Speed of PB bullet

[Frank]

How fast can I drive this bullet without leading?
http://http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/44-240-WFNPB.jpg

It has a BH of 18-19. I'm using the .432 and the groove to groove diameter is .431.

[Buckshot]

How fast can I drive this bullet without leading?
http://http://www.beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/44-240-WFNPB.jpg

It has a BH of 18-19. I'm using the .432 and the groove to groove diameter is .431.

..............If it was for a 44-40, or 44 Special I'd say you could shoot it wide open, Katie bar the door. But maybe it's 44 magnum? Rifle or pistol? I can only guess at how fast you could drive it as I don't know what kind of cast boolit history your rifle/pistol has with lead. My guess would be, with a good lube and that alloy 1400 fps should be do-able in a revolter with decent measurements. Maybe 1600 fps in a rifle?

Just a guessing game with only a boolit design to look at :-)

.................Buckshot

[Crazy4nitro]

I agree
I have ran my .44Magnum with Full Doses of H110 and I dont have Leading issues.
Speed isnt always the cause of Leading.

'Nitro

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I agree with Buckshot, if the boolit is over grove diameter by .001-.002, 1600fps should be doable in a carbine, after that, I use GC's

[44man]

I have taken them to 1800 fps in my 45-70 without a problem. Too many other factors involved that can cause problems even with GC boolits to hazard a guess. You can do something wrong and get leading at 700 fps. :veryconfu

[Frank]

Or I could just shoot it with 10 grains of Unique and be done. But that would be BOOORRRINNNGGG![smilie=1:

[44man]

Or I could just shoot it with 10 grains of Unique and be done. But that would be BOOORRRINNNGGG![smilie=1:
Try 23, 23.5 and 24 gr of 296 with a standard primer.

I found a problem today with my 45-70 brass after shooting heat treated 50-50 boolits out of my BFR at over 1630 fps. I still had evidence of crimp left on every case.
Brass that fired my hard alloy does not show this.
I also had some lead in the bore so I think the crimp is harming the boolits. Most of these had gas checks.
Accuracy was great with 4 out of 5 touching at 50 yd's but I always had a flier.
Now I wonder what a 75% WW and 25% pure would do to correct this and still allow some expansion on deer.
It is a good idea to inspect fired brass carefully. It is an indication of what is happening to the boolit.
These boolits were hard and strong enough to resist sizing when seating but not hard enough to roll the crimp open.
This is just ONE reason I say to never soften revolver boolits looking for obturation because the crimp will make the boolits smaller then what you started with even if you expand the brass more to prevent initial sizing when seating, ruining case tension in the process.

[runfiverun]

the harder boolit also lets you use neck tension ,and not a crimp,to hold the boolit for good powder burn.
hard boolits are awesome when they fit.

[Frank]

I appreciate all the advice. I'm trying to keep it simple. It's a .432 bullet BH 18.5 going through a .431 groove, .425 bore, 12 lands, 20" barrel, 1/38 twist. Can you guess the rifle? It's best load with jacketed bullets was 25.8 grns H110 @ 1856 fps. Obviously, it likes speed. I think that's a problem for cast bullets though, unfortunately. Here's what I tried and it was a failure. Groups were nothing better than pie plate accuracy at 100 yards.

240 grn 432 PB - 26.2 grns 296 @ 1822 fps thru 28.2 grns @ 1967 fps

total rounds fired 16 rounds (If I shot 5 or even 3 and accuracy was bad, I moved on. I'll pull the rest later)

Accuracy: Pie plate accuracy at best off a bench at 100 yards.

Bore inspection: Massive leading - cleaned it out, then resumed testing.

Next:

300 grn 300 GC - 20.5 grns 296 @ 1488 fps thru 21.6 grns @ 1614 fps

Total rounds fired 25 rounds.

Accuracy: Best was 6" :groner: Pie plate loads again.

Bore inspection: No leading.

44man says

It is a good idea to inspect fired brass carefully. It is an indication of what is happening to the boolit.

I checked the brass. The inside of the neck is .432, but where the crimp was it is .431. Were the bullets shaved to .431 before they entered the bore? Remember, my bullets were .432. I am using a Lee factory crimp die at 'medium' - case contact plus 3/4 of a turn in.

Conclusion: I think I'll stick with jacket bullets. It's a large bore and slow twist, meaning it needs alot velocity to work right. And cast bullets don't work, even when they are sized .001 over bore. I have tried 265 grnGC, 300 grnGC in this rifle and it works OK at 50 yards, but at 100 forget it. If I drop to 1600 fps with a cast 240 grain, it probably won't stabilize. If I go to a 300 grain at 1600 fps, we know that doesn't work. Same with the 265. I think the problem is the twist. Maybe with 10 grains of Unique it'll work but I'm not interested.

I can see other rifles, like the Marlin 1894 and Ruger carbine have 1/38 twist.
I like the fit and finish of this rifle, it is second to none.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[Bret4207]

Conclusion: I think I'll stick with jacket bullets. It's a large bore and slow twist, meaning it needs alot velocity to work right. And cast bullets don't work, even when they are sized .001 over bore. I have tried 265 grnGC, 300 grnGC in this rifle and it works OK at 50 yards, but at 100 forget it. If I drop to 1600 fps with a cast 240 grain, it probably won't stabilize. If I go to a 300 grain at 1600 fps, we know that doesn't work. Same with the 265. I think the problem is the twist. Maybe with 10 grains of Unique it'll work but I'm not interested.

I can see other rifles, like the Marlin 1894 and Ruger carbine have 1/38 twist.
I like the fit and finish of this rifle, it is second to none.

Anyway, thanks for listening.
I disagree completely with your conclusion. You just scratched the surface. You started with a so called "hard" commercial boolit that's only .001 over. (I assume you actually measured the boolits with the same mic you used when slugging?) You've only just barely scratched the surface. A large bore and slow twist shouldn't need anymore velocity with a midrange weight boolit than anything else. With a properly fitted boolit you should be able to shoot any boolit the twist is capable of handling, the speed usually needs to increase as they get heavier. Your rifle maker is not identified but it sounds like a Marlin to me. Many of the guys here are shooting boolits +.003 over and none too hard with excellent results.

I think you're giving up way too easily.

[Frank]

I'm going to try "harder". I think that's the way to go. If it shoots jacketed at less size, then it wants harder to grip the shallow rifling.

[Bret4207]

Frank, do what you want, but if I was you I'd do some research here. You'll find fit is far more important than "hardness". Try a boolit +.002 or.003 larger before jumping on the "hardcast" bandwagon. I'm a relative newbie compared to some guys here as I've only been casting for 30+ years. You might want to seek a 2nd opinion before seeking harder alloy.

[44man]

I have tried almost everything I can stuff in the Marlin with pathetic results past 50 yd's. .434", BHN 30 boolits from 240 to 330 gr and everything in between. From light loads to stuck brass.
No one will ever convince me the twist is other then a round ball fit.
It looks like I need to try 180 to 200 gr jacketed to get the velocity up high enough to spin a bullet.
Since the .444 shoots faster, why did Marlin change it to a 1 in 20" twist??????? Complaints, that's why. They do not get enough complaints about the .44 or just don't care.
I worked with a Ruger for a while for a friend and it too was a 50 yd gun. It was a pain because the magazine is so short, 3/4 of stuff can't be shot anyway. I was shooting it single shot for most testing.
However, the Ruger had RIFLING instead of scratches down the bore. I can make better rifling with a bore brush then Marlin can! :drinks: The Ballard rifling is the same depth as the micro groove. Don't be fooled that it is offered for cast boolits. I think they buy worn out buttons from good gun makers.
Their twist calculations were made because they think the rifle barrel shoots a bullet a whole lot faster then a revolver, but anyone with experience knows it is NOT FAST ENOUGH. When the .444 fails, not much left for the .44 is there?

[44man]

The only thing I want to see are a pile of target pictures shot at 100 yd's with the Marlin .44, not one fluke mistake group where the fliers went the same way, I have done that and was happy until I tried again! [smilie=1: Really gets funny when the next group has quite a few holes missing from the paper.
It gets disgusting when I can shoot better groups at 200 yd's with a .44 revolver then I can from a scoped rifle at 100. As a matter of fact I have had several 500 meter groups from my BFR 45-70 that have beat the Marlin at 100! :mrgreen:
Hey, better yet, show me some 200 yd groups from the Marlin and don't tell me it is too far for a .44.
I know, it will NEVER happen. Nobody will step up to the plate because a keyboard solves all bad shooting.
I think the Marlin .44 is giving more shooters more problems then any other caliber Marlin has ever made. I love Marlins but I hate what they did with this one. I should have bought a 30-30!

[Frank]

Nobody will step up to the plate because a keyboard solves all bad shooting.


44man, I know what you're saying. I hear frequently on boards "shoots great", "works good", but never do you see any targets. How come? I think you answered the reason. Keyboard solves all bad shooting.

I agree, the 1/38 twist is too slow for accurate 100-yard rifle work in the 44mag. That's my observation. It will shoot tight at 50 yards, but at 100 yards it opens up. This has been my experience and, after research, I have found the same problem exists for others. Perhaps the problem isn't well known because people are satisfied with what it does at 50 yards. Who knows.