AA2495 Not Surplus

[Jeffreytooker]

I am shooting 41.4 gr of AA2495 in a 308W with a 168 SMK. I have shot hotter loads to near max and cases still come out very sootie. The cases are Lapua and have been reloaded several times. The cases have not been anealed since new. Has anyone had sootie cases with AA2495, or has some advice?

Jeffrey Tooker

[Lloyd Smale]

Im loading 45.5 with a 147 ball bullet and its not sooty with those loads. theres not much differnce in aa2495 h4895 and imr4895. More of a lot thing then anything else. I take left overs from all three jugs and mix them together and burn it up with ball blasting ammo for the ar10.

[felix]

Advise would be to change ignition speed, while keeping the same accuracy level (same ES, same V). Do this with a primer change first, powder speed second, seating depth last. Use various primer/powder combinations before changing seating depth. Or, change seating depth first to touch lands using same load for a looksee only. The objective is to keep the projectile in the case neck a little longer so the projectile obturates enough to cause zero neck clearance. ... felix

The reason for saying looksee only is because of the prevalent rapid throat wear. We want to eliminate that parameter from the variables, especially for an auto type of gun. It is much easier to find a clean load when we are shooting a tight-necked BR gun. 39 grains of 4064 using that same bullet is one of the standard loads for this latter kind of gun.

[StarMetal]

Lloyd is right. I found the three 4895's to be closer together then I imagined. In loading a 175 gr cast bullet for my 32 Special I used all three powders. I use a Belding&Mull powder measure and the first clue I found was the measure threw dang near the same amount of all three powders to the same scale weight. The conclusive proof for me what shooting the loads over the chrono. Would you believe all three powders were single digits difference in velocity? I believe these powders to be close as possible. Now IMR and Accurate 4895/2495 look about the same. Hodgdon's doesn't. H4895 is a lighter color and kernels are different. I editied this to say I forgot to add surplus 4895 in with this group and tests, so that's four different versions of 4895.

Joe

[Jeffreytooker]

[ The conclusive proof for me what shooting the loads over the chrono. Would you believe all three powders were single digits difference in velocity? I believe these powders to be close as possible. Now IMR and Accurate 4895/2495 look about the same. Joe[/QUOTE]


Gentlemen:

After reading all three posts I may have a plan. I have some IMR 4895. Speer Manual #9 1974 lists 308W, 165 gr bullet, IMR4895, 43.5 gr Max. I will load about 43 gr. Same bullet, case, and seating depth. Quick Load says 43.5 gr ~ 49.2K PSI. This is way less than the 60K max. If the load burns clean then it is the 2495 powder which is the problem. I suspect the powder is OK. The primers are Winchester and the bullets are 168 SMK. I believe it may be the Lapua brass. It has been loaded 7-10 times and I have found that a collet neck sizer will not always size the necks properly. I have not re anealed the case necks. The rifle is a Savage 12BVSS. The chamber neck is .348". Loaded round neck is .333". This should leave .0075" on each side of the neck. This seems to be a bit loose to me. I will load several of the above rounds and go to the range when I can. I will post results.

Jeffrey Tooker

[Jeffreytooker]

Gentlemen:

After posting my last reply I did a bit of searching and found the specs for a SAAMI standard 308 Win reamer. The link is listed below. They are in the last post and quoted below.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39337

<<<The standard .308 Winchester reamer has a .4738" bolt face diameter, .4551" shoulder diameter, .3442" neck diameter .310" freebore diameter x .090" freebore length with a 1 degree 45 minute leade.>>>

The neck seems entirley too large. I will continue working on this issue and get back to you when I have more information.

Jeffrey Tooker

[felix]

That is way too much neck slop, Jeffrey, especially for such a sharp ogive target design. For S&G, shoot some cowboy condoms, more like those for the lever guns. Use the 110 varmint bullet too, the one with the flat faced hollow point. The idea is to see if a flatter configuration will force a more concentric entry into the leade. If it does without too much doubt via the target, then a re-chamber should be done. If re-chambering for your bolt gun, go for no more than 0.001 total neck clearance, and with enough freebore to seat the target bullet barely touching the lands. ... felix

[Jeffreytooker]

Felix:

I agree the neck is very sloppy. I have another (A&B) 308 Win barrel for the Savage. I will check it out, but the neck in it is liable to be just as bad. I also agree with neck clearance. I would like to move away from 308 Win. We shoot only paper to a max of 300 Meters. I have a 223 Rem 9 twist original Savage barrel that I think I will put back in place of the 308 win barrel. I will see if I can get it to shoot. I do not like recoil.

This brings up a project that I have been thinking about. As I said we shoot paper to 300 Meters. I dearly love 222 Rem rifles. I have an old (1958?) 722 in 222 Rem it shoots well. I would like to have a barrel made for my Savage in 222. My question is about bullet weight for 300 Meters. Is it necessary to go to 60+ grain bullets to shoot 300 Meters with a 222? I know 222's usually shoot lighter bullets. I have run Quickload for a 222 with a 69 gr bullet and 2900 FPS is doable. Are there reasons why this would not work?

Jeffrey Tooker

[StarMetal]

Felix:

I agree the neck is very sloppy. I have another (A&B) 308 Win barrel for the Savage. I will check it out, but the neck in it is liable to be just as bad. I also agree with neck clearance. I would like to move away from 308 Win. We shoot only paper to a max of 300 Meters. I have a 223 Rem 9 twist original Savage barrel that I think I will put back in place of the 308 win barrel. I will see if I can get it to shoot. I do not like recoil.

This brings up a project that I have been thinking about. As I said we shoot paper to 300 Meters. I dearly love 222 Rem rifles. I have an old (1958?) 722 in 222 Rem it shoots well. I would like to have a barrel made for my Savage in 222. My question is about bullet weight for 300 Meters. Is it necessary to go to 60+ grain bullets to shoot 300 Meters with a 222? I know 222's usually shoot lighter bullets. I have run Quickload for a 222 with a 69 gr bullet and 2900 FPS is doable. Are there reasons why this would not work?

Jeffrey Tooker

Jeff,

I know this is work, but you might try forming 308 brass from 30-06. That way you will get a thicker neck and it may be thick enough that you may be able to turn to a desired specification.

Joe

[felix]

Yes, Jeffery, it's doable. The Aussies have done it back in the early 80's, but they were using a bigger case, I think, using 80, or slightly more, grainers. It seems the most accurate combinations, for group shooting, shoot 3200-3300 fps and this is independent of bore size. This will put you into the 22-250 class and is more commensurate with your current bolt configuration. If I am not mistaken, the twist is/was something like 7.5 for these projectiles to cut through the conditions mo'-betta' there. Look around on the Benchrest Central pages for more info. Hopefully, some Aussie with real time experience will chime in. I don't think these guys were BR oriented, but more into what you are thinking in terms of application. That is, they used varmint-ready rigs. ... felix

[felix]

Yes, Joe, I saw that, but the kicker was that he couldn't handle recoil. I'm in his boat as well. If I can't see the bullet impact through the scope, the recoil is just too much for me. Might as well shoot charging beer cans, and get the thrill of bouncing them into the air for said visual contact. ... felix

[StarMetal]

He might try a 6mm PPC or something in that area.

Joe

[felix]

Good idea, Joe, but that cartridge is one finicky sob. It's very narrow in powder choice to get that magic acceleration curve. The gun would have to be made for it, in other words. Actually, a nicely built 243 would fair him better using average off-the-shelf components. On the other hand, what accuracy does he desire? I would think his bolt configuration is more suited to the 6BR rather than the PPC, anyway, if we are talking about that similar case capacity. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Good idea, Joe, but that cartridge is one finicky sob. It's very narrow in powder choice to get that magic acceleration curve. The gun would have to be made for it, in other words. Actually, a nicely built 243 would fair him better using average off-the-shelf components. On the other hand, what accuracy does he desire? I would think his bolt configuration is more suited to the 6BR rather than the PPC, anyway, if we are talking about that similar case capacity. ... felix

Yeah I was going to say 6BR. I'll tell you Felix, some of those 6.5 Grendel boys are shooting "hole" at 300 yards easy.

Joe

[felix]

Recoil is going up, and maybe too far. The powder selection for the 25,26,27 bores would be considerably easier too, most especially using a sliding bolt which gives a larger effective chamber. What powder is used for the military version? ... felix

[StarMetal]

Recoil is going up, and maybe too far. The powder selection for the 25,26,27 bores would be considerably easier too, most especially using a sliding bolt which gives a larger effective chamber. What powder is used for the military version? ... felix

Military version of the 6.5 Grendel? There isn't one, the military isn't using it. Some of the powders used to reload it are 4895, W748, BLC-2, Accurate 2520, Viht N140, Viht N54, Varget, Viht N135, Accurate 2460, Benchmark, Western TAC , Viht N530, and H335...that comes from the Alexander Arms Company.

Joe

[Jeffreytooker]

I know this is work, but you might try forming 308 brass from 30-06. That way you will get a thicker neck and it may be thick enough that you may be able to turn to a desired specification.

Joe[/QUOTE]

Joe:

I made a 308 case from 30-06. With bullet in case neck is about .339". Thank you for the suggestion. It is still too small. I looked up neck specs for a 308 Win case. Hodgdon, and Hornaday say .343". I assume this is with bullet seated. This means a neck wall thickness of .0175". I have measured all my brass and neck wall thickness is around .013". A new unfired Lapua 308 Win case wall thickness is .0135". This means a loaded cartridge neck of .335". The Saami spec for the neck reamer is .3442". So the brass is .009" small on the spec. The and the actual chamber neck is .348 which is .0038" loose on the spec. The manufacturers have both loosened the specs in their favor for liability. Savage is bad for that. The whole thing is a hairball I do not want to mess with.

I went to the range today. The mirage was horrible. We are on an old lava flow, so the rocks heat up, and the wind was 15-20. Normal spring conditions for our range. In August it gets worse. The upshot is that these old eyes can not see .224" holes at 300 meters. The 308 Win barrel may end up a 30BR barrel, even though it is 10 twist. I can see .308 holes at 300 Meters. I do not need super match accuracy. However the rifle should shoot as well as factory varmint rifle.

Will stay in touch.

Jeffrey Tooker

[felix]

That's your cheapest way out, Jeffery. That BR case can be treated as a rimless 30-30 or 30 Remington when loading for target or deer. The 10 twist will be fine for condoms considering your accuracy requirement at 300, and good enough at 100 for small targets using real boolits. Best of both worlds. Given the flexibility of the 264, 277, 284 bores, you can use the same cases all over again with a new barrel should you get the urge to reduce recoil. The powder list above that Joe provided proves that. ... felix

[Jeffreytooker]

Felix and Joe:

I will mull this over for the next while. It got rid of my problem in a way that I never thought of.

Thx.
Jeffrey Tooker

[StarMetal]

Jeff,

I'm sure you know, but the case neck has to have some room to expand and release the bullet or you can have some real dangerous pressures.

My 6.5 Grendel Lothar Walther barrel has the chamber neck at .295 instead of .300 which is the norm. My Lapua cases with a jacketed .264 bullet loaded measure about .292. Case life is excellent.

Joe

[felix]

Gosh, I had no idea, Joe, that Lapua case would be so thick. Too thick for a bolt gun with a match chamber. Your gun is an auto, right? If ordering a new barrel for a bolt gun, I would pick something closer to: 264 + 011 + 011 + 001 = 287. This would allow some minor neck turning to clean up the cases should that be necessary. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Gosh, I had no idea, Joe, that Lapua case would be so thick. Too thick for a bolt gun with a match chamber. Your gun is an auto, right? If ordering a new barrel for a bolt gun, I would pick something closer to: 264 + 011 + 011 + 001 = 287. This would allow some minor neck turning to clean up the cases should that be necessary. ... felix


Yup it's an AR15 Felix. Like I've said some of the Grendel boys are shooting holes at distance. One fellow took an elk last season at 480 yards. The little bugger of a cartridge is a humdinger.

The bolt gun chamber reamer have tighter specs.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Felix, how about this....peruse this and tell me what you think of it in bolt rifle. For those of you that think it's the 7x62x39 reinvented it's much hotter.


http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/remington-introduces-new-30-remington-ar-cartridge/

Joe

[felix]

For an auto, we have the ar10, right? Isn't that 308W? If I were going to put that in the ar16 platform, it would have a 14 twist for sure, not that silly 10 twist. Even 16 twist would be fine if the ranges were held to 250 yards instead of that lousy 500 yards. How many deer hunters can see past a couple of hundred and hit anything? None that I know of. On the other hand, folks like the black guns nowadays, so it does not matter what is good or bad on an engineering level.

The standard 308 is a fine BR cartridge on its own merits. It lost favor among the BR crowd because of recoil, and that is the ONLY reason. The 6 PPC wins only because of THAT reason. Maybe that new case size at 44 grains will find more favor in the 277/284 bore size because it would mimic the same ratio as the 308 to the 30-06. ... felix

[StarMetal]

For an auto, we have the ar10, right? Isn't that 308W? If I were going to put that in the ar16 platform, it would have a 14 twist for sure, not that silly 10 twist. Even 16 twist would be fine if the ranges were held to 250 yards instead of that lousy 500 yards. How many deer hunters can see past a couple of hundred and hit anything? None that I know of. On the other hand, folks like the black guns nowadays, so it does not matter what is good or bad on an engineering level.

The standard 308 is a fine BR cartridge on its own merits. It lost favor among the BR crowd because of recoil, and that is the ONLY reason. The 6 PPC wins only because of THAT reason. Maybe that new case size at 44 grains will find more favor in the 277/284 bore size because it would mimic the same ratio as the 308 to the 30-06. ... felix

Yes the 308W is on an AR10 along with a good many other cartridges including some magnum 30 calibers too!!!

I don't know about the rifling. Why does the 7.62x39 have a 10 twist? Why does a 30 Luger have a 9 twist? Too many questions that boggle the mine.

You notice in the article it said for long range accuracy from the AR the 6.5 Grendel was the ticket?

Joe

[felix]

Twist is compromise between accuracy and penetration. The 6.5 designs have always favored a long projectile. Wasn't this because the Navy required extremely long ranges back in the dark ages (Lee Navy rifles)? ... felix