9mm and cast bullets ... again

[Harry O]

A few years ago, I cast up a bunch of 125gr cast RN bullets at Bhn 17 to 18 for my Browning P-35. The barrel was slugged at between 0.355" and 0.356" so I sized some of them at 0.356". Accuracy was terrible and the majority of the bullets keyholed.

Then I tried some at 0.357". Accuracy was a little bit better and fewer bullets keyholed. Then I tried some at 0.358". Accuracy was again a little bit better and only a few bullets keyholed -- slightly. As cast was a little over 0.358". I loaded up some of them. The cartridges looked strange, with a bulge where the bullet was and a case that necked down below it. But it chambered and shot. Accuracy was a little better (but not good enough to continue) and there were no obvious keyholes. I gave up on cast for 9mm's, but still have a couple of hundred unsized bullets laying around.

I recently got a different 9mm. A Star Super-B. It seems to be more accurate than the Browning with jacketed. I have a few of the 0.358" cartridges left over and tried cycling them through the gun. They would not chamber. It looks like the chamber is tighter for the Star than the Browning. I don't know if it will shoot better with cast, but it looks like I have the makings of an experiment again.

I have used 5.0gr of 231 and 7.0gr of HS-6 with jacketed in the past (also tried Unique, but it was poor so I abandoned it). Both are accurate. Any suggestions for a cast load?

[winelover]

You failed to mention which 125 RN mould you are using. I use the RCBS gas checked mould for my Browning HP. I use something similar to a #2 Alloy sized .356 (as cast boolits weigh about 123 grains before lubed and gas check is applied) Mine use to key hole until I setteled on 5.0 grs. of Unique over a CCI 500 small pistol primer. I use any brand of case available and frequently mix them! Accuracy is minute of 3" swinging steel disk @ 10 yds.

[jdowney]

I know this isn't really your question, but it sounds like the P35 has some significant barrel/chamber wear.... you say it will chamber rounds the Star will not, and that its less accurate with ball rounds too.

Some milsurp P35's are reputed to have significant wear due to having fired many rounds of SMG ammo - though I've only really seen anecdotal discussions of this.

Since slugging the barrel gave you reasonable numbers (both of mine also slug at 0.356"), it might be interesting to cast the chamber too and mic that.

[Harry O]

The mould is a Lyman 356242. The Browning was NIB when I bought it. It is not worn. Just a large chamber. The Star was in excellent condition (not NIB, but about 98%) when I bought it. I have not slugged the Star barrel yet.

My experience with cast has been that I find out the largest diameter bullet that will chamber easily and load that size. It has always been the most accurate from my tests. The barrel size seems to have very little to do with accuracy -- as long as the cast bullet is larger than the groove size.

BTW, I have a bunch of "submachine gun" 9mmx19 cartridges. They are listed on the box for the HK machine gun only. Got them in a trade. Have not fired them in anything yet. I have heard rumors both ways: (1) they are higher pressure and dangerous to fire in a handgun, and (2) they are no higher pressure than other 9mm;s, but they have locked in primers to keep them in place when being jossled by fully automatic fire. Until I know something for sure (as opposed to rumors), I won't be shooting them in anything.

[NickSS]

I load for several 9mms with cast boolits. The boolit I use is a lee truncated cone 120 gr and it shoots well in all my 9mms with moderate loads. I bought some 120 gr RN cast bullets that shoot OK but I get leading from them. I suspect it is the hard lube used. My most accurate 9mm with lead boolits is a taurus PT99 that I have had for over 20 years but a close second in a Browning HP clone made in Hungry.

[Leftoverdj]

Harry, your loads look hot and your alloy hard to me. Keyholing means bullet damage. 9mms have a very fast twist and 125 grain bullets have a very short bearing surface.

You indicate you have 231 and HS-6 on hand. I'd give 4 grains of 231 and 6 grains of HS-6 a try.

[jdowney]

The Browning was NIB when I bought it. It is not worn. Just a large chamber. The Star was in excellent condition (not NIB, but about 98%) when I bought it. I have not slugged the Star barrel yet.
My mistake then, I saw P35 and assumed milsurp. I've never heard of a large chamber in a Hi Power, but then I've never looked either. I may have to mic mine just for fun.

Not to hijack your thread....
What I've read about SMG ammo is that its basically +P+ with a ball round rather than a HP. Different purpose of course, but similar pressures. This again is anecdotal so I speak under correction if anyone has some actual pressure figures. Should be easy to tell about the primers, they'll just be crimped like military rifle ammo.

[EMC45]

I too am shooting a BHP and I size my bullets @ .358 and load with 3.5gr. Bullseye. They shoot AWESOME!

[bedwards]

I'm shooting 128 gr lrn .356 sized with 6gr Unique for a very pleasant accurate load. It works for both my Star Firestar Plus and XDm 9. The only problem I've had is watching the oal to make sure they feed well.

[Salmon-boy]

I'm loading for a BHP, and after slugging it to .357, have needed to do the same thing for the Lee 125 TL RN..

With the 125 2R though, there seems to be enough bearing surface that the boolit doesn't strip out.

[sleeper1428]

My 9mm is a Taurus PT99AF through which I've been shooting lead for well over 20 years without any indication of leading. I cast three different boolits for this pistol - a 122gr TC, a 122gr RN and a 115gr SWC, all three moulds by SAECO, and all castings are in Taracorp Magnum alloy equivalent (2-6-92) air cooled. All are sized to .356 and all are lubed with NRA formula 50/50 (White Label Lube at the present simply because it's good and reasonably priced). My normal load is 5gr of Bullseye and I generally try to keep my cases grouped into similar headstamps but if I'm in a hurry, I'll mix batches. Accuracy with all three of these boolits is limited only by my ability to hold down the 'shakes and quivers' that go along with old age. This is a comfortable load to shoot and I've seen no keyholing as far back as I can remember.

[motorcyclemac]

As for the sub gun 9mm ammo. I would highly suggest that you not feed that to your pistols. It most likely is high pressure loading. Take a look at the head stamp. Does it say IVI on it? If so...you will find that the brass is about twice as thick as normal 9mm. I have a bunch of the sub gun brass. You can't really reload it well as standard pistol loading pressures won't expand the cases. Oh...and they are a b!tch to resize. I believe it is made for longer barrels such as the UZI carbine. Thus it is loaded with SLOWer powder. YMMV..

Cheers
Mac.

[Harry O]

The machine gun 9mm ammo has an MM, then a 6, then a 43 on the base. Each mark is about 1/3 of the way around the primer. I doubt that it was made in June of 1943, but who knows. It does have a heavy crimp around the primer to keep it in, which I have read is a characteristic of machine gun ammo.

I have a couple of 30-06's that have way different sized chambers, too. One is a rebuilt Garand. The other is a Browning Safari-II BAR. Naturally, the Garand has the larger one. It is easy to feel the difference when sizing them. The Garand brass takes a LOT more effort. Tolerances are sometimes a bitch.

I will start sizing down some of the 356242 bullets until I find the size that chambers easily. Then I will load some up and try them.

[BruceB]

Gents;

My service in the Canadian Army was back in the days when the Inglis-made Browning Hi-power was my service pistol, and my sub-machine gun was the Sterling as made at Long Branch, near Toronto.

The ammunition was manufactured by Dominion Arsenals, often identified on headstamps as DA or DAQ. Canadian Industries Limited operated the plant that made military ammo, and it was excellent stuff. The IVI headstamp came into use to identify Industrie Valcartier Industries (GOTTA have that bi-lingualism, dontcha know???) after they took over the CIL ammo-making function. The quality of Canadian military ammunition suffered a very serious decline, and I think the lower quality holds true to the present day.

Anyway, in the early sixties and (so far as I'm aware) for many years prior to that time, there was NO special "sub-machine gun" 9mm ammunition made or issued in Canada. On days that we fired the SMG we also fired the pistol, and loaded both weapons from the same boxes and cases of ammunition. Some of the ammo had headstamps dating back to WW II, which after all was less than twenty years before, and since the cases may have been made long before their actual loading date, I can say that I saw plenty of 9mm that was also LOADED during WW II.

Canadian-issue 9mm brass was in common use among us handloaders (naturally, us being Canucks and having it available), and we didn't have to make any adjustments for case capacity....it was happily mixed-up with commercial brass from around the world.

I can't speak for the other 9mm-loading/using countries, but I do know that we used the same ammunition in both SMG and pistol.

[fredj338]

I'm shooting 128 gr lrn .356 sized with 6gr Unique for a very pleasant accurate load. It works for both my Star Firestar Plus and XDm 9. The only problem I've had is watching the oal to make sure they feed well.
Have you chronographed that load? That is well into +p territory as I get 1250fps w/ a 124grJHP o/ 6gr of Unique.
My BHP did NOT like the 125grRNL. I switched to a 124grLTC & 5gr of Unqiue, the gun will shoot ragged holes @ 15yds. Vel. is 1150fps+/-. I also think the bullet are a bit on the hard side, although youyr loads are running high enough pressure they should be obturating.

[bedwards]

No, I don't own a chrono. But the load is out of one of my reload books. I will have to go look it up now to make sure! I don't load unless I find the load in a couple my books.

[bedwards]

Have you chronographed that load? That is well into +p territory as I get 1250fps w/ a 124grJHP o/ 6gr of Unique.
My BHP did NOT like the 125grRNL. I switched to a 124grLTC & 5gr of Unqiue, the gun will shoot ragged holes @ 15yds. Vel. is 1150fps+/-. I also think the bullet are a bit on the hard side, although youyr loads are running high enough pressure they should be obturating.

Ok, I went and dug it out. It is a 125gr lrn on top of 6.0 gr Unique. The load came from a Alliant Powder Reloaders' Guide dated 1996. I did write on the load notes 128gr. So I dropped an extra boolit I had in the pan and weighed it. It was 125gr. Sorry guys, I'm embarrassed. [smilie=1: Maybe I got lucky, but leading was not a problem in either gun. I looked it up in the most recent Alliant guide and its not there. It shows 124gr L on top of 5.8gr Unique.

[ciPeterF]

One other thing I've noticed with my 9's and cast.. seating depth is critical, I've found that if you seat them right up almost (.002) to the lands my tumbling problems lessen hugely. Give that little sucker a bit more jump space and it just strips thru the barrel..

[9.3X62AL]

Harry, I concur that you may be running those castings a bit too fast. The BHP has a 1-10" twist rate, and you may be stripping softer alloys at higher pressures under those conditions. Also, you should fatten your expander spud as you fatten your boolits--most 9mm expander spuds are about .352"-.353" to accommodate jacketed .355" bullets. Run a .355" spud from the 38 Special into the 9mm case mouths for the .357"-.358" boolits, otherwise the case mouth may be sizing your boolits down--and creating another condition to cause boolit stripping in the bore. And LEADING, beaucoup leading.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my 9mm recipe that does good in most 9mms. The rcbs 115 or 120 roundnosed bullet (there both the same shaped nose) cast hard. At least 16bhn and perferably harder yet and it doesnt matter what velocity your using cast them hard! Size them to 357 or if you gun will run them 358. Lube with a soft lube. Javalina works fine but is smokey. Make sure when you seat them that you seat them staight in the case. With progressive presses and small bullets its easy to get sloppy with this and the 9mm wont tolerate it. Contrary to what some people will tell you the 9mm can be very accurate. My sti will shoot into 3/4 of an inch with ammo loaded like that. One thing ill add is the 9mm seems to be a caliber that guns tend to be more bullet sensitive then some others. there are very few 9mm bullets that are capable of shooting sub one in. 25 yard groups. Believe me ive tried many many of them in many guns. By far the best design ive found so far is the rcbs. It may not shoot well in every gun but it seems to shoot well in most of them. Theres lots of bullets that will get you into the 2 inch group range but if your looking for real accuracy theres not many.

[Harry O]

I seated some dummy cartridges with differently sized bullets in 9mm cases tonight and tried them in the gun. The "as cast" I originally tried (between 0.358" and 0.359") only went part way into the chamber before jamming.

I then sized and seated some of them at 0.358". Some went in, but most hung up just before being totally seated. Sometimes a push on the back of the slide would seat them, but they were fairly difficult to eject.

Next was 0.357". They seated and ejected easily. There is very little "necking down" below the bullet. I am going to try this size with powder. I am thinking of taking the HS-6 I have and loading some with about 15% less than what I use with jacketed bullets. I will check to see if it is accurate, seats OK, and if it has enough power to eject properly.

Depending on what happens, I will decide where to go from there.

[Nora]

A load that has treated me very well in 9mm has been a TL356-124-2R as cast (.358 ww air cooled) over 4.5gr Unique. (980 fps av, with 4" bbl) I realize you said Unique wasn't giving you good results, though with this boolit combo it has for me.