The 7.62x51 in "full military" Type 38 Jap

[FAsmus]

Genterlmen;

The material here is mainly a discription of some shooting I did with my Jap as coverted to 7.62, hung with a Lyman 17A and Williams receiver sight.

Considerable fitting was done by hand to get it shooting consistently and loads were conventional or taken as published in TFS;


The Jap at Long Range

Recently I went out to the Hill-Top range to meet a shooting friend of mine to do some long range practice with the Type 38.

Conditions were good – being all the way up to 45 degrees and only light and variable wind. The main trouble was with the mud caused by the high temperatures melting the snow – very messy!

I had the JAP along as loaded with 18.5 grains 4759 and the RCBS 180 gr. bullet. For this day I left the manually adjusted receiver sight staff in place. It is clumsy to use for fine adjustments but it was already on the rifle and I really am a little uncertain about the strength of the base mounting screw that I filed half-way through for clearance of the staff lead screw for the Williams with screw-adjustable staff. (but that's another story)

First was the 350 yard offhand “bucket” which we just made so as to duplicate the Quigley offhand target for practice. A tough target pretty much anyway even with a rest, offhand it’s a challenge. The JAP did well.

Next was the “Big Chicken” at 648 yards. I had no sight setting for the distance but guessed and got a hit with the first shot! It was fun. Subsequent rounds were all good, some hits a little high or low as I fiddled with my elevation adjustments. The short sight radius making for semi-critical elevation as I attempted to get things just right with the manual type elevation on the Williams sight.

Next came the “Big Round” at 670 yards. Where the JAP continued to shoot well with predictable hits coming right along. I was impressed by the apparent minimal drop of the RCBS bullet at that distance and I pretty much know it’ll do even better with the Varget load when I have the time to load some of that combination.

At last came the “Big Square” at 834 yards. I had no idea where to set the sight for the distance really, only knowing that if I could get on it at all the sight would be beyond the graduated scale on the staff. I guessed, set it, fired and missed quite low. I adjusted for the miss and, firing again, got the hit with my second round. My! What fun. The other fellows with their single shots did OK but really, no better than the 19½ inch barrel 7.62x51 on the military issue stock .. it was a fine day at the range.

I threatened the fellows that I’d just forget the big-bore single shots this coming Quigley and depend upon the bolt 7.62x51 instead, saying I’d just lie, post my data as if I were shooting something legal and shoot the JAP anyway.

Good evening,
Forrest

[jonk]

I'm quite impressed that that load could shoot at that distance. I've shot SR out to 200 yards but never thought it would make it to nearly 1000.

[FAsmus]

Jonk;

The sight radius ( 23 inches ) is everything here; because of the shortness of the barrel the supposed 3 minute graduations on the Willaims staff are more like 4 or 5 minutes each.

When shooting the faster 29 grain Varget load the elevation at 830 yards showes 60 "minutes" over the 100 yard setting on the graduations while the 4759 load is roughly 20 minutes past the maximum graduation engraved on the staff.

Of course, when setting the corrections into the sight during shooting one must be very careful because all you have to do is kind of blow on the sight and it'll move impact a foot out there at long range!

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The most recent modification to the sighting system on the JAP has been to retain the manual Williams sight base, complete with its full-diameter screws, remove the elevation screw and knob from the staff of a "Target" version of another Williams sight while leaving the windage knob in place.

(This is all necessary because Willaims designed the sight base in such a way that the elevation screw hole crosses the base mounting screw hole - making it impossible to use the elevation screw unless you file the mounting screw more than 1/2-way through for clearance. ~ Why did they design it that way? Who knows?)

This combination of the two Williams sights leaves me with the manual elevation for long range shooting while retaining the knob-adjustable windage of the "Target" version of the same sight.

This has worked out since, once established, the elevation does not change much at all, while the windage is virtually in constant use as conditions vary.

On the range all has gone well. The only thing the mixing of parts will not do is allow a 100-yard zero with the "Target" staff in place; it is simply too thick from the windage screw being in place that it will not go down far enough to zero at anything less than about 230 yards.

To allow for this all I have to do is keep the "Manual" staff in my range box and change over if I want to do some close-range shooting.

This little carbine has proven to be a highly enjoyable rifle at all distances. Now if I could only find a Type 99 follower to improve its feeding all would be completely fine.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Just a note here to bring this thread back to life.

Today it was pushing 90 at the range. I had the JAP and my son his M48 Yugoslavian Mauser.

I pounded my sun-shade umbrella into the prairie and we enjoyed the nice, warm, pretty much calm condition for as long as our ammunition held out.

The JAP was loaded with the RCBS 30-180-SP, as usual but I had it over 27 grains MR 4895 this time. Density Altitude on the hill top was 6200 feet. (DA is pressure altitude compensated for non-standard temperature.) Sheridan's elevation is right at 4000 feet, so you can see that DA is an important part of long range shooting.

The sun was bright, giving maximum contrast to the steel silhouettes, stepped out from 350 yards to 834 yards out to the NW of the firing line.

The JAP did well right from the start - my son's M48 gave him fits, primarily with erratic trigger release spoiling anything like consistent let-off and follow-through. He got so frustrated that we swapped rifles. He instantly did much better, while I struggled with the M48's clunker trigger.

It was a very good day.

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I got tired of the manually adjusted Williams sight on the Type 38 recently - too crude really - so I mounted an old Lyman 66 I had left sitting forgotten in a box for years. It fit the same mounting holes quite well and although it does not have the full elevation capability that the Williams did now I have both elevation and windage adjustments via normal screws and clicks.

The sight sits lower on the action and it has the short "hunting" length of staff. This makes it necessary to use an extension to the peep mount so that I can shoot it over our course of fire.

Here is a shot of the rifle on the line with the extension in place.

184598

The Lyman sight works well but runs out of windage at the 834 yard distance if the wind is medium-strong from the northwest. From the southeast there is always plenty..

Forrest

[TCLouis]

What did you use to come up with 7.62X51 chambering?

New barrel or rebore?

[Scharfschuetze]

Fasmus,

That's an interesting solution to to fix a short staff aperture sight. It's truly amazing how accurate these old military rifles are. With modern components and careful loading, their current abilities would certainly surprise COL Arisaka, COLs Schmit and Ruben as well as the Mauser brothers.

What range are you shooting at in Northern Wyoming? I've shot at the Buffalo shooting range, but I don't recall it going out to 1,000 yards. The Lander Valley Sportsman's range just makes it to 1,000 yards. At one time Shoshoni had a 1,000 yard range complete with target butts. Of course a lot of Wyoming is a rifle range with shooting in any direction without a soul to endanger.

[FAsmus]

TCLouis (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?171-TCLouis);

Way back in this thread the story about how the Type 38 came to be in its current configuration is fully told..

- F

[FAsmus]

Scharfschuetze (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?23645-Scharfschuetze):

I have messed with many different designs of military rifles.

The JAP is kind of like a Mauser but there are enough differences that I was never tempted to do any glass-bedding in the issue stock.

It is interesting to follow the differences in metallurgy as portrayed in case life. The old Mausers are noticeably 'stretchy' while things like the P-14 Enfields and double heat-treated Springfields are good for 30 or 40 reloads before trimming is necessary.

The JAP is solid - with no movement of the brass at all.

We have a 1000 yard distance but it is seldom used. The 834 yard distance seems to be enough to challenge us all.. Anyway the angular size of the silhouettes is about the same all the way out - the tough part is that the rifle ballistics and conditions become so much more important way out there..

Good evening, Forrest

[map55b]

Fun! I've built up two Type 38s, one is 308 for a friend and a second in 38-55. I have one action left and I'm thinking 219 zipper.

This is the one in 308. New bolt handle, milled down the right rear side of the receiver, filled in the cover slot on the left hand side, burned down the original safety, added a Timney and hinged the floor plate. This was was owned by my friend for ~50 years, was bubba'd and pitted. I think it turned out good and it shoots well. The 38-55 is a hoot to shoot and it will eat 375 Winchester no problem.

184834184835

[FAsmus]

mP55b:

Humm.. It looks like you covered up the Mum with that scope base.

- F

[map55b]

Hello FAsmus,

You'd be correct if the action still had its Mum. I did make sure that the scope base did not cover the gas escape ports. :)

[rhbrink]

Will the T-38 feed 308 brass out of the magazine?

[map55b]

As its a control feed, you do need to operate the bolt swiftly, but I've had no issues with .308 win without modification. I was also able to get a Type 38 to feed .3-55 without too much effort too. Just needed to open the bolt face, re-fit the extractor and adjust the rails to allow the cartridge to pop up at the correct time.

[FAsmus]

map55b;

You say: "As its a control feed, you do need to operate the bolt swiftly, but I've had no issues with .308 win without modification."

F: This is interesting information. I have never been able to feed his rifle from the magazine - the cartridges simply 'Pop' out all the way and never make it to the chamber.

So far as I know the follower is "as-issued". I have heard that a Type 99 follower fixes this this problem but I have not been able to locate one.

Next time out I'll try 'slapping' then in there instead of gently sliding them along.

- FAsmus

[NoAngel]

That's pretty cool.
I'd be happy if i could just see that far, never mind shooting that far.

[FAsmus]

NoAngel (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?37942-NoAngel):

The seeing/sighting/hitting of our targets is lots of fun.

I mentioned that the angular size of the silhouettes is similar all the way out. ~ The 350 "Offhand" is bigger but starting at the 395 Diamond they are small enough that (for me) lighting has to be good for a decent sight picture with the iron sights.

Some, like the 470 yard Small Rectangle, do not stand out well at all due to blending in with the backgound surface. It is actually more difficult to see/hit than the 834 yard Square..

185140
My dog Ginger at the 470 yard distance

185141
The Type 38 on our firing line.

- Cross-Stick rest only -

- FAsmus

[map55b]

Hello FAsmus,

Sorry for the delay in getting back at you. The Type 38 is a kissing cousin to the Mauser, as it uses a claw extractor and box magazine that was introduced with the Mauser 92 experimental (and became popular with the 93). When feeding the cartridge needs to make its way behind the extractor partway before it pops up. You might want to/need to relieve a bit of material on the bottom of the claw to encourage this. If the cartridge is popping up too quickly you might want to build up the ledge on the right hand side of the follower to push the case closer to the right hand side of the action.

Do you have issues feeding form the left hand side, right hand side and/or the last cartridge? Depending upon where your having feed issues you may have different issues to address. With a bit of work, I was able to get the (mostly) straight and rimmed 38-55 to feed in mine and with almost no work the 308 Win in my friends. Next I plan to do a 219 Zipper in the last Type 38 action I have on the shelf.

[FAsmus]

map55b (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?32710-map55b);

Roger the basic Mauser design of the Type 38 (and 99). My attention was to the wood/metal bedding system the Arisaka includes.

Way down in this thread I mentioned that I didn't mess with the bedding beyond scraping-in the front band's ID due to the gunsmith's + 0.008 error in the OD of the barrel at that point.

(PS: Pardon me; I did write about that - but not here. The article appeared in the CBA's journal The Fouling Shot..)

The 'new' issue Type 38 stock and my barreled action fit together very well. Some gaps made me want to glass it in but upon closer examination I noted that regardless of poor wood-metal fit the action itself and trigger guard - magazine locked together metal-to-metal in a way I knew had to have been designed into the rifle in the first place. ~ I left them that way.

Thanks for your pointers regarding the follower - I'll give them a try. ~ What material do you use to 'build up' one side of the follower or the other? Or do you simply bend it a little this way or that?

I have always used the rifle by loading it one round at a time. This procedure suits me well enough that I never was sufficiently inconvenienced to get serious about fixing it ~ I simply hold the cartridge down in the magazine long enough for the bolt to pick it up behind the extractor - then cambering normally. ~ I have not tried your "slap-it-closed" method yet because the range is covered with about a foot of snow, drifted deeper in places.

Forrest

[madsenshooter]

Rather than modify the boltface and such for the 38-55, wouldn't it be easier to turn down the rims to proper Arisaka diameter? I've made better fitting than what you can buy 6.5 Arisaka from .303 and 30-40 doing that.

[map55b]

Madsenshooter,

My logic was that it was only a few thousands off the bolt face, so an easy one time step that would then accept factory ammo too. If its preferred by someone modify all brass, that's okay too.

[map55b]

Hello Forrest,

I have not had to mess with the follower personally, but my mentor has suggested resin or use resin to hold a piece of shim stock. If its not right you only need a few hundred degrees to remove it.

[FAsmus]

map55b (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?32710-map55b);

You say: "If its not right you only need a few hundred degrees to remove it."

I do not know what your units refer to..

A 'degree' is a unit of angle, like when you turn a corner you have made a 90 degree change in direction.. Or possibly a degree of temperature like 32 degrees F is the freezing point of water ~ what is going on?

Forrest

[map55b]

Sorry Forrest,

I was referring to heat.n If you you resin/epoxy on something and wish to remove it, you just need a little heat to do it. Thus, if you use resin to build up the side and later want to remove it, just put some heat on it.

[FAsmus]

map55b (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?32710-map55b);

Ah!

I understand.

~ I may try to bend the follower some and check to see if the 'pop-up' trouble changes.

- F