Can I reload unsized cases?

[superior]

I've been using a Lee collet neck sizer on my 303Brit brass and it appears that I'm going to need an oversize mandrel to make the case mouths a little larger. is it possible to load without neck sizing at all? Occasionally my boolits come out straight but alot of them cock to one side slightly..Lee say's there's a 9 month wait for a custom mandrel.

[docone31]

I tried it on my .303 British.
Nope.
Contact Buckshot. He is good.

[superior]

What happened docone31? Not enough neck tension?

[captaint]

I would see if I could pick up (maybe used) another sizing die. Try Gunbroker or sumpin like that. Bullet not concentric with case causes all kinds of accuracy issues. That ammo gotta be straight!

[docone31]

It just did not cut it. I was doing paper patching, the dies would tear into the patch, the casting would get shoved into the case. I tried takeing out the bullet set in the die.
I had to send them back. Six months ago, it was a two week turn around.
You can, bell the case with a drill bit, and use the FCD die if the bell is not too large. Do not crimp with the FCD, just compress the neck.

[DLCTEX]

I flare the odd case using a cartridge case of the size that fits the case mouth. I flared some 38 S&W using a 223 case (tap lightly with a plastic hammer), and a 45-70 case was flared using a 7mm Mag. case. It sounds as if you may need a larger mandrel, though, to increase dia. of case neck if it's too tight after flaring.

[mtgrs737]

If you are just needing to flare the case mouth to start a boolit without shaving lead get a lee universal flaring die, they are about $10. If your complete case neck is too small I would have buckshot make you a new one, they are fairly simple to make. You may be able to get a 8mm expander plug in a standard size die and sand it down to accomplish the neck expanding you are looking for.

[FAsmus]

Docone31;

Docone says; It just did not cut it. I was doing paper patching, the dies would tear into the patch, the casting would get shoved into the case. I tried takeing out the bullet set in the die ...

Forrest says: I have some expierience with the Lee neck sizer collets and with paper-patched bullets (Not necessarily at the same time)

The deal with the Lee neck sizer collet is that it is adjstable; you can control how much sizing goes on by adjusting the die in or out of the press. For my 303 British and 7.65x53 Argentine I measure the inside diameter of the case neck with a small-hole gage and micrometer. Correct for me is 0.312 to 0.313 for bullets sized 0.314 or about 0.002 interferance fit - good for secure holding of the bullet but not to deform it at all.

To bell case mouths you don't need anything complex or fancy! Just go down to the local hardware store, buy a tapered punch of medium size (for the taper to fit inside a 30 caliber hole) and use it, by hand pressure alone to expand the case mouths right before the powder charging phase of production. With a little practice you can bell the mouths of cases exactly the right amount every time to accept your paper patched bullets and seat them with no damage what-so-ever!

An advantage for seating PP is also to lightly rub the patched bullet with your bullet lube of choice before loading ..

Don't try to compress the necks with bullets in them! The brass will spring back far more than the lead bullet will, leaving you with a loose fit no-matter-what!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[docone31]

Forrest, I agree except, my patched loads were at .314, and the die maxed out at .312. It did not matter how I adjusted the die. The die walls were just too tight.
The Lee collet die is specd for .311-.312. I found, with jacketeds at .312, it was great. Lead at .313, or paper at .3135, maybe. At .314, does not cut it. The .3135, most came out ok. There was some tearing, some pushed into the case. At .314, which I now use, they all were pushed into the case. I had to send it out to get adjusted.
Now, it is second nature with that die. I have two. One designated for paper, one for conventional loading.
I really like the die set. I get amazing loading with neck sizing only. I am over 10 on most of the cases I have loaded so far.

[303Guy]

... is it possible to load without neck sizing at all? Actually, yes it can be done, but.... it can be a pain in the butt! Talking 303 Brit, my bullets are so large that I have to use a custom sizer and expander (that I made to suite). But I have also seated bullets using a paper cup arrangement. These bullets do not get pushed into the case too easily as they seat up against the 'dough-nut' which I use as a stop. The paper has to be soaked in molten 'waxy-lube' stuff to seal the case and keep the bullet in place (after seating). I have also seated bullets without the paper cup but they do wobble a little which allows them to align themselves. I have also seated jacketed bullets in unsized necks with paper cups and 'waxy-lube'. They work but it is easier to just size the necks!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-168F_edited.jpg

I load this way for my hornet (that's a hornet cartridge in the pic) and it works real well! It allows for a higher powder charge of Lil'Gun without excess pressure. (Other powders produce the same pressure with or without the paper cup method). That's a 55gr bullet and it does near 2700fps - from a hornet! Cases last forever!

[Bret4207]

Depends on the particular gun. I have a couple rifles I can literally just punch out the old primer, push in a fresh one, add powder and boolit and shoot. Mind you these aren't SMLE, but a 45/70 and an 8 x57 IIRC. Just luck of the draw. Come to think on it I can do that with one of my 32-20 rifles too. It's just more "normal" to use the dies for me. Oh yeah, my 8x56R I can do that with too. But a proper die makes things easier and more consistent.

[pdawg_shooter]

I load all my bottle neck cases unsized when I paper patch. Gives me the best accuracy.

[superior]

Well it sounds like on rare occasions, loading without sizing is possible as in Bret4207's case with 3 of his rifles. I am sure gonna give it a try with my 303. What have I got to lose? I have no problems with boolit shaving and the Lee technician say's the gas check is automatically flaring the case mouth. He recommended a .313 mandrel for boolits sized at .314.

[jonk]

I've done it but it is easiest with blackpowder; just fill to seating depth, press the bullet in, carefully chamber so as not to spill anything so the bullet just contacts the rifling and presses against the powder column, you're good to go. That's all I do with my trapdoor if using black.

[dbldblu]

"is it possible to load without neck sizing at all?" Yes, I have done this. I have loaded unsized cases where the boolit would fall into the case on its own. I hold it in place with a small pinch of tissue and the use a Lee factory crimp die. The die is adjusted just enough so the case mouth will just catch the driving band and keep boolit from falling in. The boolit will spin freely but will not fall in. The tissue is of no consequence when the big fire goes off.

[rayg]

I do the same dbldblu. Just use fired unsized cases with 303, (.314 dia) and 30-06, (.312). Some are loser then others but I just use the crimp die to hold the bullet from pulling out or being pushed in. Ray

[FAsmus]

Docone;

Docone says: Forrest, I agree except, my patched loads were at .314, and the die maxed out at .312. It did not matter how I adjusted the die. The die walls were just too tight.

The Lee collet die is specd for .311-.312. I found, with jacketeds at .312, it was great. Lead at .313, or paper at .3135, maybe. At .314, does not cut it. The .3135, most came out ok. There was some tearing, some pushed into the case. At .314, which I now use, they all were pushed into the case. I had to send it out to get adjusted.

Forrest replies: Very interesting!

You've gotten me to measure my 303 die and some fired cases just to see what might be going on.

My Lee 303 die's collet ID is 0.350 when fully open, or, about 0.008 larger than the OD of a fired case neck (0.342). The ID of the fired case neck is right around 0.316 such that the collet only has to compress the neck some 0.002 or 0.003 (plus some spring-back) in order to hold my bullets securely.

Now, it seems to me that if the fired case enters your die normally, with the ID of the neck running around 0.316 and the OD at 0.342 or more (as is predictable in SMLEs) that the collet, would be within its area of ajustment. That is, small or large you'd be able to size the diameter you wanted. Or, possibly is the ID of your fired case 0.3135 ALREADY? (which seems very unlikely)

Now, according to your post the ID of your collet, when fully open, must be smaller than mine by some measureable amount such that it is impossible to back off the die and arrive at a decreased amount of sizing.

If you have time measure your tool and say what the dimentions are.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[303Guy]

I hold it in place with a small pinch of tissue and the use a Lee factory crimp die.I use more than just a pinch. Not with my current cast bullets though - they'e too large. With the 'tissue' method - which is actually paper towel - I dip the seated bullet into molten waxy-lube to soak up into the paper which then holds the bullet.

Another trick I have tried is sizing the neck, then expanding it with a mandrel just enough to form a 'dough-nut' ring which then acts as a bullet stop. Sizing is such that the bullet can just be pushed in by hand. I then do the dipping into molten waxy-lube trick. I have not done accuracy tests with this one. I was just looking for a way to seat bullets. (Then the bullets got too big! I still seat to the dough-nut and still dip into waxy-lube. This one does seem to shoot good).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg

I know, I know - it's only three shots and it was only at 50yds but it's a nice picture and it makes me want to go shoot some more![smilie=1:

[jhrosier]

I have not tried this yet, but I thought about wrapping a piece of .002 shim stock around the Lee collet die mandrel and securing it with a tiny drop of crazy glue.
Seems like it should work.

Jack

[FAsmus]

Jhrosier;


Jhrosier says: I have not tried this yet, but I thought about wrapping a piece of .002 shim stock around the Lee collet die mandrel and securing it with a tiny drop of crazy glue. Seems like it should work.

Forrest mentions: The Lee collet die has no expander mandrel! All this thing has is a collet to squeeze down the neck of the fired case and a de-capping punch.

The idea of the tool is to enable us reloaders to neck size a case a specified amount and AVOID the expanding-back procedure entirely.

Good morning,
Forrest

[jhrosier]

Jhrosier;


Jhrosier says: I have not tried this yet, but I thought about wrapping a piece of .002 shim stock around the Lee collet die mandrel and securing it with a tiny drop of crazy glue. Seems like it should work.

Forrest mentions: The Lee collet die has no expander mandrel! All this thing has is a collet to squeeze down the neck of the fired case and a de-capping punch.

The idea of the tool is to enable us reloaders to neck size a case a specified amount and AVOID the expanding-back procedure entirely.

Good morning,
Forrest
Forrest,

Perhaps you have different Lee collet dies than I have.
Mine are for rifle calibers and have a mandrel that also holds the decapping pin. The mandrel is what limits the action of the collet when sizing the neck.

Lee will make custom sized mandrels for the collet dies, but with their current backlog, you will probably expire of old age before getting one.

The instructions that came with my collet dies also require that you set the die to close well before the end of the stroke to avoid damaging the die.
I suppose that it would be possible to set the die to size as you suggest, but the results would depend entirely on the thickness of the neck. Since this is the problem that the collet die is designed to correct, short stroking the die would defeat its' purpose.

Jack