PDA

View Full Version : Hollow Base Cast Boolit Lube???



muzzle flash
02-16-2006, 12:01 PM
I am shooting a 577/450 martini and am using a 550gr. & a 360 gr.hollow base bollit. The heavy one drops out at .458 and the hollow base drops out at .460. I take SPG. and rub it into the grease groves. My question is that is there any benefit by filling the hollow base up with lube???

KCSO
02-16-2006, 02:08 PM
Not with a soft lube in warm weather. The lube will migrate to the powder and you will get srtinging. If you use a lube like that or a grease cookie yu will need a waxed card wad to keep the powder dry. I am not sure if there is room in the neck of the case for a wad. You want your wad perfectly centered under the bullet and it must not be over or under the bore diameter by much. I use a 460 card wad in 45-110 with a 458 bullet. The same wad in a 44-40 cae will bunch up and tip the bullet as it comes out the muzzle and a 44 won't seal the 45 case. Unless you are having trouble gettng more than 10 shots without fouling out I would stick with lubing the grooves only.

Buckshot
02-17-2006, 03:48 AM
..................Ditto what KSCO said. You probably already know that the British did not use a hollow base slug in that cartridge. It did have a mild cup base, but that was to roll the paper patch tail up into.

If you use 16# paper and paper patch that .458" slug it will be right for the Martini. Then you don't need to worry about what to do with that hollowbase. That way you can also use just about any 45 caliber rifle boolit too.

.................Buckshot

muzzle flash
02-17-2006, 08:13 AM
I do have trouble with fouling in the throat when using the .458 slugs. The hollow base slugs do not give me this problem. The throat on these guns is WAY long. I dont think you could find a projectile long enough to make it near the lands. I did not know that the cartridge did not use a hollow based boolit. I chose the hollow base because it was more suited to the bore dia. And that I have no experience wiyh paper patching. THANKS.

shooter575
02-17-2006, 03:49 PM
You may be confused with the .577 round used in the Snyder.It used a hollow base minne with a boxwood plug in it.

muzzle flash
02-17-2006, 05:26 PM
Nope no confusion. Just was told that these hollow base boolits shot well out of the martini and that they do. Just was not sure if filling the hollow base full of lube would be of any benefit or not.

Harry O
02-17-2006, 08:56 PM
My question is that is there any benefit by filling the hollow base up with lube???

My experience with hollow base bullets is primarily in the 41 Long Colt. I have two moulds for it; the Rapine 386185 and the Lyman 386178 and I have fired somewhere between 2 and 3 thousand rounds of these bullets alone. I tried both of them with BP lube in the base and without BP lube in the base.

The purpose of a hollow base is usually to expand to reach the grooves. Filling the base with lube cushions the blow from the powder and delays the bullet from reaching of the grooves until it is further down the barrel. That means poor accuracy.

My findings were: (1) filling the base with lube gave dramatically worse accuracy, (2) not filling the base gave dramatically better accuracy, (3) BP powder gave better accuracy than smokeless with and without lube in the base, (4) soft bullets are an absolute necessity, and (5) BP lube is MUCH better than smokeless lube (on the outside) at these velocities regardless of the type of powder you use.

I also have two other hollow base moulds for other guns. They are the Rapine 38-40 and Rapine 44-40 calibers. Both have better fitting bores than the 41LC. I ahve not fired nearly as many bullets through these. However, some admittedly brief tests showed that the same pattern as listed above held for them. It was less dramatic a difference between the best groups and the worst ones with the better fitting bullets, but there was a difference. I would expect yours to be similar.

Frank46
02-18-2006, 03:32 AM
There were two articles in either handloader or rifle magazine some years back. The author was jim jukes. In the latter of the articles he had used a no longer made bullet mold that was I believe made origionally for the 460 weatherby magnum. His loading data and comments were in both articles. You could do a search with wolf publishing and see if you could get those two issues. I had a martini and used to use the 457125 with toilet paper for wadding to keep the powder charge against the primer in that huge case. Upon firing bits of TP would be blown out in a flurry. Frank

Buckshot
02-18-2006, 05:59 AM
http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

The above are Lee 458-405F's. They're paper patched with 16# bond and they DO seat into the ballseat of my MkIV Martini-Henry. The above ammo is loaded with my favorite general plinking/accuracy load. That's 38.0grs of IMR3031 + Dacron and that patched boolit.

Possibly even a better longer range slug is the Lee 458-450F. It too is very accurate but for my shooting to 200 meters it just isn't required. The mentioned load is good for about 1250 fps and will topple the 200 meter ram.

You can use any 45 caliber rifle boolit dropping at .458" and with 2 wraps of 16 or 20# bond, patch it up to the correct .470" diameter. While I don't suggest you practice reloading while watching the idiot box (well, I don't recommend watching it period, to put a point to it) but you CAN paper patch boolit's while partaking, and turn otherwise wasted time into productive time.

Just do a general board search for 'Paper Patching' and you'll get what you need to know about how to do it, sizing, lubing etc. You might also like to buy Paul Matthew's book, "The Paper Jacket". It is NOT rocket science, but is rather simple and a straightforward process.

..................Buckshot

muzzle flash
02-18-2006, 09:03 AM
Thanks guy's. Some very usefull info. I will be trying the paper patch deal soon. I run 3 slug's through the bore and they came out at .461. I use 75 gr. of BP. which fills the turned brass casses a bit below the neck, a square of waxed paper on top of powder and fill the neck up half way with cream of wheat then seat boolit. This gives me a slight compression of powder. This load gives me 1260 fps. and have not been able to do any better than 3" groups. I do find it interesting that every time my first shot through a clean bore will always be 4" high and about 2"to the left. After that fouling shot it settles right down. Shot at 100 meters off a front rest.

trooperdan
02-18-2006, 11:09 AM
Harry, I have a Lyman 386178 mould. I thought it was supposed to be a hollow base but this one is a regular flat bases. Guess Lyman made both variations. Interesting!

Idahoan
02-18-2006, 07:11 PM
While I do not like aluminum moulds much, Lee has a 405 gr HB that is called .459" that works very well in the o/s .45 bores, the bullets actually drop at about .461" with 20:1. Casting fast increases the size to .463"-.464", (the aluminum blocks get hotter and expand is the theory they tell me), and work exceptionally well in my 11.7X51MM Danish Rolling Block, which has a .464" groove die at throat and .462" at muzzle. I use a custom-made .4635" sizer, mostly to lube (with SPG).

Harry O
02-18-2006, 09:42 PM
Harry, I have a Lyman 386178 mould. I thought it was supposed to be a hollow base but this one is a regular flat bases. Guess Lyman made both variations. Interesting!

Yes, interesting. I don't know how it would shoot, but doubt that it would hit anything. The 386178 is 0.386" in diameter. It has to expand to reach the rifling. That is the reason for the hollowbase. The other Lymans with flat bases (386177 and 386176) are over 0.400" in diameter. I wonder if there is any other caliber out there that is anywhere near 0.386"?

Buckshot
02-19-2006, 05:57 AM
................Muzzle Flash, there is nothing at all wrong with 3" groups at 100 yards, using the issue sights and trigger. I don't care HOW good the trigger is. I DO know how the sights are :-)!

I tried shooting mine with BP once. I loaded up 20 cases with 110grs Goex 2Fg and the 450gr Lee. With not too many rounds fired, I would have gladly paid someone else to shoot off the rest! The Martini doesn't weigh very much and that load was abusive. I couldn't even enjoy the smoke and the noise! I just cringed in anticipation of being wolloped again.

.................Buckshot

muzzle flash
02-19-2006, 08:50 AM
Yep! I bet that hurts considering I have never loaded more than 75 gr. of FFG. I would imagine that you also had considerable bore fouling with that heavy load of BP. Dont get me wrong I am happy with the groups I am getting but I will try something to achive better results.

threett1
02-26-2006, 04:47 PM
Buckshot, is that a common paper you patch with? I know onionskin is almost impossible to find anymore. "Technology"

Buckshot
02-27-2006, 04:46 AM
Buckshot, is that a common paper you patch with? I know onionskin is almost impossible to find anymore. "Technology"

The 577-450's were patched with regular old typing paper. Most of the others I patch for use Mead 9# Airmail which is 25% cotton content onionskin. A well stocked stationary store should have it, or might be able to get it for you. Trying to remember here at work, but the last tablet (50 sheets) of that paper I bought was like $4 something? If you had to buy a ream of 500 sheets you could probably sell some off, or have enough to last your life 8)

Really, the name or what it's called doesn't matter. What matters is the thickness and it's ability to retain enough strength went wetted to be stretched and rolled on. Usually means a finer made paper. You can check art and crapfts stores, but another good place is one carrying drafting supplies. Draftsmen like GOOD paper!

.................Buckshot