45-70+bp?

[fido]

I took my new Uberti 1874 Sharps Long Range out for the first time yesterday. What a hoot.

I am new to black powder and have a few questions.

I loaded some up with 65g of Goex ff, with cereal box wad about .1" lube another wad and a 405 HB lee bullet, WW at .458. I was compressing with the press with a round rod between the flaring die and bottom wad.

I was getting no leading and the fowling was staying soft. I was running a wet patch with water soluble cutting oil/ water between shots.

I was surprised how bad the fowling was. I’m just checking in to see if I’m on starting off on the right foot.

I am dropping the powder through about 2’ aluminum arrow shaft.

How much compression should I be doing? I don’t think I was compressing enough because I was feeling some resistance seating the bullet, for about the last .05" then it seemed like ether the powder was compressing more or the lube was passing the bottom wad.

I am just a little hesitant on the compressing part. I am trying to seat the bullets out to touch the rifling which leaves the first lube groove + .05” sticking out of the case.
I am using Felix lube on the bullets and a mixture black powder ball lube with bees wax to harden it up a little for the lube cookie.
Can I not size the cases if I seat into the lands or does one still need to neck size?
How much can I compress?

Thanks for any help.
Stephen

[Don McDowell]

65 grs of 2f with the 405 bullet is a bit lite on the powder. Lite powder charges with bp are generally a good recipe for heavy fouling. If you're drop tubing 70 grs of 2f you should be able to seat that 405 gr bullet without compressing, provided you aren't putting to much junk in the case between the powder and bullet.
I don't know what's in felix lube, but if it isn't about half beeswax with some natural oils like olive oil, lanolin etc, its probably going to contribute greatly to the fouling problem.
The bullet probably would benefit from being at least .459 diameter and .460 might be better yet.

[fido]

Thanks Don
Flelix lube off the sight, not the best in this situation but all I have for now.
Just loaded a few with no cookie just a card wad, probley could do without the card?

After dropping 70g It leaves me .325 space.
I have to compress another .335 to get all of the bullet in. That’s up to and past the top lube groove. .660 of the bullet in the case. Does this sound normal?

I’m thinking my bullet diameter is ok there, was no lead just lots of black.

[northmn]

If this is your first experience with BP you may be getting pretty near the normal fouling. Lube is important. Lube keeps it soft, but does not neccessarily prevent BP fouling. Some use Fed 215 or other mag type rifle primers which may help reduce fouling. Others like Swiss powders. You should not have to wipe between shots. Most use a card with no grese cookie with a good bullet and get by. WW cases hold more powder than Rem or Fed cases. There are a few variables. I like to neck size only for a SS.

Northmn

[cajun shooter]

The Felix lube recipe that uses mineral oil is not for BP and will cause a lot of gunk fouling. His lube recipe is great for smokeless but not BP. Either buy a BP lube or make one before you do any more shooting. Beeswax, sheepstallow, lanolin makes a lube that works for one of many. Pick one and see what works for you. I think when you have the correct lube you will see a big difference. Later David

[montana_charlie]

You can get a powder compression plug that fits in your neck expander die. Using that, you can set your compression to any depth you need.
Do all of your compressing with only the powder (and a wad) in the case.
Compressing with the bullet can fatten it so much it won't chamber, and compressing with a lube cookie in the case can bulge an external ring on the case wall...which can also prevent chambering.

I agree with Don that your Pedersoli barrel will like a .460" bullet.

CM

[fido]

Thanks guys, yes I am going to have to make up a BP lube. I did a quick slug test with a bullet but they were a little difficult to move in the barrel. I will have to get a few led sinkers to do a proper test. What I saw was .458.

The ones I loaded up last night I loaded with almost all of the brg. area in the case. About .200" jump. Compressed and sat the bullets to touch the wad.

What is the most common home made lube recipe people are using? I have seen a few using bees wax+ lanolin.
Hears the long range.
Enjoy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/sdeering/DSC00190.jpg

Stephen

[montana_charlie]

Nice picture, but you have the tang sight mounted backward. The long leg of the base should point forward.
CM

[Don McDowell]

It really doesn't matter which way the leg of the base faces, as long as the aperature is where its comfortable to the shooter, and there's room enough for his thumb over the wrist of the stock........

[13Echo]

The Lee 405gr HB is a copy of the 1873 Govt bullet. It is usually shot without wads because of the hollowbase. For most uses it carries plenty of lube in its ample lube grooves. If you don't have a compression die get one. Compressing the powder with the bullet is, as already pointed out, a bad idea. If you want to use Felix lube substitute canola, or peanut or corn oil for the baby oil and it will work fine. A simple BP lube is 1:1 of beeswax and canola, or peanut, or corn, or neetsfoot oil. Melt it over a double boiler.

BP generally does best with soft alloys (I use 30:1 lead:tin) proper compression of the charge, a realtively heavy bullet,and a proper lube.

For your 405 Lee a carbine load I've used in Trapdoor Springfields with success is 59gr Goex FFg, compressed enough to allow seating the bullet to cover all grease grooves with a frim crimp over the front band. With that light load the crimp, at least in a Trapdoor, seems necessary.

Jerry Liles

[August]

Compress just enough to seat the bullet without distorting it.

[fido]

Thanks for all the help fellas.

Yes I had the sight apart because as it was, one could not see the sight at the end of the barrel. The detent seemed to be in the wrong spot. It was tilted too far back about 15 deg.. I ground a small portion off the detent spring and shimmed the other end to change the detent position to have the venire 90 deg to the barrel. I thought I would try reversing the mount as to get it farther from my eye. I may switch it around, just experimenting. Actually come to think of it this may be why my cleaning rod rubs on the base of venire when cleaning.

Well I loaded some up short now I will load some touching the rifling and compare.
Thanks again
Stephen

[Pathfinder1cav]

Fido FWIW, I use that bullet in a .45-70 Pedersoli Bodine RB for the 220 Y. chickens in Silhouette matches (was good for 7 of 10 a month ago). No wad, just dump in the powder directly from a powder measure into a fire formed case- I use Swiss 1.5 or 2f, the amount just needs to be enough to allow the bullet to be hand seated so that it sits on the powder & the front drive band is 1/2 exposed (about 62-63 grs.), then a light taper crimp to hold it in. Straight wheel weights work OK, but adding 10% pure lead might be better if you use Goex. I believe that the Uberti's are Pedersoli barreled actions, so should be similar. You need a heavier bullet (525-550 grs.) beyond 300 yds.
They are fun to shoot 1000 or more, but you will need a little better Soule sight with good wind adjustment. Have fun & make smoke! ...Dennis
PS.. I assume that you are wiping or using a blow tube between shots? My wife & I shot the same gun in a match this weekend (apx. 100 shots) wiping with a damp patch- never cleaned until we got home- 3 wet patches, a dry & an oil patch.. zero lead..

[jerrold]

You will find as many lube recipes as there are BP shooters.Here in the east I use one consisting of 4 parts bees wax, 2 parts lanolin and 2 parts Crisco. All measures are liquid measures. I wipe after each shot, for consistency.
This works well for me. I do not claim to be an authority on the subject. It gives me more time to concentrate on the other aspects of the load. :coffee:

[montana_charlie]

Yes I had the sight apart because as it was, one could not see the sight at the end of the barrel. The detent seemed to be in the wrong spot. It was tilted too far back about 15 deg.. I ground a small portion off the detent spring and shimmed the other end to change the detent position to have the venire 90 deg to the barrel. I thought I would try reversing the mount as to get it farther from my eye. I may switch it around, just experimenting.
It's unlikely that the detent was wrong...but it's your eyes looking at it, so that's what counts.
As for modifications, that is a good sight to experiment with. It is a 'give-away' quality sight, and you will probably be looking for a better one before too long.

CM

[NickSS]

I have a similar rifle and have used the same bullet you are. I have read all the advice given above and it is hard to improve upon it. However, I will make a couple of additional points. First all guns are not equal. So you may have to experiment with different powder charges and lubes to get the accuracy you want. The 400 gr bullet you have is good to 3 to 4 hundred yards but then wind drift will cause you problems. A 500 to 550 gr bullet is needed for longer ranges.

I started compressing powder with the bullet and accuracy was ok in some of my rifles but not good in others. I bought a compression plug from Buffalo Arms and experimented. I load for three 45-70s and exch likes a slightly different amount of compression. So experiment and find what your rifle likes. When you have the right compression fouling actually decreases. But as you noticed there is a fair amount anyway. One last piece of advice, get a blow tube and blow down your barrel between shots. The higher the humidity the less you blow and the lower the more you need to blow. The moisture in your breath will keep the fouling soft and the next shot will blow it out. If it gets dry you will experience leading and inaccuracy.

[John Boy]

Fido, there are more lubes for BP than you can make and shoot in a long time.
Here's about a hundred to choose from:
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=450.0
Might want to start with Gatofeo's that he found in a 1943 American Rifleman. Supposed to be a kissing cousin of SPG

[fido]

Thanks guys. I have 50 loaded up, now all I need is some free time to try them out.
I have most loaded with 65g goex 2f compressed with a home made die, just enough to seat the bullet up to the powder and touch the rifling.

Stephen

[RMulhern]

And despite what anyone tells you....BLOW TUBES SUCK!! If you want top notch dependable accuracy.....wiping betwixt shots is the best way to go!! OK maybe for hunting....but if you're trying to hit a 20" ten ring from 1000 yards....BTs won't cut it!!

[fido]

Sounds good. The first time out i was wiping, but more cleaning I think. I was running 2 very tight moose milk paches through. I think the most run a not so tight pach through to remove some of the fowling but not all. Does that sound close?

Thansk for all the help fellas.
Stephen

[Pathfinder1cav]

Fido... Yes, I use a nylon brush on the end of a flexible rod & push one slightly dampened (50/50 prestone or 10% water souluable cutting oil) 2" arsenal patch (you can buy them from Buffalo Arms) through once- pushes out 98% of the fouling & tends to keep the bore cooler when laying out in the sun on the 1000 yd. line. Good luck, it is challenging finding the 10 ring consitently at those distances... Dennis

[willyboy]

Blow tubes don't suck,unless you're doing it backwards.Your breath merely softens the fouling makeing it easier to clean.

[RMulhern]

Blow tubes don't suck,unless you're doing it backwards.Your breath merely softens the fouling makeing it easier to clean.

willyboy

Yeah....try that BT when it's about 105F and 5% humidity and see what you get!!:brokenima[smilie=1: