RCBS 44-250-K Bullet Mould

[What Cheer]

Shortly after RCBS introduced their 44-250-K mould, PN 82080, I purchased one.
Late last year I ordered a new one from Midway. When the mould arrived I put it on the shelf and did not check it closely until recently.

I was quite surprised to find the new one to be about .035 inch shorter than the old one.
The difference appears to be only in the base band.

The 1990s vintage measures about .805 inch OAL.
The current one measures about .770 inch OAL.

This makes the current one about the same OAL as the current Lyman 429421.

Does anyone know when RCBS made this change?

Thanks,

What Cheer

[GabbyM]

I'd say it's a quality control issue. Difference in depth setting on the cherry mill.
I'd cast a few bullets from it for inspection. You're lucky to get two cavities next to one another in the same blocks come out matched.

[mooman76]

They make minor changes all the time. Sometimes even not so minor. Allot of people here have given side by side examples or have requested specific moulds with specific specifications.

[waco]

ok...
so i hear all the time about lyman429421 with either square or round lube groove...
i just bought a 4 cav 429421 from this site.....it appears to be a sq groove.
is it pretty clear by lookin at the mold when it is a round groove, or do you need to cast some to tell?
what years did they make each mold?
BTW
if Mr. Kieth's design was so highly praised.....WHY DID THEY MESS WITH IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!![smilie=1:
cheers boys!:drinks:

[Hurricane]

Waco,

It should be easy to tell. Looking at the mould, the sq. grove has a flat bottom and the round grove has a curved bottom and is probably smaller than the sq. grove. As long as the groves are "big enough" to hold enough lube both will work well. I have tried 358477 and 358429 side by side with both type of grove and could find no difference with how they shoot.

Hurricane

[frank505]

I've got four of those molds with a total of 18 grains difference in weight. Called and talked to rcbs, was told that it would cost an extra 250 dollars to get them closer in weight(length). Guess I dont need their products. Besides they have changed to 45/255 Keith so many times, the first time they changed it, even Elmer Keith called them or so they said. I asked them why and what was your reply ot Mr. Keith. No answer. Pretty sad. Pioneer Products is my mold maker from now on, excellent quality and service and no aluminum junk.

[johnly]

I've got four of those molds with a total of 18 grains difference in weight. Called and talked to rcbs, was told that it would cost an extra 250 dollars to get them closer in weight(length). Guess I dont need their products. Besides they have changed to 45/255 Keith so many times, the first time they changed it, even Elmer Keith called them or so they said. I asked them why and what was your reply ot Mr. Keith. No answer. Pretty sad. Pioneer Products is my mold maker from now on, excellent quality and service and no aluminum junk.


Not to mention that you could purchase several Mountain Molds for that amount. There's a Lyman 358627 on ebay at is over $100 at the moment. I would like the mold, but I figure that I could order a custom mold for the same amount and there would be little risk that the bullets would drop under .358"

John

[MtGun44]

I think that RCBS and Lyman have been reacting to the criticism, much from folks
like those of us here, that complain (starting with Elmer himself) that the original
designs have been changed, for the worse.

All the info that I have been able to gather indicates that current Lyman production
Keith designs are far closer to the original than they were 20 or 30 years
ago. If you look at the early RCBS "KT" and "K" molds they were not very much
like real Keith designs. I put this down to ignorance in most cases. I have met
fairly experienced reloaders that called ALL semiwadcutters "Keith designs". The
44-250-K that I have is a bit longer than the 429421, and is about 20 years
old. It is an excellent boolit, works very well in all my .44s. The biggest difference
is the wide V type crimp groove rather than the 90 on one side and ~45 deg
on the other crimp groove on the Lyman 429421.

In any case, if the newest RCBS 44-250-K is almost identical to a proper
Lyman 429421, then this is good. Maybe we are all starting to really appreciate
the details of what Elmer intended to be his design and what he did not.

I think this site has educated a heck of a lot of folks that have never actually
studied the fine points of boolit design. Elmer's designs have worked well for
me and apparently for a lot of other folks, so having molds available that are
true to his intent is a great thing.

And YES - it is easy to see that the lube groove is flat bottomed if you have a
'square groove' Lyman Keith mold.

Bill

[hammerhead357]

I would think that the difference would be the operator of the milling machine and how they position the cherry in the machine. When I used to buy cutom matched pairs of moulds from Hensley & Gibbs Wayne would cut all of the cavities then measure all of the bullets and then surface grind both of the moulds to the shortest length of both molds.
I didn't know about RCBS changing the design that upset EK I have heard that Lyman did and EK was very P.O. about it and in a letter to H & G even refered to the people at Lyman as S.O.B.s... I got this one from Wayne Gibbs hemself several years ago.....Wes

[Firebird]

Lyman made two changes that ticked off Keith because they changed features that Keith designed to make his bullets work.
The first was to reduce the height of the first drive band above the crimp groove. They did it because of complaints that the Keith bullets wouldn't chamber properly in the customers revolvers - and Keith bullets don't chamber properly if the chamber throats are under-sized.. Of course the problem is with the gun, not the bullet, but Lyman's customers just knew that other bullets worked and the Keith bullet didn't. Keith wanted the tall front drive band so that it would help keep the bullet aligned through the cylinder/barrel gap and would also get the bullet rotating without stripping too much in the rifling.. By the time the rear band hits the rifling, the bullet should be spinning so the rear band can seal the gases and not strip at all. A tall front drive band also moves lead out of the cartridge case, leaving more room for powder.
The other big change was to the lube groove, changing from the wide flat bottomed groove to a semi-circular groove that is narrower and holds much less lube. Lyman did this so the bullet drops out of the mold easier, those square grooves Keith specified often cause the bullet to stick in the mold. Even H&G changed Keith's groove design a little (going to a smaller 75 degree angle instead of a straight 90 degree angle) so that the bullets would drop from the mold. Keith agreed with the H&G change as it did let the bullets drop much easier, but didn't reduce the capacity of the lube groove very much. He was very unhappy with the Lyman lube groove as he felt it didn't hold enough lube to prevent leading at the higher velocities the 357 and later 44 magnum were capable of.

[dwtim]

I bought one recently, but the cavity measures .805". I have not yet cast with it because I have a box of commercially made '421s that need shooting. So I don't know what it is as-cast, but I can't imagine it would be .770".

[frank505]

my brain hurts

[GLL]

frank:

A bit too much ! :) :)

Jerry

[Irascible]

Check out the pictures on this thread. It may help

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=47511&highlight=RCBS+250K

[MtGun44]

OK -

Just in case somebody out there doubts that Lyman has sold some
REALLY seriously wrong "versions" of the 429421,

Take a good look at this mold, marked 429421.

I'd say the front driving band is just a tad on the thin side compared
to what Elmer intended? [smilie=1:

Bill

[hammerhead357]

I bought an 8 cavity H & G mould from a gentleman in about 1984 that had the square 90 degree grease grooves and used it until about 1986 and it was a PITA to use. I finally ordered a custom matched pair of new H & G moulds that had the newer 75 degree grease grooves and it is a wonder to cast with. I unloaded the old version at a gunshow in Amarillo, Tx. and if memory serves me correctlly I got 150.00 for it. I was just glad I didn't have to cast with it any more......Wes