Uncompressed .45LC-loads?

[Texcut-Mike]

Hi,

I`v loaded a couple of .45LC with Swiss blackpowder no 2, 13 years ago. Due to lack of knowledge at that time, I missed to fill up the hole case and compress
the powder with the bullet. I used about 25 grains of powder. Now to my question: Can I shoot of this rounds without any hazard? Risk for high pressure
due to flashover in the case?
(I use a Uberti 1873 Cattleman SAA)

Looking forward to your opinions in this matter from all blackpowder-veterans!

Texcut-Mike

[cajun shooter]

If you have no filler or nothing but open space then I would pull the bullet and start over. You said a couple and I notice that you are in Sweden, I'm sure that a couple in Sweden is close to a couple in the US. Why take the chance!! Later David

[Boz330]

As dense as Swiss is I would think that 25gr would leave an airspace, so I'm with David on pulling them and starting over. Especially if there are only a few of them.

Bob

[TooManyMisses]

I am no expert but the cardinal rule with black powder in a muzzleloader is to have the projectile seated firmly on the powder charge, it reacts like an obstruction in the barrel otherwise. Pull the bullets and start over.

[Don McDowell]

Depending on what bullet you seated, you're probably alright. I can't think that 25 grs of#2 Swiss wouldn't at least touch or very nearly touch the base of the bullet.
It'll probably shoot dirty as all get out, but there most likely wouldn't be much problem
BUT if you're concerned about the possibility then pull the bullets scrape out the powder and start over again.

[John Boy]

Take an empty case and pour 25grs of Swiss #2 into it without any compression. Measure the distance from the top of powder charge to the mouth of the case.

Measure the seating depth of the bullet. If the seating depth is less than the distance from the powder charge to the case mouth - their is an air column in the loaded round.

Would I be concerned shooting them if there was an air space? No. We are not talking about a high pressure load

[Don McDowell]

John do you have that chart that shows us how European swiss #2 compares to the F sizes here?

[John Boy]

You know Don, I was looking for that chart in my references a couple of weeks ago with no luck. Today, had to be my lucky day

USA .................................................. ........... SUISSE
Fg (12 Mesh - 16 Mesh) .................................No.5 (13 Mesh - 16 Mesh)
FFg (16 Mesh - 30 Mesh) .................................No.4 (14 Mesh - 19 Mesh)
FFFg (20 Mesh - 50 Mesh) ...............................No.3 (14 Mesh - 26 Mesh)
FFFFg (40 Mesh - 100 Mesh)..................... .........No.2 (19 Mesh - 35 Mesh)
.................................................. .........................No.1 (35 Mesh - 65 Mesh)

[Don McDowell]

Thanks John, I thought I knew where you had last left it, but couldn't find it.

[w30wcf]

Texcut-Mike,

I agree with Don & John. I have fired some reduced charge Swiss b.p. loads in my .45 Colt that had airspace with no problems. As Don indicated, I found that the fouling was definitely greater than with the standard 40 gr. load I normally shoot.

Regarding airspace in b.p. cartridges..........Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's, the factory loaded b.p."Short Range" .32-40 and .38-55 and the "Armory" .45-70 cartridges all had b.p. loaded loosely in the shell. They were made with lighter bullets and about 1/2 the normal b.p. charge.

w30wcf

[NickSS]

There is no problem with firing black powder loads that do not fill the case. I have done so but the accuracy is poorer and fouling greater than when the powder is compressed. The famous sharps rifle (the percussion one not a metallic cartridge one) actually has air space behind the cartridge that the gas expands into to help seal the breach block.

[chuebner]

You know Don, I was looking for that chart in my references a couple of weeks ago with no luck. Today, had to be my lucky day

USA .................................................. ........... SUISSE
Fg (12 Mesh - 16 Mesh) .................................No.5 (13 Mesh - 16 Mesh)
FFg (16 Mesh - 30 Mesh) .................................No.4 (14 Mesh - 19 Mesh)
FFFg (20 Mesh - 50 Mesh) ...............................No.3 (14 Mesh - 26 Mesh)
FFFFg (40 Mesh - 100 Mesh)..................... .........No.2 (19 Mesh - 35 Mesh)
.................................................. .........................No.1 (35 Mesh - 65 Mesh)

If I am reading this chart correctly, #2 Swiss is comparable to 4F priming powder of which 25 gr. would be a pretty stout load in a 45LC case. I think I would pull them and start over with a powder comparable to 2 or 3F.

charlie

[jplower]

Don't ever worry about black powder and air spaces, the stuff produces pressures under 15,000, way below the average factory smokeless loads. Even if the stuff was powdered, the pressure would remain the same.

[Dan Cash]

If concerned do as one respondent said and charge a case with 25 gr of your powder and measure. If you do have space and are reluctant to shoot as is, seat the bullets deeper until powder is contacted and then shoot away. Have fun.

[John Boy]

Charlie, whoever put the chart together failed to line up the US v Swiss MESH SIZES.
No.2 (19 Mesh - 35 Mesh) for Swiss really correlates to a US mesh size of:
FFg - 20 mesh
FFFg - 30 mesh

Here's the missing chart that I was looking for, compliments of Dutch Bill, which is posted on The Open Range:

Note that the chart was done in the U.K. The Swiss sold to shooters in the U.K. goes by the Swiss grain size numbering system.
Converted to the U.S. Market system.
Swiss #1 powder is sold here as 4Fg.
Swiss #2 powder is sold here as 3Fg.
Swiss #3 powder is sold here as 2Fg.
Swiss #4 powder is sold here as 1&1/2 Fg.
Swiss #5 powder is sold here as 1Fg.

[Texcut-Mike]

OK. Thank you all for your advices.

Texcut-Mike

[1874Sharps]

Texcut-Mike et al,

Every book and manual I have read states that there should be no airspace between the base of the bullet and the black powder column. Black powder is an explosive, unlike smokeless powder and the pressure curve is much different. You run the risk of ringing the chamber if you do not seat the bullets without an airspace.

If you are looking for a reduced load for your 45 Colt, you might consider shooting 45 S&W Schofields in your Uberti Cattleman. I do this in CAS shooting. With an RCBS 230 grain bullet the load of FFFG in a 45 Colt case is 35 grains and in a 45 Schofield it is 25 grains. Loads are dropped through a drop tube to settle the powder and then lightly compressed. I have not tried this myself, but see no reason why it should not work: Try using a 45 Auto Rim case if you wish to get an extremely reduced load. The Auto Rim case is a 45 ACP case with a rim. It shoots the same diameter bullet as the modern 45 Colt and 45 Schofield and has a case capacity of around 15 grains of FFFG when topped with the aforementioned bullet. Hope this helps!

[cuzinbruce]

Auto Rim cases - I wouldn't think they would work in a 45LC chambered gun. MUCH thicker rim. Designed to simulate a 45 ACP with a half-moon clip. Rim is thickness of a 45 ACP rim PLUS a moon clip.

[Grapeshot]

Texcut-Mike et al,

Try using a 45 Auto Rim case if you wish to get an extremely reduced load. The Auto Rim case is a 45 ACP case with a rim. It shoots the same diameter bullet as the modern 45 Colt and 45 Schofield and has a case capacity of around 15 grains of FFFG when topped with the aforementioned bullet. Hope this helps!


You might try some of the .45 Cowby Special cases that are advertised over on CASCITY.COM (http://cascity.com).

I believe that Adarondak Jack is the pard to see on those. Go into the "Darksider's Den" for help on that.

[Griff]

Texcut-Mike,

I agree with Don & John. I have fired some reduced charge Swiss b.p. loads in my .45 Colt that had airspace with no problems. As Don indicated, I found that the fouling was definitely greater than with the standard 40 gr. load I normally shoot.

Regarding airspace in b.p. cartridges..........Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's, the factory loaded b.p."Short Range" .32-40 and .38-55 and the "Armory" .45-70 cartridges all had b.p. loaded loosely in the shell. They were made with lighter bullets and about 1/2 the normal b.p. charge.

w30wcfMy normal cowboy action load is just 25 grins of 2F or (nowadays) Goex Cartridge in a .45 Colt case with anywhere from a 160gr to 225gr pill on top. Let's see... been loadin' thusly since about 1986. And... hey, the USArmy used 25 grains behind a 250 grain bullet in the .45Colt... and I've seen pulled examples that used no filler... just space.

As said, accuracy is decreased, and fouling seems slightly increased in handguns, huge increases of blowby in rifles.

[Dale53]

If you prefer reduced charges. Do as Grapeshot suggests. The Cowboy Special cases have the same capacity as the .45 ACP and the .45 Auto Rim but have a .45 Colt size rim. They are specifically made for reduced loads in the .45 Colt. They also work WELL with smokeless powder. Loading data with smokeless is the same as .45 ACP.

THAT is the proper way to prepare reduced black powder loads for the .45 Colt.

Dale53