope once, right alongside a buddy shooting a blackhawk in .45 colt, His load was 9gr. Universal. Suddenly there was a louder noise than usual. Spotting scope scooted across the bench and out into the yard. On closer inspection, top three chambers were GONE. Backstrap humped up like camel. Piece of the debris had taken one of the legs completely off the scope tripod. Inches fom my head!. Neither of us got a scratch on us. Weighed all remaining ammo to try to determine cause, There were no squib loads that would indicate a bridged powder measure that had dropped a double. Cause was finally determined to be going to bathroom and coming back to Dillon550B, and working the handle one more time before indexing the shellplate. 18 gr. universal will ruin 45 colt blackhawk. I suspect there are quite a few accidents attributed to progressive loaders,. And I'll bet that SOME of the Glock kabooms are traceable to that as well, seeing that a lot of handgun ammo is loaded on these press's
although there are other causes.
I regularly use 2 550 dillons, and 2 old RCBS 4x4 loaders set up with dillon powder measures. I've never had an issue.
Some of the safety measures I take are using a powder that will at least take up over half the case capacity.;I stand up at my dillons so I can see into the operation. I use a desk lamp so I can see into each case as it comes around. And if I do use Bullseye, or something that occupies very little space in the case I try to remain even more alert.
Here are some pics of the frame of that gun We stripped all the useable parts off it, Not a good way to get spare parts! Surprisingly, the barrel was still good, but the threaded portion of the frame was split. Unscrewed the barrel with 2 fingers!

[technetium-99m]

I've actually yet to know of a double charge with an auto indexing press like the 650 (although with humans operating the machines I'm sure they happen too). You also get an additional die slot that you can use to run a check die. The 4 station manually indexing presses freak me out. Just sayin is all.

[NSP64]

AWSOME.Glad everyones OK. Ck my avitar,It's an 8" artillary piece that had a 200# Projo go off just short of the muzzlebrake. I used to load on a 4X4 and kept forgetting things like primers, powder (you know, the unimportant things> Kept getting interupted by spouse/kids) I don't volume shoot so I load on a single stage and a turret know.:drinks:

[shooterg]

Like said "attributed to progressive loaders". As always dang near every incident like this was human error. My Dillons are likely much more dependable than me !

But I would like to see that load tested in a FA !

[Trey45]

As said above, thankfully you're both ok! That's a sobering experience for sure. I have a Blackhawk 45 Colt convertible, my favorite single action, I load exclusively for it on a Dillon 550. I'd hate to see mine kaboom, this is a good example of why when loading, all distractions should be removed from the room! Safety is a must. No TV, no kids, no pets, no phone calls. The same could be said for casting lead into boolits! I'm guilty of being on the computer while sitting behind my Dillon, well, no more.

[NSP64]

Did you find all the pieces and rounds? I wonder if the other 2 rounds chain reacted or if just 1 did that?

[44man]

I assure you all that a Freedom is no stronger then a Ruger or BFR. All are comparable in strength.
I believe the BFR is even stronger then both but you would need to compare calibers all are chambered in.
That load would ruin any revolver.
My friend forgot the powder in one shell and stuck a boolit in the bore of his Ruger .41. He shot a full power load behind it and the cylinder expanded up, bent the top strap up, destroyed the red dot and bent the pin down. The cylinder DID NOT CRACK but the pressure had to be something else.
If you blow the top of a cylinder off, be assured no revolver on earth will take that without breaking or bending.
It seems most accidents are the result of either a progressive press or loading one shell at a time instead of using a loading block and inspecting every charge. Humans make mistakes every single day with something, nothing different when a machine built for speed is used and a machine is not running it.
The most dangerous thing on earth is human error.
I even use my turret presses as single stage except to size and expand. No danger there.

[HeavyMetal]

Usually these are a chain reaction. I have never seen a revolver blow up that wasn't missing the top three chambers and the cartridges within! Since 1974 I've seen about a dozen on display across socal.

Haven't seen many in the last 8 or 9 yrs and I think thats because we are all a bit more aware than we were 20 yrs ago. The displays have served a purpose!

As for problems on a progressive, be it manual or auto indexing, Breaks need to be schueduled at the end of each primer tube! Once you run out of primers you clear the machine and take a break!

That means soda, bathroom, phone call, dinner whatever! When you return to the machine now you don't have to guess where you left off you simply start a new run!

Safe and simple! Works for me!

Also really glad no one was hurt! Big plus is you were able to determine how this happened, and thanks for not blaming the powder company, and a big pat on the back for ante'ing up with the issue, many might not have.

I have long suspected the 38 special blow up of the 60' and 70's were from faulty machine operation and not some incredible " special effect".


I suspect you will change operating procedures for future use of the Dillon and perhaps we should consider a "sticky" made up for safe suggested procederal use of progressive press.

This may help us all in the future as well as those considering upgrading a press system.

[softpoint]

Actually, I'd probably think FA revolvers are somewhat stouter, Even though thier physical size is about the same as a Ruger, The very early Freedom factory loads were HOT. I'd heard some of those were in the 65000 psi range! Right away, when others started chambering revolvers those loads were "de tuned" Also, Freedom used bullets specifically designed to withstand that sort of pressure in a revolver. Different things seem to happen to a bullet with a revolving cylinder with a forcing cone ahead of it. The bullet tries to massively "bump up" when it "jumps the gap".
And, in defence of the Freedom, they do use a grade of steel that no one else uses, and, of course, 5 shot cylinders.
The auto index presses are most likely much safer than the manual ones, but , like I said, I've never had an accident with one. Those old RCBS 4x4 do have a learning curve, Ican tell you that, but if you put a dillon measure and expander in the third station they work pretty good.(Just don't forget the primer!!). The drawback, other than they usually cost more to the auto index is that when something does go wrong,and you have to abort loading a round, they are a little harder to get back ontrack IMHO:Fire:

[softpoint]

By the way, we never found the missing half of that cylinder, and that cylinder pin WILL NOT come out. Even tried a punch from the rear after we stripped it . It's like it was welded!:Fire:

[shooting on a shoestring]

Dad taught me once the powder is in the shell, immediately seat a boolit. No ifs ans nor buts. If for some odd reason a bullet can't be seated immediately, pour out the powder. I don't turn loose of the shell until its in the press with a boolit on top. So far (about 30 years now for me, about 50 years for him) no double charges.

At times I've thought of trying a progressive, but end up sticking with my single stage. Like someone said on this board, its a hobby not a mass production job. I enjoy my reloading bench time and still end up loading faster than I shoot.

Thanks for the thread Softpoint. May it serve to inform and save another KB.

[mike in co]

I suspect there are quite a few accidents attributed to progressive loaders,. !

me thinks you should think about your statement and reword it.

presses DO NOT CAUSE loading errors, OPPERATORS cause loading errors.

poor judgement in selecting a powder charge that will allow a double charge is an OPERATOR error, not the error of a progressive press.

failure to cylce the rounds in the shell plate prior to leaving the press is an OPERATOR error, not a progressive press error.

i too operate two dillon 550's plus multiple other presses. i will never have a double charge on my dillons, because i never select a charge that will allow the case to hold a double. i may have a double on some cast rifle loads, but doubtful as even though most are less than 50% charges, the are done one at a time, typically on lee hand loaders, never on a dillon used as a progressive.


mike in co

[Lloyd Smale]

I too believe a FA gun is going to take more pressure to cause a catastrofic failure then a ruger would. the bfrs arent made with the same steel as the FA guns but there probably a bit stouter so id say they probably are just as strong. I will add one thing to this. Anyone that blows up a gun has no bussiness blameing a press. Its like blaming a gun for someone being killed. Its the idiot running the thing thats to blame. If you cant keep your mind into your loading you shouldnt be loading period!

[softpoint]

And, thing is ,this fella was NOT a beginner. He had reloaded for 25+ years. He has probably forgotten as much about guns and reloading as a lot of folks will ever know, as the saying goes. He also forgot to index. One time.
So if a person isn't POSITIVE of his own ability, he should either stick to single stage, or turret press. Use what you are confident with and no more. Having said that, I couldn't have shot as much as I did, and still do if it were not for progressive loaders, and casting my own bullets.
In the end , a press only does what YOU make it do. Sort of like running your car off the road. Whose fault is that? Not Ford or Chevy!

[Heavy lead]

I load most of my handgun ammunition on a Lee Turret. I like some here never use a powder in a particuliar cartridge that will allow a double charge, I make sure it is bulky enough so the boolit or bullet will simply not seat. In the Turret I also as some say use a bright clamp on light and visually verify each powder charge period on every case. I do this as well on my only Progressive a LNL, with the station after the powder drop left empty, when the 45 acp case comes up, the light shines down in the hole and I visually check the charge.
Personally in my opinion I can't see the point in having a Progressive that doesn't auto index, but that's me. But again, that is still an operator error issue. I just cannot see seating a projectile in a case without verifying the powder charge. This includes single stage loading with rifle cartridges I prefer too. They all get verified in the blocks, then again when I seat the bullet, under a bright light.

[softpoint]

Mike inColorado,
I suppose I should have said accidents that could be traced back to the use/misuse of progressive loaders. No, absolutley not the machine's fault, But some accidents ARE much easier on progressive machines, especially for the beginning reloader. I've heard of people charging cases on a loading block with a powder measure and doubling. Blows the gun up just as handily as anything else!:Fire:

[mike in co]

but i noticed, you did not change the text of the original statement.......maybe you should go clarifiy the statement....


mike in co

[Firebird]

Look at a cylinder from the end. The top center chamber is where the pressure puts on the strain, which pulls the webs between the top three chambers apart and results in three of the chambers getting pushed off the cylinder. FA's are MUCH stronger than most other guns because being a 5-shot cylinder the webs between chambers are often 2-3 times as thick as standard 6-shot cylinders. Then add in the bolt cut doesn't weaken the outside wall of a chamber the way it does with a 6-shot and you end up with a much stronger gun. Ruger also went with a special steel for the 454 Redhawks due to the high pressure level specified for that round - SAAMI max for the 454 is 65,000 so if you chamber a gun in 454 it has to be able to withstand 65,000 psi for thousands of shots before things stretch enough for the headspace to go bad, and never come apart at that pressure level.

[Echo]

I believe the NRA did some research on this subject many years ago. They determined it took a triple charge of BE (probably 2.7 grs) to blow up a 38 Special pistol, IIRC. So how does one go about putting three charges into one case?

The old Star reloaders didn't have the feature that modern Dillons have, that of having the case cause the powder drop. In the old Stars. the reloader would often use an empty case to catch the powder that was dropped before the first case rotated around to the powder-drop position, and that would be two powder charges. If he then simply put the double-charged case into the progression, without emptying the previous charges... well...

And then the Dillons started showing up, and kabooms reduced in frequency.

[Southern Son]

I use a 550B for my 38Spl loading. A couple of years ago I put a case feeder on it. You cannot double charge a case with the case feeder on the press while ever there are cases in the tube to be fed onto the plate. If you fail to index, the case feeder will try to feed a new case onto the plate, however, since you did not index, then the already sized/primed case is still there and the unsized case will be pushed up along side it. When they try to enter the sizer die together, you will probably notice something feels a little bit "wrong".

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have owned a 550B Dillion since 1988 and have a simple solution... I look into the just charged case before /as I am advancing the shell plate. I do not load much if any Real fast paowders like Bullseye.. #2.. So even loads of Unique or #5 would show up IF double charged.
When ever opperating any machine ATTENTION is necessary.
Mike in Peru

[BD]

The primary advantage of the old Pro-Jector direct rod powder drop is that you cannot double charge a case without purposely working against the advance paws to turn the plate backwards. Will it drop powder when no case is present? Sure will. But to my mind that's the same lack of attention that could lead to a double charge on a dillon. You can spill powder, or run out of powder and load squibs, but you really have to work at it to load a double charge.

That feature combined with the Hornady primer setup which makes it very unlikely that you could set off the whole tube, makes that old press one of the safest progressives out there IMO.

BD

[softpoint]

. So how does one go about putting three charges into one case?

I'm thinking that with a light load, you could get awaywith a double without blowing up, if you were using a stout revolver. Depending on the powder,and it's tendency to spike. But if you were already loading the .38 at +p levels, could have a problem

[fecmech]

"believe the NRA did some research on this subject many years ago. They determined it took a triple charge of BE (probably 2.7 grs) to blow up a 38 Special pistol, IIRC. So how does one go about putting three charges into one case?"






The test the NRA did pretty much concluded that double charges of 2.7 BE would not blow up medium frame revo's as the pressure was about 35K. Their conclusion was more likely a double charge compunded with deep seating that would run pressures up to 70K. I have a copy of the article at home but I'm on the road now.
BTW I load on 2 CH Auto Champs and I would have to really sabotage the machine to double charge a shell.

[jmorris]

I regularly use 2 550 dillons, and 2 old RCBS 4x4 loaders set up with dillon powder measures. I've never had an issue.

You never will if you continue to pay attention when reloading. Auto indexing is nice and a powder check die is a bonus too. The best cure is a Dillon 1050, it has a device on it that prevents anything other than a complete stroke. You can have a squib if you have an empty powder measure but no chance of a double.

[softpoint]

Not knocking the Dillon, I have 2 of them (550's), but they appear to be one of the easier one's to double charge with . The old RCBS 4x4 as I have set up would be equally as easy. I understand Dillon offers a powder checker with thier machines now IMHO, they should include it in the package with the 550 and offer it as a free upgrade for thier machines. Only a matter of time before someone blames thier own mistake on Dillon and tries to play the litigation lottery with them. I'd hate that, as Dillon makes a good machine, and I've had good service from them in the past. :grin:

[softpoint]

[QUOTE=jmorris;556090] The best cure is a Dillon 1050QUOTE]

As many calibers as I load for, though there would be be no cure for my wallet if I went the 1050 route!. I'll just continue being cautios and using my 550's!! I have always kind of wanted a 1050, but couldn't quite get over the sticker shock. I don't even know anyone who has one, I do'nt know much about them.

[markinalpine]

I don't have a progressive press. I do the bulk of my reloading with a Lee Classic Turret press, but after reading this thread, I went and found a clamp-on lamp and have mounted it to shine on the press so I can see into the case even better. Something I had been meaning to do all along but had been letting inertia have its way.
Thanks,
Mark :coffee:

:brokenima

BTW, I really love these animated smilies [smilie=2:

[runfiverun]

it's funny the different solutions to a "problem".
i go by the seated boolit. if it's seated it gets turned.
the nice thing about the 550 is how easy it is to remove and replace a shell from the stations.

[Big Boomer]

Softpoint: The pic of that .45 Colt Blackhawk really got my attention. Glad no one was injured when it let go. The difference with your experience and mine was that mine was no accident - I overloaded my .45 Blackhawk deliberately. Somehow I got the notion that my Ruger product was indestructible. They are very tough but not indestructible. I still have mine and shoot it but only after having it rebuilt. I cracked the cylinder under the bolt cuts on 2 or 3 chambers (at least) and split the barrel on the bottom side at the forcing cone due to hard cast boolits slamming into it. Fixing it required a new barrel and a .44 Mag cylinder reamed out to tight .45 Colt dimensions (by Hamilton Bowen). Made a great shooter out of it and gave it new life. I now take it (somewhat) easy on my revolvers ... easier than I used to in the past. 'Tuck

[Hardcast416taylor]

After having several primers inserted upside down at the priming station on my Hornady Pro-Jector some years ago, it got me thinking. I took the auto priming assembly off the press and the auto powder dispenser unit. I hand prime all cases now and manually operate the Hornady powder drop.
I have since then not had a flipped primer in a case nor a missing or doubled powder charge, almost happened using the auto drop. I still load and shoot handgun rounds in the thousands, but I have a better handle on safety while loading without the progressive features on the press.:Fire: Robert...

[BD]

There are definately a few things that need to be done to the old Pro-Jectors to make them reliable. Theres a long thread on this topic with pictures in the "Reloading Equipment" forum.

I also ditched the auto powder drop rig. It was great fun to watch, Rube Goldberg had a hand in that design for sure. I like the simple rod arangement much better.

BD

[RugerSP101]

man.
Threads like this make me glad Im only charging about 40% of what I could actually go in our Ruger. We're loading light 38's (4 grains of Unique) but shooting in our Ruger SP101 357 which I guess can take a pretty good charge anyway.
Id almost give up shooting, I think, if I had a gun blow like that.
Course, I am a twitchy person.

[TAWILDCATT]

I have a progressive an RCBS green machine,am changing the powder measure to a Lee disk with riser.also have Lee 1000.
my loads are target loads so doubles are no problem.the rifle calibers are done on Lee turret in batches.and primed with lee auto primer.they also are litter loads.
what gets me is the insistence to get a dillon progressive for NEW reloaders.thats were the problem starts.to much going on at once.a Lee turret with the index removed would be much better.and those LNL are waste.if you want to chsnge dies quick get a turret.like Lee and keep the dies set.yes I like Lee,I also like my Bonanza,and tru line jrs.I would like to have an other green machine in 45 acp.
as to the heavy pistols I do have a black hawk in 45 colt use 9 gr unique.
my 45 acp is 3.6 of 700X and my 38 is 2.8 of 700X.
I have a security ind 357 mag that split the barrel and took out the left side of frame at barrel.never heard how it happened.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[shoestring]

been using a 550 for years, if i need a pee break or want to smoke, or answer the phone, i ALWAYS stop adding cases and complete the rounds in the shell plate. i NEVER walk away from my press with any shells in it. i formed this habit early in my reloading, and now i don't even have to think about it. when you sit back down you just start from step one. as far as powder goes, i will not use a powder that does not nearly fill the case once the bullet is seated, one reason is it will prevent doubles and the second is a full case is way more consistant than a half full case due to the amount of surface area exposed to the primer flash. accuracy is the reason i started reloading in the first place, i have changed to different powders based on the amount of smoke (indoor shooting). i know this sounds like reloading 101 and it is. experienced reloaders know this but there are alot of newbies out there that should learn good bench habits early to prevent accidents. .02

[mike in co]

what gets me is the insistence to get a dillon progressive for NEW reloaders.thats were the problem starts.to much going on at once.a Lee turret with the index removed would be much better.and those LNL are waste.if you want to chsnge dies quick get a turret.like Lee and keep the dies set.yes I like Lee,I also like my Bonanza,and tru line jrs.I would like to have an other green machine in 45 acp.smilie=1:

i'm one of those guys.

a dillon 550 can be used as a single stage press....or four single stage presses. its real simple...get used to each step, and that start adding steps together.
when most of use were growing up and leaning mostly there were only single stage press, its how most learned....times change, loading is not black magic( 'cept bp), and most semi intellegent people can handle a dillon quickly.

it aint rocket science.....and i was one( rocket launcher)
i have been loading since 1970(LEE LOADER), bought my first press in the 80's, bought my first SINGLE STAGE PRESS in 2006/7.
mike in co

[Lloyd Smale]

thousands of them in service and it seems to me the only time i here them called unsafe is by hornady users and guys that cant afford to step up to a progressive press or dont need one. I dont think ive ever heard of a guy selling his 550 because he felt it was unsafe.

[softpoint]

This has been interesting! Now, a lot of old timers who NEVER make mistakes will think this thread is silly, but for everyone, and especially the newbies, Yes, get yourself the progressive of your choice, Just be careful, read all the precautions that are posted here and be safe, and have fun!:drinks::Fire: