Maximum shooting distance for Elk with this load?

[superior]

2 days ago while driving on a logging trail here in the Oregon coast range, a mature Elk cow and a spike bull stepped out in front of my truck. I quickly shut down the engine to study them. The spike bull was still as big as a small horse. After watching them for about 30 seconds, they noticed me and quickly trotted off.
At that moment I began to wonder : If it had been Elk season and I'd been in a good shooting position ( in a stand, for example) would the load I had with me work on an elk satisfactorily? The shot was about 40 yards and I had my Enfield Jungle carbine stoked with Lyman 314299 soft nose-water dropped boolits, sitting on 19 grains of 2400. I'm not sure of the velocity but I don't think my 18" barrel would make a difference due to the fast burning nature of the powder. When elk season arrives, should I load hotter with the same powder or should I use a slower powder?:coffee:

[runfiverun]

if it was a deer i wouldn't have heitated.
but elk ain't deer, you need to penetrate them in the right place. and preferrably break a shoulder bone.
test your setup with some cow bones etc.. of course my buddies said my 7 mauser and 139 hornady's werent enough.
guess drt wasn't enough for them.

[jhalcott]

Is that a starting load of 2400? A 200 grain bullet at 1500fps SEEMS a bit slow for elk,BUT cast bullets do not react the same as jacketed. I would NOT purposely hunt with it, I wouldn't refuse to use it in a survival situation though! It might take a while for the ELK to die a,d you'd likely have some tracking to do also. I always test my loads on phone books and gallon milk jugs to get SOME idea what to expect. It's not perfect but does give me an idea of the bullets potential. A phone book in front of a couple milk jugs and another book behind ,all taped together will show you IF your bullet will penetrate straight or veer out the side. It also gives you an idea of the exit wound.

[superior]

It's not a starting load. I normally use 16 grains for target shooting. I believe 21 grains would be max according to Ed Harris's sticky on cast boolits for military rifles. He does recommend it as a deer load though and like riverfun said, "elk aint deer". I was just wondering if my load would work well for elk if the shot were limited to 50 yards. Ed harris says the deer load runs from 18-21 grains.

[waksupi]

If you are going to shoot elk with cast, I recommend a larger caliber, shooting at least 2000 fps. I have killed one elk with a .30 caliber, but the range was at about 5 yards in the neck.

[Old Ironsights]

In a Survival situation you probably could make it work... especially if you are willing to track &/or take head shots.

Hell, a properly loaded .357 is "sufficient" in those circulstances... it certainly beats the heck out of a lot older loadings that killed a lot of elk.

That said, I wouldn't use either except in a survival situation.

That's why god created the .45-70.

[superior]

I just can't help but thinking of how the British took nearly every animal in Africa with the venerable .303! I'm almost sure the elephants had to be taken with solids, but I might be wrong about that. I'll bet at close range (50 yards or under), there is a good powder- load combination that will help a 200gr soft nose cast boolit do the job with authority on elk. It obviously wouldn't be as effective as my 338 winmag but with the right placement, should be able to make sure he doesn't get far. Has anyone here hunted elk with a 303 or 308 loaded with cast boolits? After all, the 303 is quite poular up in Canada where they drop moose with them all the time and with cast boolits to boot!

[Screwbolts]

I have not hunted Elk with the 303 and cast boolitz, but I have killed a large Holstein steer with one. (I now use my rook rifle with 38 spec. wad cutters, for dispatching Large Steers)

The load was 17 gr of SR4759, 1450FPS (Crony) the boolit was a 311284GC of air cooled WW alloy, the shot was 35 yards, and hit perfectly 2" above the eyes, as usual its feet hit its belly before it started to drop. After skinning, my brother and I noted the boolit had exited the back of the head threw the big vertebrae, it then came out the side of the second vertebrae, and started it's traveling down the neck muscles, HMMMMMM how far did it go? We opened the neck up for nearly 12" and it was still going. HMMMM. We asked the butcher to keep an eye out for it and to make note of actual meat damage. The next time we saw the butcher he had boolit on the window sill. and a big smile. He found the bullet bent up against the spline of the Spatula, This mild load had traveled 36+ inches after it came out the bone of the second neck vertabrae, and stopped up against bone. Meat damage was nill, very minor trimming, adding to burger.

If I was you, I would metplat your boolit and aim for the pulmonary pumper area and you will be golden. It will be back straps on the grill!


How far would I shot your load? As far as I could and keep it in a paper plate!!! :-)
Ken
Central NY

[MT Gianni]

Test the penetration and bullet upset with a bullet box or 5 milk jugs of water in a row. Then compare it to non softnose and larger calibers. Add in a flat nosed bullet.

[superior]

Wow! Punching through a cow skull and ripping through 3 feet of backbone is pretty darned impressive to me! Especially with a cast boolit at only 1450fps! I've heard similar testimony regarding moose with the 303. So far, my only penetration test was with 160,185and 200 gr boolits shooting through a truck rim at 55 yards with both my softnose and non softnose-water dropped. The idea of straight air cooled appeals to me as well since I'm thinking the boolits will deform well enough on an animal as large as elk especially if contact with bone is made. My softpoints contain 1/4 oz. of pure lead all the way to the first driving band. I'm hoping for Nosler Partition type performance. I water drop them because only the base of the boolit actually hardens. I think more penetration tests are in order but I can get the 200 grainers up to 2000 fps with other powders, That's alot of chili pepper! My wife and I were both surprised when I shot through the truck rim. After all, these were supposed to be mild TARGET loads. The soft nose should eliminate the need for a meplat and maybe straight ww- aircooled will perform well without the need for a soft nose. Time to get out the milk jugs!

[krag35]

311284's out of my Krag @ 1700 fps or so have turned the last couple of Elk they ran into into dinner. None were Bang/Flop's, but within 100yds or so they all laid down for a dirt nap.

[matm0702]

Hi Superior

You may be interested in this test. Was working on paper patching for my 8mm
today using a Lee 185 grain bullet which drops at .314. The paper patching test was a flop Minute of berm accuracy. The same bullet in my No#4 mk 1 shoots 1.5 inches at 50 yds over 38 grains of H4350. One bullet was used for penetration test on 3 two inch thick phone books stuck together. Entry hole was slightly bigger than bullet diameter. Exit hole on the back of the third book was large enough for me to insert my fore finger. Bullets were made of acww of approx 11bhn per a lee hardness tester. Estimated velocity was 2200 fps at 4 yards ( was using hornady 196 grain bullet data). Should have tried the book test with the enfield which I estimate the velocity to be around 1800-1900 fps. Not sure about elk but I'm building this load for deer and hogs. As in any hunting situation, Placement of shot is key. Hope my test results help your situation. BTW the bullet penetrated the ground 12 inches past the back of the phone book. Dug about 6 inches and coudn't find the bullet. Will bring a shovel next time.

Mike

[superior]

Yes, The Lee 185 is a boolit that I make soft noses out of as well. I intend for that to be my deer load. Hey krag35... awesome job! What alloy were you using? How far were the shots? Did the boolit exit?
matm0702- That boolit will make for an excellent hog round.

[Larry Gibson]

Superior

First elk I killed was a cow up out of Siletz back in '68 using a 30-30. That load would probably do alright if the placement was perfect and you can track. I'd suggest going to a medium or slow burning powder and upping the velocity to around 2000 fps. Then I'd have no compulsion against shooting an elk out to 100 yards with it given a good heart shot from the side or front. I've done so with that same bullet out of the '06 at 2100 fps. Cow was down and dead after traveling 50-60 yards. I was using a different alloy back then but your softened nose ones should work (a test as MT Gianni suggests would be good). I currently just use WWs + 2% tin AC'd as it works about as good as any at 2000 fps or so.

Larry Gibson

[superior]

Yeah, I've been to Siletz...I live about 50 miles northeast of there in the same coast range. I'm gonna slow down the burn rate on the powder and crank up the velocity to at least 2000pfs. I have no doubt that the 314299 will shoot right through an elk broadside. My softnoses should kill better ( or should I say faster?") than a harder nosed boolit. :|

[Screwbolts]

"I have no doubt that the 314299 will shoot right through an elk broadside. My softnoses should kill better ( or should I say faster?") than a harder nosed boolit. "

Imho, I don't know if your soft points will go threw an elk, what your soft points may do is, use allot of your 2000 FPS speed energy to make a wide metplat, now if your SN uses to much energy to convert to a wide metplat it will just stop moving. End of penitraion!

If I were to use a 30 cal for Elk I would use the biggest metplat/flatpoint that would cycle threw the action and shoot to my accuracy standard. If the bullet didn't cycle smoothly threw the action, then I would load it in the chamber and follow it with the next best in the magazine. Either way my first shot would be a big Metplat resonably hard bullet. You will probably not need a second shot, so follow it with what ever gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.

If you drive your SP with 1/4 oz pure lead at 2000, you will probably loose all the soft point shortly after impact and then have a sub 100 grain shank with a ragged metplat to drive threw. JMO

Ken
CNY

[atr]

I think you are on thin ice with that load, that range and that animal.
IF you were dead sure of hitting a vital spot on the elk, then I might have chanced it myself...Ive shot that same load often....otherwise I would not have taken the shot.

I dont think you CAN go hotter with that powder....you could easily go hotter with 3031

[superior]

Yes, Screwbolts...I think you have an excellent point. 1/4 oz pure lead nose would be fine for deer but for elk, the air-cooled ww sounds like a better plan to ensure complete penetration.
My goal is a broadside shot with reasonable boolit deformation and an exit wound. I'f I need to track it, I want a good blood trail.

[krag35]

Yes, The Lee 185 is a boolit that I make soft noses out of as well. I intend for that to be my deer load. Hey krag35... awesome job! What alloy were you using? How far were the shots? Did the boolit exit?
matm0702- That boolit will make for an excellent hog round.
I shoot ACWW that when sized, the top punch leaves a small ( 1/16th or so ) flat spot on the nose. I have killed 3 Elk with this rifle, one head shot and the others were thru the chest, all bullets exited. All were shot at under 50 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah, I've been to Siletz...I live about 50 miles northeast of there in the same coast range. I'm gonna slow down the burn rate on the powder and crank up the velocity to at least 2000pfs. I have no doubt that the 314299 will shoot right through an elk broadside. My softnoses should kill better ( or should I say faster?") than a harder nosed boolit. :|

I'm not sure about all the "thin ice" and monsterous "penetration" necessary for an elk but in that neck of the woulds a whole lot of elk have been killed with 30-30s for years. A friend who passed on some years back used to hunt/poach elk in the Tillamook burn during it's heyday. He used a Savage .303 with a 20" barrel which shot factory Winchestor 190s right at 1850 fps (I chronographed 5 of them in '75 for him). His reloads with the 190 Silver Tipm mangages about 40 fps more. He gave me the last of his Silver Tips he had left (I still have about 100 of them left). I wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk in the coastal mountains with those STs loaded in my 24" barreled M94AE 30-30 to 1900-2000 fps. A good expanding 200 gr cast bullet like yours at 2000 fps will do the trick if you put the bullet in the right place. Of course one must know the limitations and not exceed them.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

"A friend who passed on some years back used to hunt/poach elk in the Tillamook burn during it's heyday." quote by L Gibson

I don't much cotton to poachers and poachers buddies.

[superior]

Yes..190 grains at 1900-2000 in the good old 30-30... I plan to reduce the pure lead content of my soft nose to 1/8 oz. ( easily done by cutting a stick-on ww in half) That should produce a smaller deformation area and preserve penetration power. I could even go smaller on the soft nose, deforming just the very tip.

[Larry Gibson]

"A friend who passed on some years back used to hunt/poach elk in the Tillamook burn during it's heyday." quote by L Gibson

I don't much cotton to poachers and poachers buddies.

Before one criticises such perhaps one should walk in the other's shooes. You didn't grow up in the depression helping to feed not only your own family but some other families. I dare say, after watching him gut and skin several animals that he made more and better use of the animal and wasted a whole lot less meet that most "sportsman" I've seen the last 20 years. He only "poached" what was necessary and he quit when he no longer needed to poach. The Game officers back then turned an eye away back then if it was necessary. Perhaps you should live through tough times and then perhaps you'd understand.

That gentleman was perhaps the most ardent sportsman I know. He was a USFS timber cruiser when I knew him and did more to assist the game officers than any modern "sportsman" I know to catch "poachers" who wantenly wasted animals or sold them. I guess you don't
cotten" to me either then because when I was a kid I was a deer shooting fool. We had numerous agricultural permits to shoot deer out of the orchards. I was always hauling deer on my horse to the poorer folks in the area. I probably killed 2-3 deer per permit.

The local game officer (Oregon State Police) caught me with a deer draped over my horse in June one time. He calmly asked me what I was going to do with it (he had watched me shoot and gut it in the orchard). I showed him the permit. He said if I turned it in it would be ground up into hamburger and given to the poor anyways so I might as well ride over to such and such poor family and give it to them. You'd be surprised how much good info that game officer got on real "poachers" from all the poor folks in the area. He was a very effective game officer dealing with those who shot game animals out of season for fun or "sport", wasted or sold game animals. He also made numerous criminal arrest based on information the people, poor and otherwise, gave him. He was an excellent LEO who knew how to balance enforcement with justice.

A matter of perspective during different times I guess.

BTW; I later became an Oregon State Policeman and deputy sheriff and enforced the game laws. Back then many LEOs considered the just application of the law to be more important than the litteral enforcement of the law. Sadly, times have changed.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

"A matter of perspective during different times I guess." quote by L Gibson

I don't agree. You are only 5 years older than me, so you didn't see any different times than I did, both my parents lived through the Great Depression. As far as poachers I don't care if they are cops or cops buddies, there was one just busted in Poplar, Mt, chief of police helped his son shoot 4 moose, then the deputy at Alzada that was poaching with his Wyoming buddies, finally caught them with something like 70 mule deer and pronghorn racks, I think they should be charged badge or not!

[carpetman]

Larry Gibson--Was your Oregon State Policeman and deputy when you enforced game laws during the time,before or after the time you shot the elk out of season, without a tag with an air rifle--not to kill it but harassment of game animal. ? Would seem all the laws that were broken on that deal would constitute a felony and your tenure as game enforcement officer would have ended or never happened had you been caught..

[swheeler]

Ray; couldn't have been an air rifle, remember, he came over on the Mayflower! All he had was a sling shot, a mold for shot and his Oehler chronograph. He's really the one that supplied the turkeys for everybody at the first Thanksgiving. Now on a serious note, I don't think law breakers should be treated any different just because they wear a badge, no matter what kind of a "spin" they try to put on it. .02

[wiljen]

Man did this thread get Hijacked. From what distance is this load good for to the relative merits of Poachers. Think we could stick with the topic a tad closer?

[testhop]

LARRY
it looks as if the old times may be comming back.
then we will see how long the morals hold out .
as for me if i have to proach so be it

[Larry Gibson]

Carpetman

Was some time after I was out of law enforcement. How about the time I hit a cow elk in the ass with the left front bfender of my PU. I suppose that was "hunting with the aid of a motor vehicle"? Or perhaps we should have cited the elk for "obstructing traffic"? Then considering she ran off how about "leaving the scene of an accident?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

swheeler

Not talking about me living through hard times, read the post. I make no apologies for my friend nor for myself. No one was wearing a badge at the time and you and I hadn't been born yet.

The point to the post, which you and carpetman seem to have missed is he the .303 Savage shooting 190 gr bullet at 1850 fps or so was considered quite an elk cartridge at one time. That was in responding to superior's question about his similar cast bullet load being "adequate" for elk. Wiljen is correct, you might do better sticking to the subject of the thread. If you a personal problem with me the PM is your option.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

LARRY
it looks as if the old times may be comming back.
then we will see how long the morals hold out .
as for me if i have to proach so be it

Sir, your point is well taken. Thank you.

Larry Gibson