38-55 Powder Granulation?

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Howdy all,

I have been loading my 38-55 with 3f Goex, New Goex Granulation Chart say's 1f. What do you use?

Thanks,

Sam :D

[NickSS]

I have tested my C Sharps 1885 high wall with several different powders and bullets to find a good target load. At least my rifle likes FFG over FFFG. FG works about as well as FFG but gives lower velocity. So I use FFG GOEX in my rifle. I load several different bullets depending upon range I will be shooting. Mostly I use the lyman 250 gr flat point but for longer ranges I use an NEI 310 gr round nose slug.

[JeffinNZ]

You don't list 1.5Fg. My .38-303 LOVES Swiss 1.5Fg.

[John Boy]

Sam, I use FFg - FFFg and Swiss 1.5. It's whatever your rifle likes best.
This is on the home page at Goex:

GRANULATIONS APPLICATIONS
GOEX Cannon ... Cannon
GOEX Fg ... Musket
GOEX FFg ... Rifle
GOEX FFFg ... Pistol
GOEX FFFFg ... Priming Only
GOEX Cartridge ... Cartridge Rifles

Maybe the sales are slow on Fg!

[cajun shooter]

+1 on John Boys Post. We all know that when it comes to BP there are no hard and fast rules. Paul Matthews points that out in his book, Shooting the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. You can have 10 shooters on the line and they all do something different. I will add that to copy what a good shooter does though is not a bad idea. John Boy is one that I ask on many different occasions. Each lot of BP can make a difference. Later David

[John Boy]

Here's my thoughts on which granulation should be used:
1. FFFFg - pan powder in a flintlock only
2. As for Fg - FFg or FFFg in a cartridge reload:
* How well does it burn?
* What velocity do I want to achieve for the distance I'm loading the round for. For any distance beyond 500m - I like to have the velocity at 1200fps or as close as the load will bear with proper compression depending on the powder make based on the weight of the bullet being used.

Here's some velocities:
38-55 ... 332gr ... 42gr FFg ... 1087fps
38-55 ... 292gr ... 43.5 FFg ... 1189fps
45-70 ... 535gr ... 68 FFFg ... 1218fps
45-70 ... 482gr ... 75gr Swiss #2 ... 1285fps
45-70 ... 492gr ... 70gr FFFg ... 1241fps
50-70 ... 457gr ... 70gr Skirmish Fg ... 1043fps
50-70 ... 457gr ... 70gr Express FFg ... 1222fps

And guess what? Some of the lower velocity recipes shot better than the higher ones past 500m with the bullet being used. But when your shooting 1000yds ... the closer to 1200 fps, I find they have better accuracy because the bullets are less in the subsonic range out at that distance.

So... again, it's what your rifle likes best. And as for pressure concerns - none of these velocities are even close to being over pressure ... even with the heavier bullets

Granulation sieve sizes are based on the number of grains of powder per 100 cubic cc's. Small granualation - more grains per cubic cc

[John Boy]

Let me drift back to Goex's new Loading Charts and specifically Fg in 38-55.
I just got off the phone with Mike Hodgdon (Birdshot) at 1-800-622-4366 x110. Asked him about the new Charts and using Fg in a 38-55. He says he has been using Fg in his 38-55 recipes with very good results, specifically Express Fg. Guess I'll have to try some and see what it does.

Also, he informed me that Hodgdon has been working on original gunpowder loading data even back in the era when they weren't a Black Powder company. That means back into the '70's. So I have to presume that all the data they have in the Charts has been tested at one time or another and is not just a SWAG. And they have data for calibers that I never have seen BP data for. The one that caught my eye was 38 Colt Police Positive cause I have one ... new in the box but will never be tested with BP, plus other calibers that I will never own. Have to admit, the Charts are extensive!

[boommer]

I thought that Hodgdon just bought Goex and Hodgdon only produced fake black up to now. maybe I'm wrong here? I load 1.5 in 38-55 with a 4f kicker and no compression to slight,to make COL. Cartridge Goex with a 4f kicker also was good load but it liked compression 1/4"worked great. Chart wise in black powder I guess it would be only good for basics because there are too many variables.

[August]

I don't know about others, but I got some wicked fouling using 3F Shutzen in the 38-55.

[Boz330]

I will add that to copy what a good shooter does though is not a bad idea. John Boy is one that I ask on many different occasions. Each lot of BP can make a difference. Later David[/QUOTE]

Life ain't long enough to make all the mistakes yourself, why not limit the possibilities from someone elses experiences. I haven't seen as much difference in lots with the Swiss BP, but I've only shot 3 different lots and haven't changed a thing.

Bob

[Jbar4Ranch]

Goex CTG works very well in my H&R .38-55.

[Baja_Traveler]

Swiss 1.5 here too...

[Hogpost]

Swiss FFFG. I hunt with my '94 Winchester, and want max velocity & max consistency with min fouling.
Do not have a chrony, so can only tell you it works better for me than anything else I've tried over many years.

[DEVERS454]

I had really good luck with both goex express FFg and pyrodex select FFg granulations.

I tried FFFg of goex and goex select and although velocity was higher, SD was erratic and accuracy went down. I tried an over powder card and it helped, but, I had to drop the charge down and that negated the velocity increases out of my 24" 1894.

My marlin liked FFFg but I found that having a softer alloy (30:1) was more important.

In the end I kelp the winchester and sold the marlin and just kept using FFg.

[Yellowhouse]

Kik Fg.

[Mike Brooks]

KIK 2Fg

[Bad Ass Wallace]

You have to go to basics, my 38/55 has the fast twist 1:12 barrel and will stabilise very heavy projectiles. My load with long Starline brass is 50gns Swiss No.2 (FFFG)and a 374gn Paul Jones Creedmoor boolit. This combination does something very strange; the large boolit seems to create a lot of back pressure, which in turn makes the powder burn super clean.

I first noticed this in my 50/90 when changing from a 510gn boolit to a 650 gn Paul Jones Creedmoor, bigger boolit, more chamber pressure, more complete burning of the powder! BTW my standard load for the big 50 is 105gns FG!

[Hogpost]

Mr. Wallace, sir, the amount of compression you use may be contributing to the effect;
how much compression are you using in that 38-55 load?
For max velocity, I often use the 225 grn SAECO with 50 grains Swiss FFFG,
and it seems to me I'm compressing it pretty heavily to reach standard OAL in the long case.
You've got to be squeezing it a whole lot more.
Perhaps I'm a wuss; but then again I'm here to learn. Do tell!

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The big 375gn boolit has 6 driving bands and only 3 are seated into the case, so there is very little compression. The nose is bore riding and the first 3 bands are rifling engraved at loading. My powder compression die is set to 0.030". Powder is dispensed to the case via a 26"drop tube.

The long Starline brass once fireformed will hold approx 4 gns more powder than the short case.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/PJBullet.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/PJBullet.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Starline3855.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Starline3855.jpg.html)

[Jeff Houck]

[QUOTE=Bad *** Wallace;2543175]The big 375gn boolit has 6 driving bands and only 3 are seated into the case, so there is very little compression. The nose is bore riding and the first 3 bands are rifling engraved at loading. My powder compression die is set to 0.030". Powder is dispensed to the case via a 26"drop tube.

The long Starline brass once fireformed will hold approx 4 gns more powder than the short case.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/PJBullet.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/PJBullet.jpg.html)

What velocity are you getting with your 50gr. charge of Swiss, was it 3F?
Any idea of how low in velocity you can go and still have a stable bullet?
Thanks, Jeff Houck

[Hogpost]

Ah, that makes great sense, and explains the difference.
I shoot an 1894 Winchester, and am therefore restricted by
the action to flat-nose boolits and a specific cartridge OAL.

You have a single-shot, and therefore OAL can be anything you
can get to chamber.

Thank you for the explanation.

[johnson1942]

bad *** wallace, im glad you posted about the size of a bullet and fouling. i have or had several paperpatch fast twist muzzleloaders from .40 cal to .50 cal. the .40 had the most fouling but the .50 1/23 twist that shoots a 700 grain bullet has very little at all. im always amazed at how clean it shoots. their is a little fouling and the bottom in the chamber but very little in the rest of the barrel. i alway figured it was the size and weight of the bullet and with what you said it most likely is. again thank for you input.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Jeff,

The full load is Swiss No.2 (3F) and gives me 1128fps ave. I was amazed when chronographing that the SD for 5 shots was just 6fps. The rifle is a Pedersoli and despite reports from others, it is the most reliable and accurate BPCR of about 30 rifles in my vault. BTW I use only Federal large pistol primers as during load development these gave the least shot to shot variation of any brand.

Sadly Swiss supplies are drying up here and I will have to start again with the Wano 3P brand in the New Year!

[Chill Wills]

Jeff,

The full load is Swiss No.2 (3F) and gives me 1128fps ave. I was amazed when chronographing that the SD for 5 shots was just 6fps. The rifle is a Pedersoli and despite reports from others, it is the most reliable and accurate BPCR of about 30 rifles in my vault. BTW I use only Federal large pistol primers as during load development these gave the least shot to shot variation of any brand.

BA - I am surprised at the velocity being that low. I would have guessed that load was going at least 1200 fps. My 38-55 running a 330 gr bullet with 51.5 gr 2F Swiss measures 1275fps.

I am not surprised that the rifle is your most accurate. It has all the good design features built into it. Maybe some day I will own one - but not soon.

[Gunlaker]

I've been using 58gr of Goex FFg Express and a breech seated 320gr PP bullet in my CSA highwall for about 1250fps.

My CPA with a breech seated tapered Hoch bullet seems to like 56gr of FFFg Express. I've not chronographed that load, but it's looking like an accurate load. This combo worked better than FFg Express. If I can only solve the case stretching that comes with it...

Chris.

[veeman]

near 9 year old thread

[indian joe]

near 9 year old thread

Hey Veeman
my 38/55 winchester commemorative gets FFFg powder, a single juice box wad, LEE 250 grain cast (plenty lube), gun loves it.
I rattled 23 through it in a 2 minute rapid fire one time at a 100 yard rabbit target and the last couple went in the middle
Proly couldnt do that now but it was fun then!

[veeman]

Haven't tried BP in my Crazy Horse yet, some day. Still fiddling around with the 76's mostly.

[BLAHUT]

I USE ONLY BLACKHORN209, 42grs, 500 - 525 gr BULLET, PURE LEAD, MAG PRIMER, MAKE MY OWN LUBE, A PAPER WAD OVER POWDER, A PLASTIC WAD UNDER BULLET, 1200 fps OR A TAD LESS, VERY ACCURATE OUT TO 1000 METERS,
I SHOOT A ROLER SO WITH A SLIGHT COMPRESSION>

[indian joe]

Haven't tried BP in my Crazy Horse yet, some day. Still fiddling around with the 76's mostly.

heard tell blackpowder plays havoc with the silver finish ? dont know - mine is gold plate and the black dont hurt it - finish is ultra thin so dont hold up on edges but its a shooter not an ornyment. Have not had my 76 out for too long !!!

[Lead pot]

I don't shoot a .38-55 but I shoot a .38-50 Rem Hepburn. It's just a little longer shell case than the .38-55 at 2.250" and I use a 356-360 grain PP bullet with black powder only. This little caliber seems to shoot well with granulations from 1.5FG to 3FG testing different ladder load brands of powder.
This rifle has given me some fine accuracy as well as frustration :roll: but all in all it is a shooter.Below are chronograph shot records of some granulations and for a close 100 yard target I shot at with these test loads the velocity this little shell was a surprise and it lays a 500 yard iron ram down in fine shape. :)

303494

[veeman]

heard tell blackpowder plays havoc with the silver finish ? dont know - mine is gold plate and the black dont hurt it - finish is ultra thin so dont hold up on edges but its a shooter not an ornyment. Have not had my 76 out for too long !!!
Its the Frontiersman thats silver, the Crazy Horse is Blued and CCH. Shame on you for neglecting the 76! I'm telling the guys on you!!

[indian joe]

Its the Frontiersman thats silver, the Crazy Horse is Blued and CCH. Shame on you for neglecting the 76! I'm telling the guys on you!!

ooooops ....the one with the nails in the wood ... shoulda knew that
I like the look of the silver one best - not a particular fan of my gold plated OFW - just wanted a 38/55 - it came into view and the thing shoots!!!

[BLAHUT]

I tried all of the above and found blackhorn209 worked great for me. 42grs under a 500-525 gr pure lead bullet sized to .461 at 1200 fps or a tad less. 1200fps and very accurate out to 1000 meters and beyond. Blackhorne209 will work well with compression in a 45/70. Just what works for me. No buildup of crud between shots and cleans up easy. No leading, I make my own lube.

[missionary5155]

When we get north the 76's come out. My favorite is the 50-95 with a 350 grain with a cereal box wad pushed by 3F Goex. Shoot 10 and run a spit patch. Let it cool in the shade while shooting a 45-60 off the cross sticks. Swap back and forth till the 20-50 rounds are gone.

[ascast]

have used Goex Crtg for years. I found it good enough to hit Rams consistantly.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

They haven’t made Goex cartridge since 1996. You must have a rather large supply of it. Or don’t shoot it much.

KW

[indian joe]

They haven’t made Goex cartridge since 1996. You must have a rather large supply of it. Or don’t shoot it much.

KW

I still have 5 kilos of Goex 5FA from the same era - and yeah guilty on both counts 1)had over 100pounds of it stashed at one point 2)dont shoot it much (savin it for a rainy day) I went to a major comp early days with barely enough powder to shoot the events - that aint happenin again ever!

[Gunlaker]

This is a pretty old thread and in the 9+ years since I've posted my reply I can say that there are a number of powders that work well in the .38-55.

Swiss 1.5 Fg is very good, and if you don't need quite as much velocity ( i.e. 200 yard schuetzen shooting ) then Swiss Fg and even plain Goex Fg can work extremely
well.

The target below is from one of my CPA rifles during load testing with plain Goex Fg. 12 shots at 223 yards. The cold bore shot is the low one. The 9 shots in the ten ring are well under 1 moa. There are two additional flyers that ruined the group. I'm not someone that shoots much from the bench and the traditional stock with pronged butt plate make it easy for me to make ugly flyers :-).

309267

Chris.

[ascast]

to KW both true these days