Cream of Wheat, grits, corn meal?

[sniper]

Which of the three materials might work best in my two favorite calibers, 257 Roberts and 357 magnum?
They all seem about the same granularity to my uneducated eye, and they look quite similar.

O.K., for the real questions:

1. How much is enough? .357, due to the fact that filler raises pressures somewhat, I figure a standard primer + medium load of powder...in my case, Unique or 2400, then fill the case with just enough filler to provide moderate compression when the bullet is seated. That should be enough to keep filler and powder in place, with no mixing. Am I on the right track? Any suggestions, or experiences to the contrary?

2. For my Roberts, 100 GC boolit over Unique, 4895, or maybe 2400. That leaves MUCH air space in the cartridge, which I think can't do anything good for accuracy.

Will the procedure for the pistol cartridge work? Fill the case to about mid-neck with filler, then use the compression of bullet seating to keep the powder where it belongs, with no mixing?

In a "smaller case" .243, 6mm, .250, I have read that fillers will raise pressures somewhat quicker than probably '06 size cases, but with a mild load of powder, will that be a serious safety concern?

Thanks.

[jh45gun]

You don't need no filler with 2400 which is why I use it. I doubt you need it with Unique either.

[Rocky Raab]

Agree completely: it is unneeded.

Worse, it is possibly dangerous in any bottlenecked case.

[atr]

+3....I shoot both the .357 Mag and the 257 Roberts also....you dont need it with either 2400 or Unique...

[Kraschenbirn]

Make that +4 for "no filler with 2400 or Unique." I've shot 2400 in my .357 sixguns since I started reloading the cartridge. Don't load the .257 Roberts, but shoot 2400 CB loads without filler in both my .30-30 and '09 Argentine Mauser (7.65x53). (Matter of fact, the Lee 312-160-2R over 18.5 gr of 2400 is the most accurate load I've tried so far for the Argie.)

4895 is a different animal, though. I use fillers with all my 4895 loads with CBs: dacron in the .308s and 7.5x55 Swiss and grits in the .303 Brit. (I've tried dacron filler in the .303, but get better accuracy using grits...no idea why.)

Bill

[Char-Gar]

1. I am agin fillers unless the powder uses up at least 60% of case capacity.

2. I am agin the natural fillers you mention because they might take on moisture and either swell up or get hard.

3. I am ok with dacron tuffs if a filler is needed.

4. When a filler is needed I much prefer Grex/PSB . Use just enough to cause a light compression. I would not use this filler with long stick powders. It is fine will ball powders or small flake.

5. I shoot lots of 2400 and don't use a filler.

6. I am agin fillers in pistol rounds.

[madsenshooter]

How much of a problem can taking on moisture be in what should be a fairly airtight cartridge? Granted the powder itself contains some moisture. I'm asking because I need to reduce the charge of 860 I'm using in my Krag under a 200gr boolit that I have to seat long. 55gr+ a 2gr kicker is like shooting my 06 and I'm not too comfy with that much recoil or velocity in my 114 year old Krag.

[LeadThrower]

I've used cream of wheat filler in the 357 for the express purpose of scrubbing out any lead. With 3 grains of Unique under 10 gr CoW under a 158 gr boolit the charge goes "puff" and the air fills with a slightly toasty aroma.

Like all the other posters, I would not use filler in the 357 for "real" loads with any powder.

[sniper]

O.K., I bow to superior knowledge and experience. Thank you all very much!

I won't worry about my Unique or 2400 loads at all, even in my rifle, but may make up a few of the light pistol loads for de-leading duty. It sounds as if they might make dandy plinking/training loads for the grandmoppets. :D

Moisture? I have several small glass jars for storage, and little packets of silica gel dessicant that come packed with things to put in with whatever I decide to use.

I guess now I can return the dacron quilt batting I "liberated" from my wife's sewing room.:p

[Calamity Jake]

Keep the Dacron batting, it makes a great filler for bottle neck rifle with fast to medium burn rate rifle powders ie. 3031, 4895, RE7 ect. In most cases it will help accuracy.

[sniper]

Keep the Dacron batting, it makes a great filler for bottle neck rifle with fast to medium burn rate rifle powders ie. 3031, 4895, RE7 ect. In most cases it will help accuracy.

Jake: How much to use? It seems like too little, and it won't secure the powder properly, especially if I'm carrying the rifle, walking around, with spare ammo on my belt.

[Char-Gar]

Madsenshooter....

1. I don't know how moisture can get in, but it has caused the filler to swell and push the bullet out of the crimp. It has also been known to harden into a plug, which can cause real pressure problems in a bottle neck case. I don't use the stuff, so this is from the reporting of others on this board over the years.

2. WC 860 is a slow machinegun ball power (50 cal). I don't use it, but I have used lots of WC 872 which is a similiar but tad slower ball powder for the 20 mm Vulcan round. I fire 50 grains of this in the Krag case, which is a slightly compressed load. I have used it with bullets up to 220 grains and it will develop 1.9 K fps out of a 22 inch barrel. Being slow, the pressure is easy on the action but continues to burn down the barrel. A hand on the barrel will confirm this, as it can get quite hot real quick. This load will duplicate the original military load and be easier on the old action to boot.

3. WC872 in the Krag case does not require a duplex load with a kicker charge to g et full ignition and a farily clean burn. I don't even use a magnum primer. I don't see how 860 would need a kicker in the Krag case.

4. I do use a 2 grain kicker of 3031 with this powder in the 45-70 case. Being a straight case, it takes it to get the fire up for a clean burn.

5. I used the same charge of 50/WC872 in the 30-06 for a velocity of 1.7 - 1.8 K fps depending on bullet weight. I use 1 cc of PSB on top of this to give slight compression. I could use a case full of powder and no PSB, but there would be more thump than I want with that much powder. BTW...this load of 50/WC 872/1 cc PSB/ Remington 9.5 primer will give all the accuracy a good 06 has, providing the bullet is well cast, proper fit and all that kind of stuff.

6. Now this WC 872 can leave a little power in the barrel, but I don't consider than an issue and the velocities is stable and accuracy is first rate. The next shot pushes out the little bit left by the previous round, so it does not accumulate. If you are shooting long strings, it may be helpful to brush out the chamber a time or two.

7. For most fun shooting in the Krag, I use 2400, but keep the velocities and pressure to the 1.4- 1.6 K fps range. These fast powder can give a sudden jolt to the old steel. When you move the pressure on up the line, best to use a slower powder.

PS: I have used PSB in the 45-70 case on top of big kernal 4759. I keep the PSB from mixing with the power I put a card wad on the powder to keep things apart. It is very, very important that this load be compressed to eliminate any air above the wad. The wad can act like a piston and compress the air in front of it, increasing pressure and possibly ringing the barrel. This is post graduate stuff and I would never recommend it to anybody as some idiots think they can cut corners here and there and might hurt themselves or damage a good rifle. No matter how careful your are and how many warnings you give, there is always some fool who thinks they know better and proceed to do something real stupid. I would never think of doing this in a bottle neck case!

[Char-Gar]

Madsenshooter....

1. I don't know how moisture can get in, but it has caused the filler to swell and push the bullet out of the crimp. It has also been known to harden into a plug, which can cause real pressure problems in a bottle neck case. I don't use the stuff, so this is from the reporting of others on this board over the years.

2. WC 860 is a slow machinegun ball power (50 cal). I don't use it, but I have used lots of WC 872 which is a similiar but tad slower ball powder for the 20 mm Vulcan round. I fire 50 grains of this in the Krag case, which is a slightly compressed load. I have used it with bullets up to 220 grains and it will develop 1.9 K fps out of a 22 inch barrel. Being slow, the pressure is easy on the action but continues to burn down the barrel. A hand on the barrel will confirm this, as it can get quite hot real quick. This load will duplicate the original military load and be easier on the old action to boot.

3. WC872 in the Krag case does not require a duplex load with a kicker charge to g et full ignition and a farily clean burn. I don't even use a magnum primer. I don't see how 860 would need a kicker in the Krag case.

4. I do use a 2 grain kicker of 3031 with this powder in the 45-70 case. Being a straight case, it takes it to get the fire up for a clean burn.

5. I used the same charge of 50/WC872 in the 30-06 for a velocity of 1.7 - 1.8 K fps depending on bullet weight. I use 1 cc of PSB on top of this to give slight compression. I could use a case full of powder and no PSB, but there would be more thump than I want with that much powder. BTW...this load of 50/WC 872/1 cc PSB/ Remington 9.5 primer will give all the accuracy a good 06 has, providing the bullet is well cast, proper fit and all that kind of stuff.

6. Now this WC 872 can leave a little power in the barrel, but I don't consider than an issue and the velocities is stable and accuracy is first rate. The next shot pushes out the little bit left by the previous round, so it does not accumulate. If you are shooting long strings, it may be helpful to brush out the chamber a time or two.

7. For most fun shooting in the Krag, I use 2400, but keep the velocities and pressure to the 1.4- 1.6 K fps range. These fast powder can give a sudden jolt to the old steel. When you move the pressure on up the line, best to use a slower powder.

[Calamity Jake]

Jake: How much to use? It seems like too little, and it won't secure the powder properly, especially if I'm carrying the rifle, walking around, with spare ammo on my belt.

The dacron I have is in sheet form about 1/2 in thick, I cut 1/2 wide strips the ful length
of the sheet.
After I have charged the cases and put them in a loading block I insert the eraser end of a pencil in the case(30 Cal and up) with it resting on top of the powder then mark it at the case mouth, I cut the aprox. 1/2X1/2 square dacron strips that long and push in the case until the end is just below the mouth, them seat boolits, this slighty compresses the filler and keeps powder where it should be.

There are threads here about using the pillow stuffing type of dacron, do a search for dacron fillers for more info.

[Larry Gibson]

Jake: How much to use? It seems like too little, and it won't secure the powder properly, especially if I'm carrying the rifle, walking around, with spare ammo on my belt.

Definately keep the dacron and use it as suggested with the powders suggested. It is a "filler". As such it will "secure" the powder properly if you use enough. I use 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1/14 and 1 1/2 gr of it depending on the cartridge and volume to be "filled". The key is to fill the volume. Do not tamp it down on top of the powder. Just push it in so it is down to the base of the cartridge neck.

I do not use a filler with any powders faster than 4227, 4759, 4198 or 5744 and with smaller cases do not use one with these powders either. With most medium or slow burning powders 1/2 gr filler of dacron works for most all cartridges up through .308W capacity. The 1/2 or a 3/4 gr filler works in cases up through '06. The 1 to 1 1/2 gr fillers work in the larger capacity cases. I seldom use a filler if the powder fills 85%+ of the powder capacity of the case.

Over the years I've tried many different fillers including the cereal types mentioned. None of them have ever worked as well as the dacron filler. Most of the cereal fillers, in recent pressure tests show a marked increases in preasure with little gain in accuracy. Use the dacron.

Larry Gibson

[35 Whelen]

How much of a problem can taking on moisture be in what should be a fairly airtight cartridge? Granted the powder itself contains some moisture. I'm asking because I need to reduce the charge of 860 I'm using in my Krag under a 200gr boolit that I have to seat long. 55gr+ a 2gr kicker is like shooting my 06 and I'm not too comfy with that much recoil or velocity in my 114 year old Krag.

I've always wondered this too. I mean, Cream of Wheat comes in a dad-blamed cardboard box and in my experience doesn't take on moisture. Mine never clumped, swelled or hardened. 'Sides, where I live here in N. Texas, today the humidity is 7...yes SEVEN percent!!
Another point to ponder: If cartridges can take on moisture, to me black powder cartridges would be extremely susceptible, yet I've never heardof old black powder cartridges not firing.
35W

[bcp477]

It ISN'T about whether a cereal filler will take on moisture while INSIDE a loaded cartridge - the answer to that is, very little, if at all. The moisture and clumping issue has to do with the static moisture level of the material, BEFORE it is loaded into a cartridge. If the moisture level is high enough, then the material WILL clump together, under pressure....such as inside a bottle-necked cartridge case when fired. If you don't believe it, then take some cereal filler right out of the box....Cream of Wheat, or whatever.....and press it together under pressure.... not just the pressure of squeezing it with your hand....but real pressure. You'll see. The way around this is to lower the moisture content of the material as much as possible, before using it as filler. So, if you must use cereal filler, just bake it under low heat for a while first - then store it in airtight containers, at consistent temperatures. Better yet, skip the cereal fillers altogether and just use dacron or cotton wool, as has already been suggested.

[waksupi]

I have had experience with COW in bottle neck cartridges. In many cases, there would be a hard ring of the material left in the shoulder area, that was difficult to get scraped loose. If you should miss one with this compaction, you will have reduced powder space on your next loading, and increased pressures. I will not use it, or any other cereal grains fillers in the future. Poly is safer, if you must use a filler.

[Whitetailer]

"I've used cream of wheat filler in the 357 for the express purpose of scrubbing out any lead. With 3 grains of Unique under 10 gr CoW under a 158 gr boolit the charge goes "puff" and the air fills with a slightly toasty aroma."

That was interesting. Did a bit of testing with Model 94 30-30. Win primer, very moderate powder charge, 22.5 Gr COW, 170 Gr CB. Pulled CB and COW was compressed quite hard but it broke up as soon as any force with a pen knife was inserted. Loaded 10 as above and 10 with same charges w/o COW. At the range loads w/o COW averaged 1271 FPS, greatest spread in velocity was 16 FPS. Loads with COW averaged 1193 greatest spread 19 FPS. COW loads shot about one inch lower. Barrel checked after each 5 shot string. Pretty clean with non COW, using 700X. Squeaky clean with COW.

I took a look at the COW using 30 power light scope. It is very angular in shape like crushed rock with many sharp edges. I examined the cases and I could see streaks in the fouling inside the case mouth. The non COW cases showed nothing.

I'll continue with testing using COW, I prefer to have known weights with known compression inside my cases.