Pulling hair out - 9mm LRN bullets spinning in case

[webby4x4]

Hi all - I'm a new reloader (only about 2-3 months experience) and brand new to these forums.

Here is my dilemna - When loading my cast 9mm boolits, I can give the boolit a twist with my hands, and it will "pop" slightly, and then spin free in the case. Here are the details - I'm hoping someone can help me...

- Lyman All American turrett press
- RCBS 3-die carbide taper crimp 9mm die set (Part # 20515)
- Lee 6-gang 125 grain round nose mold (part # 90457)

The boolit's diameter - .3565" - .3568" (most are right at .3565")

I slugged the bore of my 9mm, and here are the measurements (I measure 5 times to make sure it was accurate):
.3610" at the lands
.3555" at the grooves

I've seated my boolits anywhere from:
1.169" OAL to 1.100" OAL (Just as a test only... there was no primer or powder in the cases)


PROBLEM:
The first time I went to load up a set of 50 rounds, I found that my boolits would pop loose and spin inside the case if I grabbed the case in one hand, and the bullet in the other and gave it a twist (not a lot of pressure either, mind you). I can't remove the boolit with my hand, but it can be pulled outward about 1/32" to 1/16". The result is that the booolit is not seated tightly in the case.

The first thing I thought of, was that my Lyman .356" lube / resizer die was too small. I sent it back to Lyman and then measured / inspected it and came back fine. Problem remained.

I then decided NOT to resize, and start lubing with Lee Liquid Alox, thinking that the boolits would be slightly larger in diameter and problem would go away. However, the problem still exists.

I've reloaded about 15 rounds WITHOUT running the case through the belling (expander / flare) die and it seems to help some. Accordingly, I reduced the flare on the case to the point where it BARELY flared at all. The result is that the bullet seats better, but some lead "spills" onto the outter, top edge (mouth) of the brass and needs to be scraped away with my fingernail.

If I don't lube the boolits at all, they definately lock in place very well, but I know that this is not an option.

My assumptions are this:
1) The lead may be too soft. My castings are pure lead (no tin / antinomy)
2) The boolit lube is causing some issues perhaps

At this point, I'm really pulling my hair out and can't figure out why I'm not getting my boolits to lock into the brass casing.

For what it's worth, when I reload 124 gr FMJ's, they load PERFECTLY and have no issues at all.

Thanks,
Rick

[StarMetal]

Hi all - I'm a new reloader (only about 2-3 months experience) and brand new to these forums.

Here is my dilemna - When loading my cast 9mm boolits, I can give the boolit a twist with my hands, and it will "pop" slightly, and then spin free in the case. Here are the details - I'm hoping someone can help me...

- Lyman All American turrett press
- RCBS 3-die carbide taper crimp 9mm die set (Part # 20515)
- Lee 6-gang 125 grain round nose mold (part # 90457)

The boolit's diameter - .3565" - .3568" (most are right at .3565")

I slugged the bore of my 9mm, and here are the measurements (I measure 5 times to make sure it was accurate):
.3610" at the lands
.3555" at the grooves

I've seated my boolits anywhere from:
1.169" OAL to 1.100" OAL (Just as a test only... there was no primer or powder in the cases)


PROBLEM:
The first time I went to load up a set of 50 rounds, I found that my boolits would pop loose and spin inside the case if I grabbed the case in one hand, and the bullet in the other and gave it a twist (not a lot of pressure either, mind you). I can't remove the boolit with my hand, but it can be pulled outward about 1/32" to 1/16". The result is that the booolit is not seated tightly in the case.

The first thing I thought of, was that my Lyman .356" lube / resizer die was too small. I sent it back to Lyman and then measured / inspected it and came back fine. Problem remained.

I then decided NOT to resize, and start lubing with Lee Liquid Alox, thinking that the boolits would be slightly larger in diameter and problem would go away. However, the problem still exists.

I've reloaded about 15 rounds WITHOUT running the case through the belling (expander / flare) die and it seems to help some. Accordingly, I reduced the flare on the case to the point where it BARELY flared at all. The result is that the bullet seats better, but some lead "spills" onto the outter, top edge (mouth) of the brass and needs to be scraped away with my fingernail.

If I don't lube the boolits at all, they definately lock in place very well, but I know that this is not an option.

My assumptions are this:
1) The lead may be too soft. My castings are pure lead (no tin / antinomy)
2) The boolit lube is causing some issues perhaps

At this point, I'm really pulling my hair out and can't figure out why I'm not getting my boolits to lock into the brass casing.

For what it's worth, when I reload 124 gr FMJ's, they load PERFECTLY and have no issues at all.

Thanks,
Rick

Okay...first. You have your bore and groove nomenclature backwards. Looking through the barrel the rifling grooves are just that...groove. Now the raised metal between the grooves are the lands, more correctly the tops of those raised metal strips are the lands. Lands are what are left of the bore after the barrel has been rifled.

If you can, that is if your pistols chamber will let you, chamber a loaded round with a bullet that is .001 to .002 larger then the groove diameter, you're set to go. If not try bullets right at groove. If those don't you're kinda of screwed unless you get a bullet to enter the bore straight and obturate to it and fill the grooves too.

Yes pure lead is too soft. A good mixture is either straight WW's, or WW's mixed 50/50 with your pure lead. WW is wheelweight.

Try these suggests and report back. By the way what brand 9mm do you have that has that size groove?

Joe

[Trey45]

Sounds more like an improper crimp to me.

[StarMetal]

Sounds more like an improper crimp to me.

You should not be able to turn your bullet crimp or no crimp.

Joe

[DLCTEX]

It's possible you are over crimping the case, which causes it to bulge away from the boolit, but the fact that jacketed is holding would discount that. I would suspect that the problem is the soft boolit is being sized by the case. I also think pure lead is not hard enough for a 9mm and will cause leading problems, as will a boolit that is smaller than groove diameter. The soft boolits are also more easily deformed by the action of the semi autos that 9mm is commonly fired in. 50/50 lead/WW would be a better choice IMHO

[webby4x4]

StarMetal - sorry about that... I actually transposed those on purpose (knowing that the lands and grooves are related to the barrel, I transposed it because I was now talking about the boolit... The grooves being the shallow side on the boolit). Either way, I think the measurements are right.


Sounds more like an improper crimp to me.

I've tried adjusting the crimp/seating die about 30 times (not exaggerating). I've gone to all of the extremes, even bringing the base of the seating/crimp die all the way down so that the shell holder touches the base of the die when I'm at the top travel of my press.

I'm going to remelt all of those boolits down again, and add tin/antimomy to it now (Another forum suggested that I add about 24" of 90/10 solder to 10 pounds of lead (90% tin, 10% antinomy, which I have)). That should harden the lead up enough.

I'll report back in an hour.

Thanks folks!

Rick

[StarMetal]

When you have an alloy that has the properties of hardening you have to give fresh cast bullets some time to age harden, especially if they are water dropped straight from the mould or water quenched from the oven. Pistol bullet don't seem as fussy as heat treated rifle bullets. I heat treat my semi auto pistol bullets to make them tougher for when the nose hits the feed ramps on the pistols that have that happen.

Adjust your expander/belling die so it just barely bells the case mouth just enough to start the bullet. Then I adjust my seating die to just crimp that bell back in some. The shellholder and bottom of the crimping die shouldn't touch. I would think that would be over crimping. Screw the seating die in the press enough that you have enough adjustment with the seating stem to seat your bullet to the depth you want. What I would do, to make this easier to understand, is do what I just said, seat all the bullets. Then screw the seating stem all the ways up. Next loosen the lock nut on the seating die body. Now put a loaded round you just seated a bullet in, in the shellholder and run it all the way up and leave it there. Next slowly screw the seating die down until you feel resistance. That should be the crimp ledge inside the die againg the mouth of the round. Now back your ram down and run your die body in about 1/8th turn, then run your case back up and see how much that crimps the flared mouth in. When you get it to where the flave is gone and the case mouth is tight against the bullet, lock the die nuts and then crimp the remaining cartridges. Now here's what I do with many calibers. When I have a round in and getting crimped, I run the seating stem down to until it touchs the bullet. Lock it at that point. Now what we've done is in the future you can seat and crimp the bullet all in one stroke. Some prefer to still do it the first way I explained.

Good luck
Joe

[deltaenterprizes]

Check the diameter of the expander it should be .353 so that you get a .002'' press fit, the one you may be for a 38 that would be expanding the case to .355''.

[9.3X62AL]

Too much taper crimp. Betcha.

Unalloyed lead is a "dead metal''--it has no "springback" when compressed. Brass has springback when compressed, so the brass springs back and in effect releases the case neck tension from the now-compressed boolit sidewall. Alloyed lead and jacketed bullets have far more resistence to compression--hence, your jacketed reloads worked fine, and alloyed lead bullets should work better than pure lead.

Taper crimping is VERY problematic with any bullet in combination with bullet seating. Seating should be completed prior to placement of taper crimp, and taper crimp should be DAMN GENTLE to prevent compression of lead bullet sidewalls. ALL of my taper crimping gets done as a seperate die step, after bullet seating is complete.

[HeavyMetal]

Try another resizing die!

Since you have completely removed all the belling and you can still twist your boolits I have got to think the sizing die is not getting the brass back to "factory Speck"

See if some one local will let you try another type or brand and see if this tightens up your boolit "pull".

I honestly think your looking at the wrong end of the die set!

[Willbird]

Check the diameter of the expander it should be .353 so that you get a .002'' press fit, the one you may be for a 38 that would be expanding the case to .355''.

Actually an expander is quite often the same as bullet dia. This is because when you size brass it springs back. For rifle stuff I have seen it in print and my own experiments say it springs back .0016" on the dia. This is if you are firing it in a chamber, or sizing it down, or expanding it up.

So a .355 expander should in theory give .0016 of neck tension on a .355 bullet. I agree that he should mike the expander though and see what it measures, using a 0-1 micrometer not dial calipers.

Bill

[Leftoverdj]

Lot of possibilities here. Your case sizing die may be an bit loose or your lot of cases may be slightly thin. Chamfering the case mouths will reduce the chance of shaving with a minimum flare, but I doubt the flare is the problem. The expander portion of the stem could well be part of the problem. You can check that by flaring some cases by other means.

Using pure lead is certainly part of the problem. As has been mentioned, the case could be sizing bullets that soft. Adding tin might help a little, but adding antimony, probably by adding WW or lino, will help a lot. It not only increases hardness, it will increase the diameter slightly.

If you happen to be using one of the mould release agents, scrub it off before doing any more casting. The spray graphite products reduce diameter by more than enough to cause problems. So does casting at a high temperature.

[StarMetal]

After checking out those RCBS dies on the internet they are a taper crimp die. Like Al said I think he's taper crimping them too much. You fellows know I don't like taper crimp dies. I have no use for them, never will. If this fellow's problem is over taper crimping he may have never had this problem from the get go. He probably would have had a leading problem from shooting pure lead though.

Disregard my instructions for setting up a roll crimp die and follow the instructions that came with your RCBS taper crimp dies.

Joe

[webby4x4]

OK - I just cast up a set of hardened lead bullets and am still having the same problem. I actually cast two sets of boolits: 1 set of 20 that had an appropriate percentage of tin and antinomy, and another that had roughly double the amount of tin and anitinomy.

What I'm seeing is this:
I flare / bell the case mouth EVER SO SLIGHTLY. It's barely enough to allow the bullet to just barely fit inside. I mean, it's almost not even noticeable with the naked eye.

I go to seat the boolit into the case and then I run the press. What I'm seeing (upon further examination) is that the bullet seats, and then when the cartridge is being lowered, it appears that the boolit is hanging up a bit inside the seating/taper die. This is causing it to pull back out slightly, which grooves the lead.

Perhaps I am indeed over-crimping it. I'll try another set now, trying to reduce the taper crimp even further.

Rick

[StarMetal]

OK - I just cast up a set of hardened lead bullets and am still having the same problem. I actually cast two sets of boolits: 1 set of 20 that had an appropriate percentage of tin and antinomy, and another that had roughly double the amount of tin and anitinomy.

What I'm seeing is this:
I flare / bell the case mouth EVER SO SLIGHTLY. It's barely enough to allow the bullet to just barely fit inside. I mean, it's almost not even noticeable with the naked eye.

I go to seat the boolit into the case and then I run the press. What I'm seeing (upon further examination) is that the bullet seats, and then when the cartridge is being lowered, it appears that the boolit is hanging up a bit inside the seating/taper die. This is causing it to pull back out slightly, which grooves the lead.

Perhaps I am indeed over-crimping it. I'll try another set now, trying to reduce the taper crimp even further.

Rick

If you can with that die set, try no taper crimp at all and just seat the bullet see what you get.

Joe

[webby4x4]

If you can with that die set, try no taper crimp at all and just seat the bullet see what you get.

Which means I need to NOT flare the basing then, right? I'll try that now.

TONS of good information on these forums. All of you are REALLLLLLY helpful (unlike some other forums). Thank you guys, very much.

Rick

[Phil]

You still have to flare the case to seat a cast lead bullet, or really any bullet in a pistol round. what he's saying is to not crimp the case mouth after seating the bullet and see what happens.

Cheers,

Phil

[webby4x4]

Well... You guys are geniuses, and I'm an idiot.

It appears that I was indeed over crimping it with the taper crimp. Here's what I did...

1) I flared the brass ever so slightly and then seated a bullet without any crimp. The bullet locked in perfectly.

2) I then readjusted the die so that it would only remove the bell / flare from the brass, and seat the bullet (In essence, not providing any crimp that can be seen with a magnifying glass, but just removing the flare).

It works perfectly.

I feel awful stupid as I've been messing with this for 3 weeks with no luck. I've adjusted those dog-gone dies 50 times, if I've adjusted them once and I could swear I backed off the taper crimp a lot.

Anyhow, that appears to have done it. I can't thank you guys enough - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

I'll quietly go back to my hole now and continue to feel stupid. :)

Rick

[StarMetal]

Well... You guys are geniuses, and I'm an idiot.

It appears that I was indeed over crimping it with the taper crimp. Here's what I did...

1) I flared the brass ever so slightly and then seated a bullet without any crimp. The bullet locked in perfectly.

2) I then readjusted the die so that it would only remove the bell / flare from the brass, and seat the bullet (In essence, not providing any crimp that can be seen with a magnifying glass, but just removing the flare).

It works perfectly.

I feel awful stupid as I've been messing with this for 3 weeks with no luck. I've adjusted those dog-gone dies 50 times, if I've adjusted them once and I could swear I backed off the taper crimp a lot.

Anyhow, that appears to have done it. I can't thank you guys enough - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

I'll quietly go back to my hole now and continue to feel stupid. :)

Rick

Now get a better bullet alloy, either all wheelweights or 50/50 ww's and lead.

Joe

[webby4x4]

Thanks StarMetal (Joe)!

By adding the 95% tin / 5% antinomy (fluxless solder), this seems to have hardened the bullets quite nicely.

Unfortuantely, I can't get WW's anywhere around the northern Dallas area. Over the past 3 months, I've stopped by every single tire store and none will sell them or give them away. All of the national chains seem to contracts on this, and none of the small stores will sell them either (I even tried bribing with beer, pizza and loose women). :)

I've been relegated to paying $1 / pound at the only place in norhtern Dallas that sells metal to the public. All I can get is pure lead. :(

If anyone has any other ideas, I am - of course - all ears.


thanks again all.

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

i think starmetals thought may be the answer. its a very short case and if you overbell the case before seating you can take alot of the neck tension from the case. You should be able to tell if its that or if its your dies by measuring a case after sizing.

[Trey45]

Might be a long shot, and it might be a metric ton of lead, but check around for boat wrecking yards or boat salvage yards for keel weights. Also, older heavy equipment used to have fenders made from lead, if there's an equipment salvage yard around you may want to check there too. Tractor counter weights are mostly cast iron, but some are lead, same with track crane counter weights, usually iron, but occasionally lead.

[HeavyMetal]

You can also try stopping into a truck maintence facility. These guys do a lot of big tires on 18 wheelers and I've scored some of my best WW at these places.

The "contractors" seem to concentrate on car places. If your paying a buck a pound for lead try Rotometals list aT THE TOP OF THE PAGE.

The link will get you to the price section fast and you may find a better buy for that dollar.

[webby4x4]

You can also try stopping into a truck maintence facility. These guys do a lot of big tires on 18 wheelers and I've scored some of my best WW at these places

Great idea - thanks!

[Safeshot]

I think that there people on this forum in the "Swappin and Sellin" section that sell wheel weights by the flat rate mail box. Some also sell WW ingots. May be cheaper (and better for bullets) than "plain lead". A little tin added to WW alloy or WW alloy and lead - 50 /50 may be helpful also. Good luck

[crawfobj]

I picked up some WW at a scrap metal/recycling dealer in Dallas the other day. I gave up on getting a handful of WW at a time from the tire shops. Quick and easy purchase at a reasonable price sure saved me alot of door to door time looking.

[thebigmac]

"I'll quietly go back to my hole now and continue to feel stupid' IS NO WAY A BEGINNER TO THINK OR ACT. THAT'S ONLY FOR POLITICIANS WHO SPEAK WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUBJECT. WELCOME TO THE BOOLIT CASTERS....BIG MAC

[webby4x4]

IS NO WAY A BEGINNER TO THINK OR ACT. THAT'S ONLY FOR POLITICIANS WHO SPEAK WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE SUBJECT. WELCOME TO THE BOOLIT CASTERS....BIG MAC

LOL! Well... I was certainly embarrassed by this one, mostly because I've been banging my head against the wall for weeks on this. I'm glad I have it nailed now - with the help of everyone here.

Thanks
Rick

[9.3X62AL]

Cool deal, sir. I'm not a huge fan of taper crimping, either. All that needs doing is straightening of the flared case mouth back to the case body's line.

The 9mm Luger is NOT a beginner's caliber for the reloader. It can be a finicky, tempermental PITA.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A DUMB QUESTION--unless it goes unasked. We learn these tricks and tips because we made these same mistakes and false starts ourselves. EVERYONE HERE was new at this hobby at one time or another.

[acemedic13]

LOL! Well... I was certainly embarrassed by this one, mostly because I've been banging my head against the wall for weeks on this. I'm glad I have it nailed now - with the help of everyone here.

Thanks
Rick

I went through the same thing when I first started reloading. I started reloading with 41 mag, and I was overcrimpming the hell out of the cases!

I started reloading on a dillon 650, so I just read the manual, and it told me right in there. Dillon seems to know what mistakes we will make and has the answers right in the factory handbook. Dont feel stupid (even though I did too.....) It just comes with time. Welcome to the hobby.

[webby4x4]

The 9mm Luger is NOT a beginner's caliber for the reloader. It can be a finicky, tempermental PITA.

Phew! That's nice to know. My .45 ACP reloads are a piece of cake compared to this, that's for sure. I suppose if I can do well with 9mm, my .40, .45, etc. will be even better.

Once again - thank you.

Regards,
Rick

[webby4x4]

Dont feel stupid (even though I did too.....) It just comes with time. Welcome to the hobby.

Thanks, I've been having a BALL! It's a really great outlet for me. I'm not doing this because of the cost savings (although, that's a nice benefit), but I do like the peace and quiet of it all.

My father recently gave me all of his reloading equipment (presses, melting pots, brass, primers, powder, bullets, molds, gauges, lathes, scales, dies, tools, manuals, etc. - essentially everything I needed). His car was completely loaded - the trunk, the back seat, the passenger front seat - all completely filled with reloading equipment.

He and I spent 2 weeks together reloading, where he taught me the basics, and a few "ol' timer" tricks too. He had never reloaded a 9mm before, so that part was new to me. I assumed it was the same as .45 and .40 - but I learned pretty quickly that it wasn't. As 9.3X62AL says - it sure is finicky.

This is a great hobby for me, and having people like you guys makes it even better.

Rick

[Echo]

+1 for 9.6x62Al - too much crimp on a dead soft boolit.

And go to Ebay and buy already-rendered WW's. Delivered for ~$!/lb.

[MtGun44]

If the groove diam is actually .361 and the boolit diam is .356, you
are not going to get much accy.

If the groove is actually .3555 and the .361 is a typo or something, I'd
still want .357" boolits. 9mms are notorious for shooting very poorly
with 'normally sized' boolits and doing well with .002" over groove
diam. If they will chamber OK, even .358 may be better accy.

Taper crimp enough to push about half the thickness of the brass
case mouth into the lead, no more. Make certain that if you grab a
loaded round and push the boolit against the edge of the workbench
as hard as you can that you CANNOT push the boolit into the case.
If it pushes in, the pressures can go through the roof.

A blown case with the plastic guns will total the gun.

Bill

[Firebricker]

Try roto metals

[Rick N Bama]

LOL! Well... I was certainly embarrassed by this one, mostly because I've been banging my head against the wall for weeks on this. I'm glad I have it nailed now - with the help of everyone here.

Thanks
Rick

There's absoutely no need to feel that way at all. I think most of us have been there & done that before ourselves................I still do from time to time:)

Welcome to the board, & by all means, stop in often.

BTW, I'm another Rick,

Rick N Bama

[armyrat1970]

Well... You guys are geniuses, and I'm an idiot.

It appears that I was indeed over crimping it with the taper crimp. Here's what I did...

1) I flared the brass ever so slightly and then seated a bullet without any crimp. The bullet locked in perfectly.

2) I then readjusted the die so that it would only remove the bell / flare from the brass, and seat the bullet (In essence, not providing any crimp that can be seen with a magnifying glass, but just removing the flare).

It works perfectly.

I feel awful stupid as I've been messing with this for 3 weeks with no luck. I've adjusted those dog-gone dies 50 times, if I've adjusted them once and I could swear I backed off the taper crimp a lot.

Anyhow, that appears to have done it. I can't thank you guys enough - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

I'll quietly go back to my hole now and continue to feel stupid. :)

Rick

First thing Rick. Welcome to the forum. Second. Don't feel badly about overlooking one step in the process when it comes to handloading or even more when it comes to handloading your own cast bullets. There is room for many mistakes and it is always a learning process. First tme I tried to set a light crimp with my Lee Speed Die for the 45ACP I quickly crushed a few cases after continuing to re-adjust the die. I don't crimp for the 45 anymore but have been reading about the Lee Factory Crimp Die and it is on my want list. I have been handloading for around 8 or 9 years now and loading my cast bullets for a couple of years. I still make mistakes at times. Everyone here has and still does. But you have come to the right place as these guys have a wealth of knowledge and love to talk shop.
Your post have given me some more insight.
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook states that the 9mm should not even be crimped. It also states that about any cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth. I have read from many others on different forums that they apply crimps with no problems. It's all a learning process and you have to find what works for you.

[gunarea]

Hey Rick
I've been following this thread watching your progress. My frustration was similar and different at the same time. A Lee factory crimp die solved the problem completely. It makes the two adjustments so much more easy.
Join the club in alloy distress. Fee-bay is a good source for wheel weight. It is a little pricey, but as hobbies go, casting/reloading beats the crap out of skydiving money wise. IMO
Roy

[Bret4207]

If the groove diam is actually .361 and the boolit diam is .356, you
are not going to get much accy.

If the groove is actually .3555 and the .361 is a typo or something, I'd
still want .357" boolits. 9mms are notorious for shooting very poorly
with 'normally sized' boolits and doing well with .002" over groove
diam. If they will chamber OK, even .358 may be better accy.

Taper crimp enough to push about half the thickness of the brass
case mouth into the lead, no more. Make certain that if you grab a
loaded round and push the boolit against the edge of the workbench
as hard as you can that you CANNOT push the boolit into the case.
If it pushes in, the pressures can go through the roof.

A blown case with the plastic guns will total the gun.

Bill

I was wondering if anyone else noticed those numbers Bill. If Ricks measurements are correct then this particular 9mm is a candidate for some fatter boolits IMO.

[webby4x4]

Welcome to the board...(X5)
Thanks folks! I have to say, everyone here has been exceptionally polite, and chock-full o' great advice. I think I've struck a gold mine. :)


I was wondering if anyone else noticed those numbers Bill. If Ricks measurements are correct then this particular 9mm is a candidate for some fatter boolits IMO

I very well may have measured it wrong. I tried measuring the bullet's diameter with the calipers vertically and horizontally in the lands and groves of the bullet. The base of the bullet got pretty deformed while I was trying to slug the bore, and the last "whack" on the dowel crushed the base pretty good, so it might be off a bit.

I've measured the O.D. of some FMJ's that I reloaded and shot very nicely (tight groups at 7, 10 and 15 yards) and they are the same O.D. as my cast boolits.

I didn't want to increase the size of the boolit, because I've read that cast boolits raise preesure in a chamber / barrell considerably more than an FMJ bullet, because they seal in the barrel more. I guess, being new at this, I haven't wanted to experiment with anything that would raise pressures (I even stay pretty far away from max listed pressures still).

I guess my question now is: Is there a proper way to measure the correct OD for a cast boolit for a particular gun?

Also - and this may complicate things... I have 2 9mm pistols that I love to shoot (A new XD9 and a P89DC). If I had my druthers, I'd like to load rounds that can be used in both pistols.

Thanks,
Rick

[Hardcast416taylor]

I quit sizing 9mm boolits with a .356 sizer years ago. I use the same sizer I use for the .38 spcl. and the .357 mag. which is a .359" sizer. I use either 50/50 ww & pb or just ww. I find my ww anymore at a salvage yard (aka "junk" yard) I may wind up with some Fe and Zn weights but I get enough ww to make it worth while. Out of 150 lb. I recently got I had about 5 lb. of foreign metal weights in the pails. :castmine: Robert

[webby4x4]

Fe and Zn weights

Iron and Zinc? (Just making sure... there are more acronyms in shooting than Rosanne Barr has consumed donuts). :)

[MtGun44]

Bret,

I waited until they solved the taper crimp problem - amazing how often a semiauto
loading problem is traced to the taper crimp. The whole dimensional thing looked
pretty screwy to me. I still think there is a typo or mismeasurement.

Now - webbey4x4 --

I think you have it backwards on lead vs jacketed and pressure.

You will generally see loading data the indicates a same wt boolit will accept more
powder and generate higher velocity within the pressure limits, compared to a
jacketed for pistols.

I interpret this to mean lower friction coefficient against the bore. Also, all normal
journal bearings (like your car's crankshaft) use a tin-lead babbit coating on the surface
because this has very low friction against smooth steel when properly lubricated - a
key point - you need a good bullet lube, not so much for preventing excess pressure,
but to keep from leading the bore.

In any case you don't find loading manuals showing higher pressure with a lead alloy
boolit compared to a jacketed.

A lead boolit at .357 or .358 will be extremely unlikely to do anything besides shoot
a lot more accurately than a .356 diam boolit in a 9mm Para. The only possible issue
is if the chamber is so tight you can't chamber or it can't release the boolit.

Take a fired case and see if a .357 or .358 boolit will slide into the case. If so, you
are home free as far as releasing the boolit. You need build a dummy round with
a .357 boolit and see if it will thumb press into the chamber of the dismounted
barrel.

The correct way is to drive a slightly oversized lead slug thru the dismounted
and lightly lubed barrel. I use a steel rod wrapped in electrical tape, starting
the slug with a plastic hammer until flush, usually shearing off a ring of lead.
Soft lead is easier than a cast oversized boolit, but take a 9mm cast boolit and
put it on the anvil of a vise and give it a moderate and very straight whack with
a steel hammer to increase the diameter a bit. Then drive thru the bbl.

Measure carefully, it is soft. If you doubt it, repeat the process. Drive on the
bbl with it on a block of wood, too.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Question for Webby and others--does the XD-9 have polygonal rifling form? THAT could be the genesis of the "outsized" groove diameter given in the early post.

My current 9mm pistols include 2 SIG-Sauers and 1 Ruger P-89X. All do very well with boolits sized @ .357"--cast of 92/6/2 alloy--and lubed with Javelina Alox/beeswax. Nothing magical or mysterious there.

The 40 S&W shares one trait with the 9mm--high operating pressures. Otherwise, it is more like the 45 ACP, with closer barrel and component tolerances and straight case walls--VERY unlike the 9mm.

[StarMetal]

Question for Webby and others--does the XD-9 have polygonal rifling form? THAT could be the genesis of the "outsized" groove diameter given in the early post.

My current 9mm pistols include 2 SIG-Sauers and 1 Ruger P-89X. All do very well with boolits sized @ .357"--cast of 92/6/2 alloy--and lubed with Javelina Alox/beeswax. Nothing magical or mysterious there.

The 40 S&W shares one trait with the 9mm--high operating pressures. Otherwise, it is more like the 45 ACP, with closer barrel and component tolerances and straight case walls--VERY unlike the 9mm.

Al,

The XD's have normal rifling.

Fellows, don't assume all 9mm barrels will take a fatter bullet to shoot then a .356. Case in point: I recently built a match upper in 9mm for my Gold Cup. I used a Kart 9mm match barrel. Guess what? The groove is .3535 and because it has a match chamber it won't chamber a round with a bullet muct larger then .355. It also won't chamber any brass that hasn't been trimmed for length either. Yeah I guess you could consider it kind of rare. 9mm bore and grooves are all over the place.

Joe

[webby4x4]

+1 for StarMetal - confirmed, the XD9 does have traditional rifling.

I just found out the hard way that my Lee 124 Grain LRN boolits won't chamber in my XD (the profile is larger than standard ball), but chambers just fine in my Ruger P89DC.

I guess I'm off to find another cast mold for my XD now... sigh.

Any suggestions? I was looking at the Lee 124 gn truncated cone (Part # 90402)... something that would work in both of my 9mm's, and something that would make a clean hole in the target paper. I don't have enough scratch for a Lyman/Ideal (and frankly, I like the Lee's better, especially with that handy-dandy built-in sprue plate handle!).

Rick

[StarMetal]

+1 for StarMetal - confirmed, the XD9 does have traditional rifling.

I just found out the hard way that my Lee 124 Grain LRN boolits won't chamber in my XD (the profile is larger than standard ball), but chambers just fine in my Ruger P89DC.

I guess I'm off to find another cast mold for my XD now... sigh.

Any suggestions? I was looking at the Lee 124 gn truncated cone (Part # 90402)... something that would work in both of my 9mm's, and something that would make a clean hole in the target paper. I don't have enough scratch for a Lyman/Ideal (and frankly, I like the Lee's better, especially with that handy-dandy built-in sprue plate handle!).

Rick

The RCBS version of the Lyman 124 TC bullet...great bullet.

Joe

[TAWILDCATT]

I roll crimp all my pistol cal.I think what really happend was he crimped and made a groove in bullet that let it move.it probably would not move more than what he had.the taper crimp is sort of squared off, as the roll crimp bites in.most times I have found in the 45 acp that there is not enuf crimp and the flare was not removed.the big problem also is every one that says you must not crimp as it headspaces on mouth.in thirty yrs of compitition I have roll crimped 45s and never
had a jam.had other problems.like failing to powder.but never a jam.I would not crimp FMJ.he may have over reacted to loose bullet,should have tried them and then decide.I started in 1937 to load 32/20 for a win73 with win tools.you dont resize you decap,recap, powder, and seat, and crimp. and shoot.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[03lover]

The one thing I see missing from all the suggestions is what type of brass you are using.

I have found the FC brass to be the thinnest and it can cause the problem of loose bullets even when everything else is as it should be. Of four 9mm sizing dies, not a one of them will produce a tight enough case to hold the bullet well, even when the expander is turned down so it doesn't expand at all.

With FC brass, I have to used the RCBS steel sizer and cast bullets .357" diameter to get a tight bullet.

I never have a problem with R-P 9mm brass or Winchester.