Casting & loading for rifles.

[HABCAN]

Warnings for Newbies.

You are entering into a world where variables rule! I am sorry to tell you that you will never get ‘the answer’ to your questions from those more experienced in this art. Because each rifle is an individual having its own particular quirks, your questions will always be answered with “xxx so-and-so works for ME” which will be a good suggestion that you may try but may not be ‘the answer’ for YOU.

Let’s see what these variables are, within ONE caliber choice of ONE mould.
1. Alloy and temperature of your casting metal.
2. Whether you air cool, water drop, or heat treat your castings.
3. Whether you load them into cases as-cast, or size them in any of a half-dozen diameters.
4. Whether or not you apply a gas check, and what material that gas check is made from.
5. What lube you choose for your boolit.
6. Maybe you choose to paper patch it.
7. If paper patching, whether or not you lube that patch.
8. Do you sort your boolits by weight? To what tolerance?

Then we progress to the other components.
1. What brand of cartridge case? Full-length sized or neck sized? Annealed?
2. What brand of primer? Standard or Magnum? Maybe a ‘pistol’ primer?
3. What brand, type, and amount of powder? Dippered, measure-thrown, or weighed?
4. What seating depth of boolit? What overall length of the cartridge?

And the rifle itself.
1. What is the condition of the bore? Have you slugged that bore and accurately measured the results at bore and groove? Did you make a cast of your chamber and measure IT?
2. What is the throat diameter, and does it differ greatly from the bore/groove size?
3. How long is that throat/leade between chamber mouth and rifling?
4. Is your rifle stock properly bedded?
5. Are all the action and scope-mount screws properly tightened?

Testing a boolit/load at the Range.
1. Do you know how to properly shoot from the bench to remove the human variables as much as possible? Are you unhurried and relaxed?
2. If using iron sights, do you know how to compensate for variables in light when clouds pass over that affect your sight picture?
3. If using a scope, is it parallax-free for the distance you are shooting?
4. Do you have a suitable target for your testing, and are you recording data on it for reference?
5. Do you chronograph your load? What is its Velocity and Extreme Spread?

So I hope you can see that when you ask questions, the well-intentioned answers you get will NEVER really solve YOUR problem, but will only relate the experiences of those who have been at this game a little longer than you when they had SIMILAR problems with THEIR rifles. Further, without the above information you are ‘shooting in the dark’. Realize that if you change any one variable it will affect all the others. Sorry, but the search can be endless! But don’t be discouraged: luck enters into this Art, LOL! Just set your own performance goals and fiddle with the variables until you achieve them.

[runfiverun]

yep:
start with the basics.
my ruger and your remington probably don't agree on nothing.
neither do my redding dies and your lee/rcbs set have anything to say to one another.

[TREERAT]

I think this would be a good sticky, for new people like me to find. thanks

[Shiloh]

Nice post HABCAN!!

Yes there are lots of variable. Try not to be intimidated by this. There is a lot to learn and what works for one fellow may not give you the same results. Learn, shoot, be safe, and have fun.

Shiloh

[bingo]

Wanted to add that only changing 1 variable at a time is prefered. Also keep pen and paper handy,I can not remember what I had for lunch today much less how many grains of power I used etc. etc.

Want to thank all for everything I am relearning and all the new cool stuff.

Bingo

[yodar]

While I like Habcan's post from a scientific standpoint (I wuz a scientist oncet!) it's likely to discourage a newbie.

I have a program available if the list wants it called BULLET which tells you what load to use to achieve a selected maximum velocity. All my pistol and rifle loads are configured from data from that program. My Guideline to follow: Pistol:don't exceed 1000 fps Rifle : don't exceed 2000 fps

My rule of thumb is never exceed 2000 fps for rifle and add a pound of antimony rich magnum shot to my wheel weight alloy

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1229/6309647/12253703/233048100.jpg

and it has served me well . I have loaded non gas-checked 7.62 x 25 in my CZ52 to
1252 fps with such an alloy and the SKS has not complained or mistreated me with lead EVER.

yodar

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry, but I disagree.

Based on years of shooting cast bullets I've found that it is not to hard to cast good cast bullets for rifles without much difficulty, certainly well within the relm of most reloaders with minimal experience. I do not believe at all that it is difficult and requires anywhere near all the considerations listed. Simple science? Yes. Difficult to the point we must get anal about it and believe a certain amount of witchcraft is involved? Hardly.

Simply following the directions in the Lyman manuals will suffice to produce excellent and accurate cast bullet rifle loads. Normal loading procedures for cast bullets (also outlined in the Lyman manuals) will also suffice. Some pretty good accuracy is easily obtained with several standard loads commonly known. As an example I recently posted some pictures of a 8x57 load with bullets cast from a 6 cavity GB mould. Ordinary alloy with no selection other than a visual for defects as I was seating the GCs (oh my, I even used my own home made GCs and they shot every bit as good as Hornady's) and lubing them in a 450. Load was a standard of 28 gr of 4895 under the 190 gr bullets with a 1/2 gr dacron filler. Cases were 1939 Turk berdan primed, only neck sized, no pre-selection or match prepping, no neck turning, none of the things mentioned being done. Work up the load....not hardly, just went with a standard load. The results were/are consistent 1.5" ten shot groups at 100 yards from my yugo M24/47 w/6x scope.

I also did the same with the neighbors 2 SMLEs. I do the same with 30-30s, '06 and .308s all the time. Do "variables" rule? I think not. Good casting and loading practices overcome witchcrft and the commonly held belief that shooting cast bullets in a rifle is difficult every time. I think entirely too much "thought" process goes into shooting cast bullets from rifles and that scares many "newbies and wannabe's" away. It also overly complicates matters for the rest of us.

Larry Gibson

[mpmarty]

+1 on the above. Recipes, from reliable sources followed correctly avoid many frustrations in our hobby. Variations on these basic themes can and do result in truly exceptional loads in SOME rifles. On the other hand, some rifles won't shoot well regardless of what load you use. Don't believe me? I had two Remington 788s in 22/250 and one was a tack driver while the other was 4" at a hundred yards with factory and handloads. Turns out the bad one had a defective crown job from the factory. Cut 250 thousandths of an inch off the muzzle and re crowned with a 3/8" ball bearing and valve lapping compound and it became a tack driver just like its brother. When my 16" barreled 7.62 Nato Saiga outshoots my 24" Savage bolt gun at a hundred yards I know I've found the load for the Saiga. Now I'm working to find one for the Savage. The Saiga seems to like heavy boolits while the Savage seems to lean towards lighter ones.

[runfiverun]

larry: you know the casting and shooting is the easy part.
but doing both well takes patience,and practice.
and that 2" groups aren't a standard group size /nor an acceptable one either,for anyone with the patience and practice.
it isn't magic but you gotta get creative for the final steps that makes your gun,alloy,load to be a better than an inch one, at distance,everyday,on demand.

[Bret4207]

I think I have to agree with HABCAN on the list of variables. What I didn't see mentioned is that not all those variables ALWAYS work against each other in every gun. Being aware of the variables and being intimidated by them are two different things. It's not that hard to get a decent shooting rifle load. I find it easier than handguns.

[HABCAN]

Sorry you did not like my contribution, Larry. I do agree with what you say. SOMETIMES it IS just that easy. I just wanted to point out some of the things a newbie should consider or find out before abandoning the search if his first trial fails. But how many have queried "I used the Lyman load and all I get is leading and minute-of-berm. Why?" I was trying to head that off.

[Larry Gibson]

I did not say I didn't like your contribution HABCAN, what I said was i disagree with it. The disagreement is with;

"Warnings for Newbies.

You are entering into a world where variables rule! I am sorry to tell you that you will never get ‘the answer’ to your questions from those more experienced in this art."

My point is "variables rule" only when you step outside of established methods. Casting and loading such bullets successfully is not an "art" where only a few have an ability. It is a science that can be easily done by most anyone. If one has a rifle that will shoot accurately and follows the methods and uses the componants in Lyman's manuals then it is not difficult to load cast bullets in rifles that shoot accurately. The "variables" come into play when one goes outside those methods with unknown alloys, home made lubes or uses the wrong lube, wrong disign bullet, drives the bullet too fast, uses the wrong powder, etc. Simply following proven methods and componants as outlined in the Lyman manual and using "proven loads' such as "the load" and a couple others will, with very very few exceptions, produce very good results accuracy wise.

Caveat; the shooter must also be able to shoot. It is always surprising how many can't shoot accurately because they have not yet learned how to. Given an accurate rifle with good loads they will not shoot nearly as well as others who have learned how to shoot, practice and maintain a certain level of shooting proficiency. I hear and read too often discussions of the 'variables and what may be mechanically wrong with the rifle when the simple fact is the problem lies with the shooter and a lack of shooting ability.

How many of you have time and again shot an excellent group and then let someone else shoot the same rifle and the same ammo to only see a much worse group fired by them? Then after some instruction and coaching during a couple more groups their groups then begin to shrink down where they should be. If someone has an accurate rifle and can't shoot it with standard cast bullet loads them I'm of the opinion it isn't any of the variables mentioned, it is the shooter. There in lies the worst "variable" of all. Thus to tell newbies and wannabe's that all their woes will come from the mechanical aspects to me is incorrect. The fact is; good loads shoot good, poor shooters shoot poor.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

larry: you know the casting and shooting is the easy part.
but doing both well takes patience,and practice.
and that 2" groups aren't a standard group size /nor an acceptable one either,for anyone with the patience and practice.
it isn't magic but you gotta get creative for the final steps that makes your gun,alloy,load to be a better than an inch one, at distance,everyday,on demand.

I agree that what you say applies to those of us who are at an "advanced" level, so to speak, in this science. The point I made was anyone, following standard methods, using standard componants and having some shooting ability can load very acceptable and quite accurate cast bullet loads for rifles. Those of us who seek "perfection" need pay attention to the "variables" HABCAN listis. Very good accuracy and "perfection" are two different levels of accuracy.

Over the years I have helped many "newbies and wannabe's" load and shoot cast bullets in rifles well. Many were having problems because they were off on tangents using componants, loads or techniques that were ill advised and outside of normal practices. Many others just hadn't learned good marksmanship skills and just needed some coaching, instruction and practice to do well. With some others it was a combination of both. Only in rare instances was there anything mechanically wrong with the rifle or scope.

Larry Gibson

[HABCAN]

Larry, in no way do we disagree. Thank you for your comments.

[GrayTech]

Good post and thread. One must keep in mind that required (and acceptable) levels of accuracy vary by individual.
While each gun has a unique " personality", time tested methods do tend to avoid many of the obvious issues.
There are in fact even more variables within each of those listed, for example, "proper" bedding methods can be different for different rifles. Due to unique harmonics some barrels like to be free floated, others only partially, still others only shoot well with varying amounts of pressure at some point, and all this may vary according to load etc.
Truth be told, when in pursuit of sub MOA groups at longer range it may be necessary to explore a great many variables to achieve such precision. In the end the extent to which we go is determined by our expectations and our determination.

[Catshooter]

There are certainly enough variables to go around.

By far, the biggest is the nut behind the trigger. Especially when it comes to the short guns. Or take away the scope and bench. Oh my.


Cat

[MBTcustom]

I don't think this is all that hard or daunting of a task to make an unfamiliar rifle shoot well to hunting standards of accuracy (1.5"-2" seems reasonable).
I suppose everybody has their way of doing things, but this is mine:

New rifle (meaning new to the buyer) bought at a gunshow:
Field strip. Clean. Reassemble and set all torques on all screws correctly. (gee that was fun).
Find the cartridge in the reloading books and read about it. (gee that was interesting)
Follow this link and see what your twist rate is: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?235414-Common-Cartridge-Rifle-Twist-Rate-Reference-List
Figure out what speed is easily attained with cast by calculating RPM to stay right in the 120,000-140,000 RPM range. (read this thread for more info: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart)
Push a fishing sinker down your barrel and see what your groove diameter is, and record it in your reloading manual on the page that has data for that cartridge.
Do a little research on bullet molds that others have had success with in your make and model of rifle, and shamlessly bum some samples from one of the generous people on this board (don't be a jerk. Pay for shipping at least.)
Buy some gas checks from one of the venders listed at the top of the page, like Grafs & Sons.
Buy some 2500+ lube from the White Label Lube company http://www.lsstuff.com/
Buy three powders that your reloading manuel recomends and that others have had success with (this is outlined in the sticky written by your humble servant and may help you to read when you have time: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158805-Just-a-few-tips-for-new-rifle-casters)
Load up some test cartridges and go shoot. Record the bullet and powder that gives you the best results and stick with it for a while (yes, that means you have to go shoot. A heavy cross to bear to be sure, but somebody's got to do it. LOL!)

Once you have the bullet dialed in that you like for accuracy and hunting, go buy a good quality mold from one of our custom makers (I highly recomend NOE or Accurate molds:
http://noebulletmoulds.com/
http://www.accuratemolds.com/)

Once your shiny new mold shows up, use COWW + 2% tin alloy and cast up a bunch of good ones and go start having fun!


Now to me, I've done this so many times (actually I made a business out of it) it seems like no big deal at all to me. Yeah, it's not as easy as going down to Wally world and telling the kid behind the counter to "gimme a box of bullets fer ma raffle", but honestly that's the fun of it!

Seems pretty easy to me, and you learn a lot in the process, and there's a pretty good chance you'll make a few lifelong friends along the way! Good times!

[.22-10-45]

Thats what makes cast bullet shooting so interesting..I got bored just reaching into a box of factory made jacketed bullets..balancing them on a case mouth & pulling a lever. Spent 5 years trying to duplicate best jacketed match bullet accuracy at 100yds with a .22 Hornet..and did it! Then take out original Remington rolling block .40-70 Mid-Range for first time with never tried before Brooks Creedmoor & Swiss 1 1/2 & shot sub 1" groups at 100yds with it's vernier tang & windage adj. sprit level globe front! You just never know..but you'll never get bored!

[Hannibal]

My first thought once I realized the dates on the original posts in this thread was, 'Why on earth did someone dredge this old relic up?'.
As I re-read it, I have realized I'm glad they did. :cool:

[GrayTech]

My first thought once I realized the dates on the original posts in this thread was, 'Why on earth did someone dredge this old relic up?'.
As I re-read it, I have realized I'm glad they did. :cool:
Um, that would have been me. Didn't notice the date. It popped up in my feed for some reason. Glad it did though.