310 Martini Preliminary results.

[NoDakJak]

Finally managed to shovel thru the huge snow drifts that the last blizzard left and get into my shop. It was pretty cool in the unheated shop but I just couldn't wait any longer to test the new mold that I recieved last week. I boiled this die in water with a bit of Dawn Dish Washing detergent added for about twenty minutes. I pre-heated it on the pot and on the second cast started getting keepers. Lee out-did themselves on this mold. Weight runs from 120.5 to 122 grains. The measurement of the heel is a consistant .3055 except for one cavity that maesures .307. I find it hard to believe that Lee can manage to achieve this quality control at this price. Will it shoot though? I plan to load some and then lube with JPW and give it a try. I have never previously used JPW but it would seem to be a natural with this combinitation. Testing will have to wait for a while though as there is still several feet of snow on the range. Neil

[Dan Cash]

You have the gun and the ammo; blast your way through the drifts.:bigsmyl2:

Dan

[jdgabbard]

You talking about .310 Cadet? I've got a martini in that caliber, as well as a few others. Hope you get some good results.

[NoDakJak]

Yes, it is the .310 Cadet. I believe that I will trim some new 32.20 brass to length and then fire up the lathe and thin the rims slightly. I was suprised to find the variance in rim thickness in these Remington cases. Usually one shallow pass to true things up and then they chamber nicely. The cases that I have already prepared have had the rims thinned from the rear and the material removed is so little that I have had no trouble with protruding primers.
I have never loaded ammunition that used an outside lubed boolit before so this is going to be a learning experience. Neil

[sav300]

Try a dummy 32.20 in the 310 cadet chamber.Had a cadet that worked with 32.20s.

[Bigjohn]

The original chamber were just a straight taper and if they were cut oversize; the .32/20 would load and fire.

I did hear that some companies which bought the rifle from Australia, ran a .32/20 chamber reamer in and re-cut the chambers. Then sold them as .32/20 WCF. This would not have been good as a lot of the grooves are .320"

John

[NoDakJak]

My first Martini Cadet was back in 1962. It had been rechambered to 32 Winchester Special. I never found out how well it shot as it just wasn't any fun at all to shoot. That little fly weight devil would slap the snot out of you every time you pulled the trigger. I had another that had been rebored to 357 magnum. Real tackdriver! In a moment of temporary insanity I sold it to my hunting partner. Sure wish that I had it back. In 1960 I stepped into a Hardware store in Oakland, California and saw dozens of them in a huge rack. $11.95 apiece or just $7.95 apiece for just the action.
I have been finger lubing the boolits with JPW and it has been working well. The bore is slick and shiny after forty rounds. The wax dries hard, allowing a person to drop a few into his shirt pocket for an afternoons hunt and not have to worry about it collecting lint and dirt. Try that with LLA lubed boolits.
Big John: I will try that idea of using full length 32-20 brass and see if it works. Sure would be nice if it does. I need to fire up the lathe and make a hand/straight line seating die for this round. The boolits are a tight fit in the neck and if they get the slightest bit cocked they are a real PITA to get seated. I am using a 30 Carbine neck expander and it is working perfectly. I certainly don't have to worry about crimping these cases.
I am wondering if anyone else has been using the new molds? Let us know your experiences.
Neil

[jdgabbard]

I have several martinis. One, a 1921 Afghan Contract Rifle or Belgum origin, in .303. Never shot it, but like he said. I'm sure they have quite a snap. Every rifle I've seen also has a pretty stiff trigger with a firm snap upon release. I've heard to not expect better than paper plate size groups at 200 meters.

[woodsman1st]

Many years ago I had a Martini; I dont remember which though; I sent it to P.O. Ackley and he turned it into a 17 Ackley Bee. I lost it when all my guns were stolen one Thanksgiving Day.
What would be the cost of one nowadays? I sure would like to get another one and have another 17 Ackley Bee?
Regards
Ken

[PAT303]

I ran a 32/20 reamer through mine and load cadet slugs in it.10 grns of 296 and a card wad and its all good. Pat

[Myshot]

This is my first post on this forum. It is about a cartridge and rifle I really like. The 310. I have loaded for several of these rifles now and my current one is a BSA model 8 which came to Australia as a target rifle. There are no australian markings on it. It has a parker hale peep sight which was specially made for the Martini. The cartridge is really the .310 greener and details are written up on page 386 in Cartridges of the world. I use Bertram cases, which i have never had any trouble with. Hawksbury bullets (cast bullet manufacturer) makes 2 bullets. 120 grn outside lubed and 128 heeled bullet. In my rifle both will print 1 1/4-1 1/2 groups at fifty yards (which is as good as I can shoot with open sights). I had trouble getting really good accuracy until I started putting the reloaded round through the full length die. Yep, thats right. This actually crimps the case on the the bullet and they slip into the chamber easily. i am using ADI 2205, but this leaves alot of unburnt powder in the barrel and I am trying AS30 at the moment. I have not had much luck putting 32-20 through it, accuracy is crap. Cheers

[NoDakJak]

Welcome to the forum Myshot. There are lots of good people and information here.
I like your choice of rifle and sight. I have the same sight on a couple BSA Model 12s that I purchased while stationed in England about thirty years ago. One of my prizes is a Sportco Martini that has a lightweight 25-20 barrel installed on it. It also had a four power Tasco scope installed in a "Field" side mount.
I size the cases in a 32-20 die and then very slightly bell the case with a hand held punch. Boolits are started with thumb pressure and then fully seated in a simple press. There is no lube groove on the Lee bollit so after the boolits are seated I take a little Johnson Paste wax and smear a tiny amount on the lead. This dries hard in a few minutes and leaves a colorless coating that does not pick up lint and dirt like Lee liquid lube does. My most accurate load at the moment uses a piddling amount of Winchester 231. Velocity is probably under 900 fps but that should do very well for hunting bunnies. Neil

[Myshot]

Thanks for the welcome Neil. the 310 is one my favourite calibres fro rabbits and foxes. With the heeled bullet the case needs to be closed onto the bullet and that is why I put them trhough the sizing die. I am experimenting with ADI AS30 (very similiar with Red dot) I am pushing about 1300fps but I will chron the loads soon. Thanks. Wayne

[smlekid]

Hi myshot saw you were in Oz and thought i would chime in with some data and results with the 310
a couple of ideas and opinions the Blackhawke bullets work great the 120gr bullet is .318" and the 128gr .323" so watch your loads if you change boolits most of the cadet shooters here are using the 128gr according to Blackhawke these are a copy of a Kynoch match bullet my rifle shoots well with them but not as well with the 120gr (my bore slugs at .320")
as for powder I wouldn't suggest AS30 I think it is a bit to fast a lot of guys here are using AP50 and the reports (rifle bangs!!) are some what squiby sounding I think the pressure curve isn't quite right
Ap70 is what most are using and it seems to work very well I did some experimenting with Ap100 and it shows some promise
All the research I did when I started loading for mine suggested Alliant Bluedot the closest powder I had in the cupboard was Winchester 540 I load 6.5grs with the 128gr Blackhawk I am getting around 1350fps and my rifle shoots very well with this load I can shoot into the 140's on the MRC cadet targets in a 3P shoot
I am now loading a CBE 120gr cadet bullet I cast myself using the same load of 540 I haven't had a chance to chrony the load yet but think it would be up around 1400 fps (with the alloy I am using it drops at 110gr .320" dia)
most of the guys here are loading 5gr of AP70 with the 128gr Blackhawk (my rilfe will not extract at this level of AP70 hence my concerns on AP30) my rifle will only digest 4.5grs
I also trim my cases to 1.050" why? because that was the shortest case in my lot of brass there is a lot of variation in the local brass
let us know how it shoots with the AS30 keep an ear out on your reports my loads give a nice crack and extraction is very easy just a push down and the empty just falls out of the chamber it is a very sweet load in my 310

[Myshot]

Thanks smlekid. AP30 was very quick and certainly put the bullets out, but accuracy was nothing to write home about. I have gone to 4 grians of AP70 and the groups are pretty good, with either the 120 grain or the 128 Hawksbury projectiles. My best groups are with ADI 2205, 9.5 grains and this is a winner. I won the shoot (classic Light nitro group)at our club on the shooting against other rifles/cartridges made before 1939. I am still doing some more experimenting with these bullets. It is a pity that Hawksbury bullets is no longer. Looks like I will have to get a mould as well. My rifle shoots both the bullets (heeled and unheeled) really well. Do you put you loaded round through the resising die? This is really the way the heeled bullets were loaded. I hope to be down the range on monday to tests some more loads. I will let you know how they go. Where do you live. I live in Melton, Vic. Cheers Wayne

[smlekid]

G'day Mate I'm up here in sunny Mildura are you in the Military Rifle club down there? there should be a few blokes coming up this weekend for the annual turkey shoot if you can swing it try and get up here it will be a great shoot and we are having a cadet shoot
I believe that Blackhawkes are being made again someone took over the production while I haven't seen any Cadet bullets there a plenty of 357 bullets in one of the local gun shops
I'm going to take a punt are you using Lee dies? I'm using Simplex and do not have to run the loaded ammo through the sizing die it seems the people using the Lee dies do like to run them back through usually so they will chamber
I gave up on AR2205 it was way to dirty I'd try sneaking up on the Ap70 loads if you have access to a Chrony try and get your velocity up around 1300fps that would appear to be the velocity for the original load
I was devolping some loads with AP100 it looks to hav e some promise I also load with Small Rifle primers and work on the theory of using a slower powder due to the barrel time in a rifle it might be a pistol size round but it has a long tube to get down
hopefully here are 2 pics of the 2 different bullets the first Pic is the 128gr Blackhawke with 6.5gr 540 the second is the 120gr CBE Cadet bullet lubed with Lee Liqiud Alox these are at 50m from a bench sorry about the quality for reference the patches are about 1"

[Myshot]

smlekid
They are good groups. Yes I am using Lee dies, but I am still trying to get my own set. No one has any in stock at the moment. Running them through the die crimps the case onto the heeled bullet. My rounds will chamber withour doing it. I am a member of the SSAA and the big game rifle club at Little River. I was born in Mildura 58 years ago. ADI 2205 is dirty, but accurate. I will up the loads with AP70 and see where that takes me. I have a chrony and I hope to put some loads through it on Monday and i will let you know the results. I can not make to your shoots, but it sounds like lots of fun. Wayne

[smlekid]

I'd try Jansa arms for some Simplex 7/8 dies
small world isn't it

[Myshot]

Been there, and they have none in stock and I am on their waiting list. It sure is a small world. If you are ever coming to melbourne give me a bell. wayne

[Myshot]

Well, down the range this morning with the 310 amongst others. Tried various loads of AP70. 3.7 grains was all over the place, 4.5 was reasonable and then 5 grains with the 128 grain heeled bullet. A snappy load that extracted easily. first 4 shots at 50 yards went into 5/8" and the 5th shot opened the group out to 1 1/4". 9.5 grains 2205 was nice and extracted easy, and grouped into 1 1/2-2". 10 grains was harder to extract. I am now going to try the 122 grained bullet with 5 grains of AP70. Will chronograph the load next trip.

[smlekid]

sounds like you are getting somewhere with AP70 I need to do some more devolpment with it myself

[Myshot]

smlekid. It does look promising. It burns very clean, and appears to be accurate once you reach the right load. 3.7 grains with the 128 grainer shot 5 inch groups. At 4.5 and 5 grains it tightened right up. I just have to work out which bullet is going to be the most accurate, 122grn non heeled or the 128 grn heeled. I am getting short of both and need to bulk buy one or the other. I really like the 122 grn one best. Either that or get a CBE mould, I have plent of lead, but casting for a 458 win, 38.55, and the cadet will eat up the lead. I will chronogrpah it next trip to the range. That won,t be for 4 weeks as I am off to N.Z. for 3 weeks holiday. See you then Wayne

[Argus]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I have had a BSA (NSW) 310 Cadet for 30 years gathering dust since Super ammunition went off the market. I recently acquired a further two 310 Cadet rifles, another BSA (VIC markings) and a Greener, re-chambered for 32-20 (and stamped on the barrel). Both had black bores with no visible rifling. The Greeners action would not open fully as it was gummed up with years of gunk. Stripped, soaked and scrubbed and found a reasonable amount of rifling in both.

I purchased both types of 310 Cadet boolits from Hawkesbury River (they are back in business outside Cessnock in the Hunter Valley). They make a .316" 122gn, and a .323" 128gn heeled boolit. I also purchased a set of Lee .310 Cadet dies. I had about 100 once fired Super cases, and bought 200 new Bertram cases.

Measured a random pull of brass and got about 0.15" variation. Did some internet research and ended up taking a stab and trimmed half of them to 1.08"

Full length sized 100 cases, half Super and half Bertram, and random sampled cases and chambered them in all three rifles. Most fell into the chamber, but some Super were thumb press fit.

Loaded 50 rounds of each boolit into 25 Super/Bertram cases front of 9.5gn of AR2205, and CCI small rife primers and off to the range to just fireform the cases, not to go for group results.

Then the problems started!

Could not chamber half of the rounds (should have checked them before I went!). Some discussion with the gallery revealed two interesting points. The Lee sizing dies are not the right size, and the Hawkesbury River Boolits have a mould seam resulting in an out of round case mouth. Measurements confirmed this.

Back home and off to Jansa, where I bought a 7/8 Simplex .310 Cadet die set off the shelf.

Totally different result, Full length sized the brass, same powder load, same boolits, BUT, this time I took the decaping pin out of the sizing die and pushed the loaded rounds into the die.

Off to the range again, and every round chambered.

Initial results are very encouraging. As recent as today (the second round of tests) have revealed that the rifles do not like the 0.316" boolits. Ten rounds at 50Y both BSA rifles keyholed 50% of the rounds that hit the target (only half hit!). The Greener grouped about 8 inches. The 128gn 0.323" heeled boolits performed very well with 3 inch groups out of the BSA's and 1.5" out of the Greener.

The AR2205 did not burn fully, with a lot of unburnt residue in the brass and in the barrel. Advice from the gallery will be followed and some AP100 powder will be purchased when I have time for round three of the testing. I will drop the 0.316" 122gn and concentrate on the heeled boolits.

Will post the results.

[358wcf]

Great to see another wiping the cobwebs off those old Martini Cadets! What beauties they are, so much fun to shoot, and accurate as well.
In my two "as issued" BSA cadets (310 cal), I use both Bertram cases as well as reformed/trimmed/rim-thinned 32-20 from Buffalo Arms Co. RCBS heeled boolits work just fine over a very mild load of 4.0gr Unique (in my guns). Quiet, no recoil, 2" groups at 50yds with issue sights and OLD EYES. A bit of unburned powder, but no leading at all. Gotta find a way to put a bit of a crimp on those loaded rounds.
I've acquired vintage Parker Hale tang sights for these beauties, and after mounting these, will begin serious load development for better accuracy and a bit more velocity.
Keep us posted, friend, and Good on ya, mate!

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[Argus]

After my last post and experience I have chucked out the 312" boolits.

I took my Greener 310 Cadet to the range this morning. Although it is chambered 32-20, I shoot 310 Cadet ammunition.

I loaded Hawkesbury River 128g Heeled .323" boolits.

30 rounds each of 14gn ADI AR2205, and 6gn of ADI AP100.

To get some consistency at 50M, and shooting off a bench rest with open sights, and a diopter on my shooting glasses, I shot 10 rounds 2205, followed by 10 rounds AP100. I then cleaned the rifle, then reversed the order and shot 10 rounds AP100, followed by 10 rounds 2205. I did this twice and I could not pick the difference between the powder loads in group diameter and placing on the target.

The first group in each bracket was tighter (1.5" to 2") than the second (2" to 3"), which I put down to perhaps barrel fouling. Having said that, two wipes with a solvent patch, and two with a clean dry patch left the last patch with just a smudge. AR2205 did leave a lot of unburnt residue on the bench.

I shot the last 10 rounds of each powder alternately at two separate targets with a 2-3" group.

So, the Jury is out on the choice of powder, if I get time I will repeat exactly the same test with my two BSA 310 Cadets next week and see if I get the same results.

[Argus]

Repeated the tests this afternoon using my two 310 BSA Cadets. Similar results, but I am going to discount them and try again next week. Conditions today were blowing a gale and very gusty.

Vertical separation was around 2", but horizontal was 5-6"

[C1PNR]

I unfortunately have only one .310 Cadet. The bore slugged .321, and if that is the norm, as I'm led to believe, those .316 diameter boolits will probably give you nothing but grief.

I'm watching your trials with much interest. Although the nomenclature on your powder differs, I can probably find an equivalent here in Idaho.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Argus]

Hi C1PNR, As I have detailed earlier in the posts, .316 boolits fly wild out of each of my three 310 rifles. If I hit the target at all, half of them keyholed.

A good reference site is www.adi-powders.com.au. This details loads for a wide range of boolits for all calibers, and has a powder equivalent chart.

If the weather is OK I will take my 310s back to the range this Sunday and continue the trials.

[Argus]

Here are a couple of pictures of the Hawkesbury River 128gn Blackhawk heeled 0.323 dia 310 Cadet Boolits. In picture 1, the boolit on the right is one that I slugged the barrel with. The black coating is a lube impregnated substance put on by the manufacturer. I shoot them dry, out of the box.

Being five grooves and lands I took five measurements and averaged them out to be 0.320"

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=2554 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=2555

[Argus]

Off to the Range today to continue the tests. It was pouring rain so no chronometer.

I shot a NSW marked BSA .310 Cadet, and a VIC marked BSA .310 Cadet. Only the NSW rifle results are reported here as the VIC marked rifle did not perform anywhere near the NSW with the loads I used. The boolits are the HR 128gn heeled boolits pictured in my earlier post.

I feel that the results were influenced by the rain and wind, but they show good progress.

First target is 5.5gn of ADI AP100. 10 rounds at 50M. Rounds all over the place.
As a reference, the black is 195mm or 7 3/4 inches in diameter.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=2568


The second target 6gn of ADI AP100, 10 rounds at 50M. The group is tightening up, but I suspect some wind spread. (Pic is a bit out of focus!)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=2569


This final target is 6.5gn of ADI AP100, 10 rounds at 50M. Now they are pulling together! (The flyer in the 8 ring was my fault) As a reference the 9-ring is 95mm or 3 3/4 inches in diameter.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=373&pictureid=2570

I will take these loads to an indoor range and repeat the tests as I am certain that the weather conditions influenced the results.

The same loads in my VIC marked BSA .310 Cadet, and my Greener 310 (chambered 32-20) give very poor results.

[linus]

I was just going through 310 Cadet posts, and when I hit on this one I saw it was about exactly what I wanted to report. I am fortunate to have two Martini Cadets. One was rechambered to 32-20, and i shoot a custom 100gr pill in it sized to .318. The other was not rechambered, so i obtained a mold for CBE's 120 gr bullet. Cnsiering the heel of the bullet is about .310 it was just a matter of time before I realized I could seat that bullet in the 32-20 case. Presto! It shoots like a house afire. I use 6.5gr AA9 in the 32-20 and 5.0gr AA9 in the 310. For the 310 I cast the CBE bullet soft at 1:50 or even just pure Pb. I found harder bullets leaded the bore. If anyone knows how to thin the rim on 32-20s to make cases for the 310 without using a lathe, I would like to hear about it. I lube the 120gr bullets with liquid Alox slightly diluted with 90% isopropyl alcohol applied to the lube groove with a pipe cleaner. I am always looking for faster, cleaner and more efficient ways to lube these guys.
Jim

[kscop]

The thing about 32-20 cadet rifles is that while they were rechambered for 32-20, the bore is still for the .310, meaning that the larger heeled bullet is needed.

I found with my 32-20 that if I use once-fired, or fire formed 32-20 brass that has conformed to my chamber, I can thumb seat the bullet and end up with a 32-20 that is 1.72 inches long (spec is about 1.58 as I recall) and that still chambers fine.

That gives me a bit more case volume so I can get more velocity with less pressure.

I use the RCBS 310-120-RN heeled bullet and 11.1g of 4227. That load gets me about 1500fps and well within pressure specs. Bullet cast from hard alloy and water quenched, LLA lubed, small pistol magnum primer. It's a shooter!

By the way, I just tumble lube the bullets; works fine with any cast bullet and haven't had a leading issue. I just dump the bullets in an old tupperware container, squirt in some LLA and toss them around until coated. Drop them on a rag, spread out to dry and done. easy peasy


Also have a load using 6.7g of Blue Dot. Works out to about 1300 fps and 13000 PSI. A fund round for sure

Gotta love the cadet rifles..

I just bit the bullet so to speak and bought .310 brass for my .310..

[kscop]

FUN round, not fund..
fat fingers..