Mould suggestion for original Springfield 45-70

[KirkD]

I have an original Springfield Model 1889 .45-70. I bought a double cavity SAECO F7D 881 mould for 500 grain bullets. To my disappointment, the as cast diameters using wheel weights is only .4585". I wanted .460". These .4585" bullets are wobbling and only giving 5" 5-shot groups at 100 yards out of an excellent bore. I need another couple thou of diameter.

So now I'm on the hunt for a double cavity mould that will drop 500 grain bullets at at least .460. Any recommendations?

[coyotebait]

I am in the same boat as KirkD, the bullets I bought unsized from an 881 mold measure .459 cast from 20-1. I bought them to shoot from my trapdoor but would like to buy a mold that drops a .460-.461. The .459 bullets did not shoot that well with 67 gr Swiss 1 1/2. I have not shot the rifle since recrowning the muzzle. Kirk are you shooting white or black powder?
coyotebait

[Wayne Smith]

Drop them made of 20-1 or 30-1 and use BP. They will obdurate and fill your bore.

[Char-Gar]

Barrel specs on these rifles are all over the map. The military depended on soft lead and the explosive effect of a charge of black powder to upset the bullets and give decent accuracy in these barrels.

Lyman 457125 is a clone of the original 500 grain bullet and many folks get good results with it. I don't know what the "as cast" diamter of this bullet is these days.

You may end up having to "Beagle" or lap a mold to get the diamter you want. Neither is particularily hard to do.

If push comes to shove, you can always go to Mountain Molds and have a mold made to whatever specs you want, with whatever alloy you want. I have several MM molds and they are very high quality stuff.

[Larry Gibson]

I use a Rapine 460500. It is, however, a single cavity mould. For use in my M1884 TD converted to a target rifle I tried the .459 cast soft and depending on obturation with 2 other moulds. While accuracy was ok it was not as good as it should have been. We all know that cast bullets, for best accuracy, need to fit the throat and be at least equal to groove depth, preferably larger. With 1-16 alloy my Rapine drops bullets at .4615". With WWs + 2% tin they run .462". I've a honed out H die that sizes at .4165". With the Rapine bullet at 200 yards my 10 shot groups with either BP or smokeless run 2.5 - 4" (basically between 1 and 2 moa).

Another option may be the Lee 458-405-HB. Mine drops bullets at .463-.466" depending on alloy. with the 1-16 alloy they run .463 and i generally shoot them "as cast". They shoot quite well though not quite as good as the Rapine.

Rapine has other 460XXX moulds of various weights also.

Larry Gibson

[jack19512]

I like the Lee 340 gr. and the 405 gr. in my 45/70. Real good accuracy.

[KirkD]

Thank you, men, for your suggestions thus far. I'd prefer to stick with a 500 grain bullet just for old times sake. I am using smokeless powder. I can go with a powder that gives the same pressure curve as black powder to obdurate the soft cast bullet .... I never tried that yet. However, I always prefer to have a cast bullet that is about .001 to .002" oversize to the groove diameter of my rifle.

[JSnover]

My Lee 405 HB with your alloy drops .460 +/- .001

[JSnover]

Kirk, have you considered lapping the mold? You're only looking for another .0015" I think I'd be tempted to do that rather than buy another one right off the bat.

[MtGun44]

Hollow base Lee worked wonders for my Trapdoor.

As far as "old times sake" the 500 grain was not the original load,
it was a 405. Actually, they quickly downloaded it for the cavalry
carbines, using a cardboard tube to take up the space. The recoil of the
full 70 gr BP load, even with the 405 in the carbines was
brutal. I have seen these boxes of reduced charge loads for
carbines.

My experience was 24" groups and sideways impacts at 50 yds
with the 500 gr Lyman "original design" and 4" groups at 100
with the Lee hollow base.

Bill

[jack19512]

I have a Lee 459-500-3R mold and had cast some of them but with lead hard to get these days and with that big of boolit recoil was more than I wanted/needed so I put them back into the pot and turned them into some 340 gr. and 405 gr. boolits. :)

[jack19512]

I got to thinking, if you were interested in this mold I would donate it to you if you wanted to pay shipping. I see no reason for me to ever go over 405 gr. in my 45/70. PM me if you want it.

[KirkD]

Jack, PM sent.
JSnover that 405 mould sounds like a good one. I need to get one in 405 to feed my old Winchester 1886 45-70. I never thought about lapping a mould. On the other hand, I have no idea how that is done. Can you point me to some info on how to lap a mould?

[jack19512]

I will also throw in 3 of my 405 gr. boolits and 3 of my 340 gr. boolits so you can examine them and try them if you want. I think you would be very happy with the 405 gr. boolits though.

[dale2242]

Lyman 457124---dale

[KirkD]

Thanks for doing that, Jack. I'll look forward to testing them out and reporting back as to how they did.

[Capn Jack]

One of my favorites for the Trap Door 45-70 was the Lyman #452664. 250gr.

As I remember it was designed as a pistol boolit for the ".45 Long Colt". I used to shoot them right out of the mould. Using the "Lyman Cast Bullet Hand Book" recomended load.:mrgreen:

When your cases start to crack out from too many re-loads, buy a cartoon of those wax .44 cal. practice boolits and use them in the back yard with a primer only.[smilie=1: You'll find them surprisingly accurate out of the Springfield.:Fire:

[45 2.1]

Keep using your 881 mold, only cast them 50:1 lead/tin. Lube in an oversize die with something like Lyman Black Powder gold. 23 to 24 gr. of SR4759 with the case crimped forward of the first band slightly. As long as the nose portion of the boolit slightly drags or engraves the boolit when chambered, it will work fine.

[Doc Highwall]

I have posted this before, anybody that wants to understand the Trapdoor Springfield should buy this book. I have it and it is a excellent book.

[Doc Highwall]

This book is also recommended but I do not have it yet and plan on buying it. It is available here. http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3

[adrians]

yes i got to get that iv'e been meaning to but i'll probably have to order it from somewhere .
i will look around for it .adrians:twisted::(:twisted:

[steg]

All my LEE molds drop at .460, and I shoot em as is in a #3.............steg

[Dale53]

I have posted this before, anybody that wants to understand the Trapdoor Springfield should buy this book. I have it and it is a excellent book.

I give this a GREAT BIG +1!!

This book is representative of many years of working with the trapdoors by Spence Wolfe and his wife, Pat. Spence is deceased but Pat has remarried. She has moved to Louisiana but is still selling the books and tools for the trapdoor. She is a VERY nice lady, too!

http://www.the45-70book.com/books

This book has information available from no where else on shooting these fine rifles.

Dale53

[adrians]

got the book and i must admit MR Wolfe put alot of hard work and studying into this ,
it's a great testement to a mans love and devotion to the "old warrior" as he called it .
it's a wealth of info for any trap owner or for that matter anyone who has an interest in the 45.70 caliber.
have a super xmas.
adrians:twisted::bigsmyl2::evil:

[Dale53]

I also found that a lot of the information is transferable to other 45/70's. As an example, I used his drawings of the Lee expander stem to have custom stems made for several of my black powder cartridge rifles. I used my dimensions but his general idea.

Frankly, I only disagreed with him on one thing - he suggested using Alox based lube with black powder. I could not disagree more. Other than that one small thing, everything else I found VERY useful.

The later issues of his book also has information on loading the black powder .45 Colt for revolver.

Dale53

[Hardcast416taylor]

I had the same size problems with my 1884 TD infantry rifle. I finally got a brass 2 cavity mold from Richard Doughty that drops out of the mold at .463". Richard made it for a TD and it fits mine to a tee.Robert

[No Good]

Doc Highwall,
I'm new around here and about to start casting.
I did get the Wolf's book. Pat was kind enough to sign it.
I've only spent a little time so far exploring it.
There's a world of information and the results of careful experimentation contained within, that much I know.
Folks surely should consider investing in a copy.

[Doc Highwall]

Do yourself a favor and read the book several times and write notes for yourself along with page numbers for future reference.

[Dutchman]

The Wolf book is a fantastic book. I love it.

When I was shooting a Trapdoor rifle I was casting 457124. Using 50:50 wheelweights & linotype and violating the laws of nature it would print cloverleafs at 50 yds using 35 grs IMR3031. Bullets dropped at .463" (older mold) and pan lubed them with allox-beeswax.

457124 was the Gov't 405 bullet. It cast lighter with a tin/antimony alloy.

That particular Trapdoor had been a movie prop gun. I picked it out of 10 that were purchased from a Burbank, Calif movie company. They were modified by cutting off the hammer spur and had nail holes in the stock were leather had been wrapped around the stock & barrel to simulate Afghan guns. They were used and I've seen the movie in some kind of Khyber Pass flic with Tyrone Powers in the early 1950s. You could see the dudes flipping open the breech to load them. The barrels were toast. Rusted and eroded. I obtained a loose original barrel and rebarreled the rifle and added new made hammer, buttplate and lathe turned a nice cleaning rod. The rifles had been brand new when they were first obtained by the studios. As I recall the s/n was in the 133xxx range.

Dutch