Lee Enfield bore size...what to do?

[35 Whelen]

I'm new here guys having just found this site. So far, I love it!! I hope I'm not posting in the wrong forum, but after reading the thread "what size", I thought I'd seek advise here.
Being absolutely addicted to shooting, I recently set up a 100 yd. range on my property. I have always wanted a "cast bullet" rifle, so I recently purchased a Savage Enfield, in .303 British of course. The 2 groove bore, in my opinion, is mint. It appears to shoot .310"-.312" jacketed bullets quite well especially considering the sloppy fit of the action to the forestock. So far I've not had a chance to shoot when the weather was good, (always overcast and windy here lately)but still my 5 shot groups will cluster 4 shots into 2" and less with most of the dispersion being vertical. (An indication to me that poor light is affecting my sight alignment on the target) This is also with new brass (not formed to the chamber of my rifle).
I've slugged the bore 3 or 4 times and it appears that the bore measures .301" and the grooves .3145"-.315"...kind of disappointing to me. I bought a Lee 312185 mould and I've ordered a .314" sizing die for my RCBS lubri-sizer as I couldn't find a .315" or .316". I loaded an unsized 311291 bullet that miked around .315" into a sized case and it chambered OK in the rifle.
My question is: Is it a hard and fast rule that bullets must be sized .001-.002" over groove diameter in order to shoot? If so, I suppose my only option is to lap the sizing die out .001-.002".
I use Alliant 2400 in my 308 with good success, so I'll likely try it in the 303 and I'd like to try IMR4198 also. My rifle alloy will be waterquenched wheelweights.
For what it's worth, I intend to use a case filler as outlined here :

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp (http://)

Does case filler help with regards to sizing diameter?

Thanks in advance!
35W

[sundog]

Three-Five-Dubya, glad you found us. Funny you should mention about a H&I larger than .314. Getting ready to do one myself this weekend, and if I screw it up get Buckshot to do me one. Anyway, here ya go:

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/hone_a_die/hone_a_die.htm

I did a .266 awhile back and it came out good. Tell us about your 35 Whelen. You do have one doncha? They are mighty fine cast boolit launchers. sundog

[Bullshop]

In your case you would likely be better off not quenching your boolits. You will get a better seal at the lower pressure's. Its never an exact science, but a searies of tweaks until you get the right combination.
I shoot some .224" boolits in a .224" groove barrel with straight ACWW at 2500 fps and they do perty dern good.
BIC/BS

[David R]

Go to group buys and find the fat 30 one. That should get ya goin. I am thinkin about getting it for my son's 7.65 arg with a .314 bore.

David

[BruceB]

The #4 Enfield rifles are intended to be stocked so that the barrel is free to move in an upward direction from its bearing point at the front of the fore-end.

You should NOT be able to move the fore-end upward against the barrel, which should be resting in the bottom of the fore-end's barrel groove. You SHOULD be able to move the fore-end away from the barrel in a downward direction with light thumb pressure up against the barrel, and you SHOULD be able to move the fore-end slightly sideways, an equal amount to both sides...meaning that the barrel when at rest is lying in contact with the middle of the fore-end groove with an equal amount of space to each side. This movement is not sloppiness, but is designed to minimize changes in point-of-impact as the barrel heats up in rapid fire.

One interesting effect of this bedding technique is that the #4s are noted for an ability to "compensate" (an accepted term in British and Commonwealth target-rifle circles) for variations in velocity of the service ammunition used in matches. Both higher-and lower-velocity rounds in a string of shots will form a group smaller than the vertical theoretical figure should be at longer ranges, like 600 yards or more. This is due to the varying-speed bullets exiting at different points in the muzzle's movement, and results in slower rounds departing at a slighter higher angle and thus "compensating" for the varying speed of the bullets in the string. This is a long-proven phenomenon in organizations using the #4 in long-range matches.

I did some long-range competition with the #4 out to 1000 yards, where the bull was a 29" black circle, much smaller than our US target's 36" bullseye for the Wimbledon, Leech Cup, and other 1000-yard matches. If one's score with the #4 at that range wasn't danged-near perfect, 48-50 of a possible 50 points, he'd find himself a LONG way from the top of the prize list. It was impressive to see such shooting with RANGE-ISSUED military ammunition and iron sights, even if the rifles received considerable match preparation work and selection.

[StarMetal]

BruceB,

My best friend and I, when we were young, use to mock the British rifles. His Dad, a WWII Marinve vet, said don't say bad things about those British rifles. They would surprise you at the 1000 yard range. We found out later they were not to be mocked. Lots and lots of technology and years put into those SMLE's.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Same sitch here with my No.1 Mk III, throat about .315" and groove (as best I can determine it) about .314". At .314" sizing, the 190 grain MM Fat Thirty started shooting pretty well. Be careful with fatter boolits and their effect on case neck diameters with boolits seated--they wouldn't clear from the 303 seater die, I have to use the 8 x 57 seater die to assemble the rounds. Kinda lame, but it works.

[Bret4207]

35- If that 311291 mics .315 I'd cast it out of straight WW, no heat treatment or quenching and try a load of between 10 and 13 gr Red Dot. No sizing needed. You'll never know till you it. I prefer to shoot my boolits as cast and use Lee's Liquid Frog Snot (alox) for a lube. For the GC try just seating with your fingers or just barley starting it down in the lubriciser.

[Bret4207]

BTW- Even though I'm a former Marine, if I had to choose a bolt action rifle to go into battle with it would be a #4 L-E.

[StarMetal]

I think I might choose a Finn39

Joe

[sundog]

NE Oklahoma is icy and cold today. I haven't even gone outside - dogs have but didn't stay long at all. The wind is blowing, too. Windchill very low. Not a very nice day, and more forecast for tomorrow and Monday. And we're still in a drought! I doubt if we got more than a quarter inch precip. Sooooo, I loaded some of my heat treat 314299s (sized prior to heat at .312) for some test loads in the 03 Sporter - hey, something to do. AND, I lapped a .314 H&I die. It's now large enough to lube without touching a .315 dropped 314299 and only cleaning the part line sides of the custom Lee mould I got from Jump (forget who's design it is). I still haven't shot that boolit, because I didn't have the die ready. Well, now I can. I got a bunch of them 'casted' (see other thread) and just need now to get them ready - now that I can. Tomorrow forecast is snow, and Monday like today. I guess this is a good time to spend at the bench. sundog

[35 Whelen]

Thanks for the advise, guys. I cast 30 out of both the Lee 90371 and my Ideal 311291. I'm a little pissed about the Lee as the bullets dropped out of the mould at about .312"!! I may contact them about returning it. Or maybe I'll just tumble-lube them and load them in my SKS. I believe it should throw bullets in the .315" range. The Ideal mould is dropping them a little out of round; .315" at the seam on the bullet where the blocks meet, and .314" 90° from the seam. I'm not worried about this as I shoot this bullet in my 308 and it shoots quite well. I figger sizing will straighten it out. What diameter bullets are you fellas getting from Lymans 314299?
One reason I water-quench is that I'm hopelessly impatient. I don't always "have time" to wait for bullets to cure so i can size and shoot them.
David R- What is "Group Buys"? Like i said I'm new here.
Thanks for the info, guys.

P.S.- sundog, My Whelen is home-made by me on a VZ24 action. So far, it's accounted for two nice bull elk. I've not fired any cast bullets in it yet as it's strictly an elk rifle.
35W

[sundog]

35W said, "I've not fired any cast bullets in it yet as it's strictly an elk rifle."

Huh? I built mine specifically for shooting an elk with a cast boolit - 358099 Improved, that is. Had the mould before the rifel got built. May not ever get there. If I don't, then the son has a nice rifle for his turn at it. If I do, well, the rifle and load is ready to go. And he'll end up with it anyway. Lucky kid. And he lives there.

I 'casted' half a tomato can full of 314299 last either Saturday or Sunday. I went and grabbed one just now, and it is an almost round .315 and almost round .303 on the shank. Alloy is WW/shot/tin and air cooled. sundog

[David R]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=5035

Go here and see. It will be a reality even if I have to honcho.

[35 Whelen]

Huh? I built mine specifically for shooting an elk with a cast boolit - 358099 Improved, that is. Had the mould before the rifel got built. May not ever get there. If I don't, then the son has a nice rifle for his turn at it. If I do, well, the rifle and load is ready to go. And he'll end up with it anyway. Lucky kid. And he lives there. sundog

Since I live in North Texas, elk hunting is something of a priveledge for me, much less getting a shot at a nice bull. For the last 2 years, my Dad and I have been fortunate enough to draw New Mexico bull tags. Two years ago I shot a nice 6x6 bull with my Whelen and 225 gr. Partitions (of whose terminal performance I was very disappointed). Last year I vowed to hunt with Dad and help him as he's 71 years old and he's never had a shot at a bull in 18 or so years of elk hunting. He poked one right in the ol' butthole with the Whelen and a 225 gr. "X" bullet. Penetrated all the way to the front of the right shoulder. The results are below.
I also have a 358009 mold and have cast some but haven't shot them yet.
35W

[waksupi]

I'm with Sundog. I built my .358 Winchester, specifically for cast bullets, and elk. I live where elk are in the front yard fairly often. It seems only those from out of the area, belive they need some ultramagnumzipperfatbodiedwhizzerjammer to kill elk.
Nope.
I'm shooting the Bator heavy, which is a clone of the 358009 pretty much. And I've also used the Bator light, at 237 gr, ready to dance. So far, I have had great results on deer, elk, and buffalo with the cast bullets. And, as far as I know, I was the first to test these bullets on deer, elk, and buffalo. I consider the factory jacketed bullets as inferior.
I understand your thinking, as you have no doubt read countless slick magazines over the years, telling you, that you need an elephant caliber to kill a deer, or an elk. Just ain't so.
I've killed a hell of a bunch of game over the years with cast bullets, and had shot several frieght trains full with jacketed, before. My conclusions? The cast kill as well if not better than jacketed. Put them where they are supposed to be, and they will do the job. Gut shoot anything, with any caliber or chambering, and you will have created your own problems.

[35 Whelen]

I'm with Sundog. I built my .358 Winchester, specifically for cast bullets, and elk. I live where elk are in the front yard fairly often. It seems only those from out of the area, belive they need some ultramagnumzipperfatbodiedwhizzerjammer to kill elk.
Nope.
I'm shooting the Bator heavy, which is a clone of the 358009 pretty much. And I've also used the Bator light, at 237 gr, ready to dance. So far, I have had great results on deer, elk, and buffalo with the cast bullets. And, as far as I know, I was the first to test these bullets on deer, elk, and buffalo. I consider the factory jacketed bullets as inferior.
I understand your thinking, as you have no doubt read countless slick magazines over the years, telling you, that you need an elephant caliber to kill a deer, or an elk. Just ain't so.
I've killed a hell of a bunch of game over the years with cast bullets, and had shot several frieght trains full with jacketed, before. My conclusions? The cast kill as well if not better than jacketed. Put them where they are supposed to be, and they will do the job. Gut shoot anything, with any caliber or chambering, and you will have created your own problems.

Well, I'd hardly consider the 35 Whelen an "ultramagnumzipperfatbodiedwhizzerjammer ". For what it's worth, of all the centerfire rifles I own, and that'd be around 15 or so, NONE of them is a magnum in any way, shape, form, or name.

I'm glad you have elk in your front yard, but I don't. I put in for draws then bite my nails hoping for a tag. Then I drive several hundred miles dragging livestock, tack, feed, hay, gear, etc. to hunt. Then at night I toss and turn agonizing over where to hunt. Then I spend hours on the back of a mule to get to a hunting area. You get the picture. As such, I'll use what has already worked for me.

I've used cast bullets for game starting with deer and going down in size. In fact, my daughter, starting at the age of 11 years, killed 4 whitetail in 4 consecutive seasons with 4 shots. All from my homemade 308 scout rifle firing a 311291 hollowpoint over 22 grs. of 2400.

So, please don't stereotype me Mr. I'vekilledmoregamethanyoumountainman. [smilie=l:
35W
P.S.- The only "slick magazines" I read are Handloader and Rifle.

[carpetman]

35Whelen--belated welcome and what town in North Central texas? Im originally from Wichita Falls.

[waksupi]

Well, I'd hardly consider the 35 Whelen an "ultramagnumzipperfatbodiedwhizzerjammer ". For what it's worth, of all the centerfire rifles I own, and that'd be around 15 or so, NONE of them is a magnum in any way, shape, form, or name.

I'm glad you have elk in your front yard, but I don't. I put in for draws then bite my nails hoping for a tag. Then I drive several hundred miles dragging livestock, tack, feed, hay, gear, etc. to hunt. Then at night I toss and turn agonizing over where to hunt. Then I spend hours on the back of a mule to get to a hunting area. You get the picture. As such, I'll use what has already worked for me.

I've used cast bullets for game starting with deer and going down in size. In fact, my daughter, starting at the age of 11 years, killed 4 whitetail in 4 consecutive seasons with 4 shots. All from my homemade 308 scout rifle firing a 311291 hollowpoint over 22 grs. of 2400.

So, please don't stereotype me Mr. I'vekilledmoregamethanyoumountainman. [smilie=l:
35W
P.S.- The only "slick magazines" I read are Handloader and Rifle.

Not stereotyping at all, just stating my experiences. My statements on the slick magazines relates to the mindless conversations I hear at gunshows, usually young shooters, all hot to follow the latest gimmick.

And I certainly don't consider the .35 Whelen a ultramagnumzipperfatbodiedwhizzerjammer
I think it is one of the most sensible chamberings. I refer to those short fat cased things they have come up with over the last few years.
Where the heck do you guys find the little smiley things? All I see are the little ones right under this message box.

[35 Whelen]

35Whelen--belated welcome and what town in North Central texas? Im originally from Wichita Falls.

Thanks for the welcome carpetman. I was born in Wichita Falls and have lived here all but a couple of years of my life. Last October, my wife, kids, and I moved out in the country southwest of Iowa Park which is 15 or so miles west of Wichita Falls.
35W

[Buckshot]

Where the heck do you guys find the little smiley things? All I see are the little ones right under this message box.[/QUOTE]

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[KCSO]

In 1972-3 I was preparing a #4 for the Canadian Matches and somewhere I have the bedding instructions I got from Elwood Epps when I got my Parker Hale sights. I will try and find them and post them if anyone is interested. This covers Bedding, headspace sling and sights as recommended by one of the best known 303 men. My 303 when set up would regularly beat Garands out to 500 yards, which was the farthest I had opportunity to shoot. Bruce has it down pat on the barrel my notes would be the details and the how to do its.

[KCSO]

Bruce
Here's the Smelly revenge.

A few years ago I was invited to build a rifle for the 2300 yard
matches in England. The only requirement was that it would be able to
beat a Lee Enfield. What a joke! Since my rifles held all the 1000 yard
records at the time I felt confident when I told them if I didn't beat
every Enfield on the line they wouldn't have to pay for the rifle. I
should have checked the record book before shooting off my mouth .It
would have saved me a rifle. There is something very unique to the
Enfield that has been explained to me and I still don't understand
exactly what it is. It has to do with the two piece stock and the
harmonics plus the flex of the joint makes every thing come together at
2300 yards. You Lee Enfield lovers check the records of the 2300yard
matches at Bisley. It will lift your spirits so high you will be able
to laugh at us Magnum shooters. Don't ask me how a rifle with a 300 foot
mid range trajectory can consistantly beat out our high scoring Mags.

Gale McMillan

[35 Whelen]

In 1972-3 I was preparing a #4 for the Canadian Matches and somewhere I have the bedding instructions I got from Elwood Epps when I got my Parker Hale sights. I will try and find them and post them if anyone is interested. This covers Bedding, headspace sling and sights as recommended by one of the best known 303 men. My 303 when set up would regularly beat Garands out to 500 yards, which was the farthest I had opportunity to shoot. Bruce has it down pat on the barrel my notes would be the details and the how to do its.

KCSO,
I would be VERY interested in these bedding instructions for Enfields. I did some browsing and found this site: http://ellwoodepps.com/ (http://)

I assume this is Mr. Elwoods sporting goods store in Orillia, Ontario. The website has a snail mailing address, e-mail address and phone number.

Do you actually know Mr. Elwood? I know his name only from my Dad's 1969 (I think) Handloaders Digest in which an article by Mr. Epps on the 303 Epps Improved was published. I think it would be fantastic to have these bedding instructions!
Thanks,
35W

[Bret4207]

I think I saw an obit. for Mr Epps in the past year or 2 in the Rifleman.

[floodgate]

I think I saw an obit. for Mr Epps in the past year or 2 in the Rifleman.

Bret:

Yes, sadly, he's gone. A friend of mine in Canada sent me a copy of one of his catalogs - lots of great stuff, including every imagineable wildcat on the .303 British case. Canada's equivalent of our "Papa" Ackley. They are missed....

floodgate