Tell me about compression dies

[jonk]

Mainly, where do you get them? I've got a trapdoor springfield that I shoot black out of occasionally, but am not compressing as of now. I'd be happy to do so but it's not an item I am familiar with. I know the theory behind compressing just don't have the die.

Up to now my best results were using a duplex load with smokeless match- about 3-4 gr of SR4759 under enough FFG through a drop tube to reach my bullet seat depth. And for some guns like my Mauser 71, Portuguese Kropatschek, etc., that's fine; they are made to a bit higher pressure standard. But it makes me nervous about the trapdoor.

[Ballard4590]

Hi Jonk
In Track of the Wolf catalog #16 they have on page #424 a Black Powder compression die. This die has a Lee die body ,and uses stems that are sold for a couple bucks apiece. The same die body is used for there neck expanding stems.I've used this setup and it works great. I also shoot alot of the older black powder guns, and if you have access to a lathe you can turn neck expander stems any diameter,also the stems are floating in the die body ,and are self centering. Hope this helps

[BPCR Bill]

jonk,
Like Ballard said, you can make them up if you have the tooling, or another source is Buffalo Arms, or Montana Precision Swageing. The idea behind them is to compress the powder load to an "Ideal" height that will afford the best accuracy. It allows you to get more powder in the case, and compress it to a height that will allow the boolit to seat right at the card wad on top of the powder. It is something that you will have to play with to get a load that shoots best out of your rifle. I myself do not mechanically compress loads. I use the drop tube, and then "Settle" the powder by holding the charged cases against a vibratory tumbler after seating the wad. Then I finger seat the boolit in the case. That works best for me and my rifles, others do the die compression. Some shooters just compress the loads with the boolit in a seating die. I would be cautious about any duplex loads in an original Trapdoor.

Regards,
Bill

[Dale53]

Lyman's cast bullet handbook has pressure data on duplexing for 45/70.

The Lee bodied compression die works extremely well. You would do well to get a copy of Spence Wolf's book which is now called "The Book" on the Trapdoor. It has LOTS of invaluable information for ALL BPCR shooters:

http://www.the45-70book.com/books

Here is the story on Lee's custom dies from Wolf's Western Traders (started by Spence Wolf and Pat Wolf - Spence died and Pat later remarried to Lee Stone and carry on the tradition. These are VERY good people):

http://www.the45-70book.com/Dies

I have bought various needed "stuff" from Pat and can recommend her and Lee without reservation. If you have a lathe, you can make your own custom expanders and compression dies from the critical dimensions given in the book (excellent drawings).

Dale53

[Don McDowell]

All a compression die does is mash the powder down to the level that you can seat a bullet without undue force on that bullet.
Several things will work for a compression die. For instance the expander die from several die sets will work to compress the powder .
If you have the Lyman M die you already have about as good as any compression die.

[montana_charlie]

If your three die set is from Lee, Track of the Wolf has powder compression plugs, and custom-size neck expanders...all of which are used in the expander die.
If your die set is from Lyman, RCBS, or Redding, Buffalo Arms has compression plugs and expander plugs for those.

OR...

If you have a Lyman (or RCBS) set, you can make a powder compression plug (to use in the expander die) from a 3 inch long 9/16-18 bolt. Just grind the bottom inch down to .450" and add a nut to lock it in position.

CM

[jonk]

Thanks all. I have the Lee dies so the Track of the Wolf option sounds best.

Yes, I have duplexed on my original trapdoor and it should be safe, but it just rubs me the wrong way. I may try a duplex with FFFFG and FFG over the smokeless. But again, for the later bolt actions, it doesn't worry me so much.

[13Echo]

Go to the sites Dale 53 listed and buy the book and the Lee dies and parts directly from Miss Pat and Lee. They make them and like he says they are VERY good people.

Jerry Liles

[fgd135]

Is it safe to compress a duplex load??
I'd always heard that compressing a duplex load could break up the kernels of the smokeless powder, resulting in a faster burning rate and spiked pressures...is this correct?
Fwiw, I use a compression die all the time with black powder (only) loads, it works great. Mine is one I got from Buffalo Arms, with a custom diameter stem.

[Boerrancher]

I don't own a compression die but I do own a Lyman 310 die set for 45-70, and the expander die works wonders for a compression die as well, and since I don't resize my 45-70 cases anyway, so it is a simple process to prime, add the powder and compress and expand at the same time. A Lyman M die will do the same.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Lead pot]

Just take expander plug and grind it flat and grind off the bell if you have an extra one or use the .452 plug grind it flat.

[NickSS]

I use a compression die in some of my rifles ammo. I load for several and have found that different amounts of compression from almost none to around .4 inch are required by different powder lots and the particular rifle I am shooting. The rifle that I use a compression die in mostly is my 40-65 high wall. The rifle never started shooting as well as I wanted it to until I bought a compression plug for my M die. Now I put 62 gr of FFG in the case and compress it sufficiently to seat a 400 gr Postel boolit. This now gives me nice 1 to 1.25 moa groups out to 500 meters.

[R.Clem]

I am using a 300 Win Mag seating die with a 1/4" x 28 tpi bolt that has the corners ground off the hex head so it will fit into the mouth of the case. You can also use an allen head bolt with out any grinding.
Take the seater plug out and screw the bolt into the bottom of the die and put a lock-nut on the top to keep it from moving after you have it adjusted.

[omgb]

I have used duplex loads in a trapdoor for years without a problem. I use 3 grains of RL7 and 65 grains of GOEX 2F under a 520 gran LBT slug sized at .460. I compress the charge 1/8" and use a .030 Walters fiber wad over the powder. This load is accurte and shoots very clean.

[Grapeshot]

Mainly, where do you get them? I've got a trapdoor springfield that I shoot black out of occasionally, but am not compressing as of now. I'd be happy to do so but it's not an item I am familiar with. I know the theory behind compressing just don't have the die.

Up to now my best results were using a duplex load with smokeless match- about 3-4 gr of SR4759 under enough FFG through a drop tube to reach my bullet seat depth. And for some guns like my Mauser 71, Portuguese Kropatschek, etc., that's fine; they are made to a bit higher pressure standard. But it makes me nervous about the trapdoor.

Alright, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been using Wolf's loading techniques on all my black powder loading for a few years now. I use one of the Montana Swaging compression dies but I also open the flash hole up to 3/32nds of an inch and use Federal or Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primers. You need the hole opened up to alow the flash or fire,to penatrate the powder colunm and ignite the packed powder.

By the way, the flash from the Winchester and Federal magnum primers have a longer burn time that helps start the compressed powder to ignite consistantly.

Duplex loads using 10 - 15 grains of FFFFg, (4Fg), and the rest of the charge weight in FFg will also give a cleaner burn.

[13Echo]

Your results may vary. I haven't found a need to drill out flasholes for my Trapdoors or the .45-90 Sharps. Fed 215m seem to work very well in my Trapdoor, but the .45-90 seems to prefer Rem 91/2. None the less if you're just starting with a Trapdoor use Wolf's methods. They work and work well in the old soldiers.

Jerry Liles

[RMulhern]

:killingpc:holysheep:groner:[smilie=b::violin:

[montana_charlie]

:killingpc:holysheep:groner:[smilie=b::violin:
Aw...you always say that.