Tale of the Sharps

[Efavreau]

Tale of the C. Sharps

In about 1994 I ordered a C. Sharps pattern Sharps Model 1874 from C. Sharps in Montana. I ordered the gun in 50 X 140 Caliber because “bigger is better” . When I ordered the gun I ordered it with the 34” heavy barrel and I ordered the full length 4 power scope. I also ordered Eladorado (?) casings I have since ordered some Bell brass. I also ordered some 640 gr and 550 gr bullets. I decided to use black powder substitutes because of the mess involved in cleaning regular black powder. I have trimmed the brass to 3.25 inches. Some of the brass had a case head that was to thick so it had to be thinned to chamber correctly. I Loaded with the 640 bullets using 120 gr. Of American Pioneer powder. I found that at 50 yards the bullets were tumbling and hitting sideways. I Called C. Sharps and was told to switch to the 550 gr. Bullet. They sent me some 550 gr gas checked bullets which were better. I have been trying Buffalo bullets in 530 flat based bullets. They mick out at .512. I e-mailed C. Sharps and they assured me that the barrel is .512 and that I should set the bullet 1/16 inch from the rifling . The gun has a one in 26“ twist.. I have loaded a number of cart. Using 100 gr of American Pioneer powder. I use an over powder card wad and felt wads to fill the casing. I have in the past tried Triple Seven powder and the results were all over the paper. I read about using smokeless powder and contacted Accurate Arms to get loads for there Accurate 5477 powder. I loaded several boxes with varying loads from the loads provided. The results were unimpressive. I did not use wads in the smokeless loads as per Accurate Arms. I am now at a loss as to were to next. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Emmett

[MT Chambers]

By not using real black powder, you are all around the issue, most of the powders mentioned are pretty much useless in that case. My C. Sharps 50/90 uses the Badger Bl. as all late model c. sharps do and is deadly with 540 gr. Lyman bullets and a full case of 1 1/2fg Swiss (100grs.)
You only have yourself to blame for this one.

[montana_charlie]

When you posted this saga on the 'Single Shot' forum, they told you to use black powder.
Now you have come to the 'Black Powder Cartridge' forum where you are even more likely to be told to use black powder...in that BPCR shooter.

You avoided black in the past (you said) because of the 'mess involved in cleaning'. Have you experienced that?
You might find it to something of a myth...rather than a mess.

(Say that real fast three times and you could start sounding like Barney Frank...)
CM

[rhbrink]

Yep! MT Chambers is right, get some real powder, black of course and you'll be suprised how well that rifle will shoot. You didn't mention lube but that in itself is a big issue.

[Efavreau]

You seem to be right. I have loaded ammo for 50 years and now find that I do not know anything about loading black powder. I am on a steep learnig curve so any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Can I assume that the gun mikes out at .512. I am having the gun slugged to be sure. The gun has a twist rate of 1 to 26". What bullet would stablize best? Where is the best place to buy them? Which powder would be best. I have 2 lbs of Goex Cartridge powder or should I use the 1 1/2 Swiss? Again any help would be greatly appreciagtaed.
Emmett

[Efavreau]

I have a Hawkin 50 cap and ball and heve used the hot water method. I have been reading a lot a lot the care and feeding of a BPCR Th
thanks to all and will acept any help offered.
Thanks
Emmett

[August]

Use black powder. That's what the big, old boys were made to do.

[SharpsShooter]

Black powder is the answer to your questions. Also, have you slugged the bore to
determine the proper diameter boolit you need? Just because C. Sharps says .512”
is no reason to skip this important item.



1. Use Black Powder.

2. Ues a boolit cast of at least 20:1 alloy that is .002” over bore diameter.

3. Use Black Powder Boolit Lube. Not Smokeless!

4. Use a blow tube

5. Use water to clean.


You need to be using Goex Cartridge or Swiss 1f.

Start with 130 grains by weight, add a .030” Walters veggie wad and compress to the
required depth to allow the boolit to be seated and not leave any airspace. Light it
off with a Federal 215 Primer. That will be good starting point.


There are many magic cleaning elixirs, but water worked for the buffalo hunters and
it will work for you too.

Clean-up

1. Run wet patches through the bore with a proper size jag until the patch comes
out almost as clean as it went in.

2. Run dry patches through the bore until they come out dry. See how easy this is?

3. Spray WD-40 down the bore until runs out and do the same into the breechblock
recesses.

4. Wipe off excess and you are done.

You can put a smokeless gun up faster, but you cannot clean it that fast.


SS

[Freightman]

I think in a cartrage that large real Black is your best bet, in fact anything over a 45/70 reallly needs black in my not to informed opinion.

[e15cap]

Emmett, Get thee to the Shiloh Sharps Forum and all will be revealed to you. Start by searching 50-140.
best, Roger

[missionary5155]

Good eveining
I did not see if it was mentioned the hardness of the boolits ? My old Trapdoor shoots much better with a soft boolit that fits the groove.
I would also slug the throat area and be SURE what it is.
That sure will be a THUMPER once she gets firing right.
Mike in Peru

[marlinman93]

1-26" is a pretty slow twist rate for a 540 gr. bullet! I think you better drop down to around 415-425 grs. if you ever expect to get that .50 cal. to shoot with that twist. Lyman makes a 515-141 that drops a bullet of 425 grs. and should do much better for you.

[BPCR Bill]

If you do a little research you will find that in most cases the BP substitutes are much more corrosive than the real thing, and I found early on, nearly 20 years ago, that the substitutes are just as messy to clean up. Lots of folks get lulled into thinking they don't need to clean a rifle right away with the fake BP, and they get ruined pitted barrels in a few days. Those cartridges are made to shoot Black Powder, and shoot it they will. I hope you enjoy the recoil.

Regards,
Bill

[13Echo]

In the 50 cal a 1:26 will easily stabilize a 540gr bullet and heavier. Croft Barker uses a 600 gr bullet as his match load in a 50-70 with a 1:26 twist barrel, and he is a Master class shooter.

Jerry Liles

[marlinman93]

In the 50 cal a 1:26 will easily stabilize a 540gr bullet and heavier. Croft Barker uses a 600 gr bullet as his match load in a 50-70 with a 1:26 twist barrel, and he is a Master class shooter.

Jerry Liles

I'm sure that will work fine in a .50-70, but I still think it's the wrong bullet for a .50-140, as the twist rate and amount of powder are not right for that large case. The .50-140 was not originally designed to shoot bullets that heavy. It's original load was 470 gr. lead.

[13Echo]

The 50-140 is an aberration. While it may have been chambered in Sharps rifles it is not listed in any Sharp's catalog. Winchester loaded for the cartridge with a 473gr bullet, however, according to COW, it was often handloaded with 700gr paper patched bullets. The lighter bullet would have been an express load. I don't know what the twist of the Sharps would have been but If around 1:36 it would have been better with the lighter bullet. I really suspect the cartridge will perform better with a heavier bullet, at least as far as efficient powder burn. However it's loaded it's going to be a bruiser.

Jerry Liles

[Lead pot]

The .50-3.25 is a mistake gun any way!
Dont make the mistake shooting anything but black powder in it!

[MT Chambers]

The only fellow I know of that shoots a 50-140 uses felt wads under the bullet to reduce capacity down to 90 grains or so, saves money and recoil, surprisingly it shoots real well that way!!

[NickSS]

Except for a couple of shots I have no experience with the 50-140 caliber but I do shoot a C Sharps 50-70 and it is quite accurate with several different bullets. I use only one powder charge for all of them and it is 70 gr of FFG GOEX. I have shot nothing else in this rifle since new. The slug I use is mostly the Lyman 425gr slug except with the 30-1 alloy I use it weighs closer to 445 gr. I Shot a buffalo with this load last fall and it died fast with a clean through shot. I enjoyed a buffalo roast tonight for dinner in fact.

[Efavreau]

My thanks to all who have responded to my query regarding my 50 X 140 Sharps. To recap it is a C. Sharps in 50 X 140 caliber with a 34 inch heavy barrel with a full length scope. If I have heard all of you correctly I need to be shooting Black powder. Either Swiss 1 ½ F or Goex cartridge grade. I need to use a full case with no air space. There needs to be a card over the powder wad then a grease cookie then a wad over that with a newsprint wad over that then the bullet seated with slight compression without a crimp in fact maybe still leave some of the bell on the mouth. The bullet needs to be .001 - .002 over bore diameter using 1-20 or 1-30 mix lead lubed with a black power lube (SPG). The 1 in 26” twist seems to indicate that the bullet needs to weigh either less than 500 gr or more than 550 gr. (no clear information here) The bullet needs to be seated about 1/16” from the rifling. Cleanup of the rifle must be done ASAP using Ballistol and water. Casings should be immediately placed in a solution of either soap and water or vinegar and water or Windex and water. Then should be brushed out inside then dried and tumble polished. I am still not sure about the resizing of the casings. As mentioned above the casings need to be belled slightly before seating the bullet. If I am on the right tract please let me know- if not where do I need to adjust my thinking to get a starting point to load this monster.
Thanks Emmett

[cajun shooter]

You are wrong about the cleaning of BP having to be done ASAP. That's false. I have shot many a CAS Frontier Cartridge match and not cleaned the guns till two days later with no ill effects. The false info about BP could fill a deuce and half. The subs you use will start to corrode a gun right after firing. I had a new shooter ask me at the last match why I would chose to shoot something that was so hard to clean and that was destroying my guns. I shook my head and started to educate the newbie.

[Ron B.]

You may wish to experiment with IMR'S (Hodgdon) Trail Boss powder. I use it a lot in my 45-70s, 45-120s, and 50-70s. There's not much load data out there; so you'll need to play with it a little.

Another idea;
I cookie cut styrofoam wads, using my brass to do so. No melting at low velocities.

You can find load data info at IMR'S web site. In fact, even for the 50-140!
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Play safe!
GRB

[waksupi]

I agree about the cleaning. The BP substitutes are MUCH more corrosive than black powder!

[powderburnerr]

on my rifle I found that the lighter bullets would tend to strip.. my load was 140 gns of 1F goex drop tubed and compressed and a 650 gg bullet or a 700 gn pp bullet . The grease groove bullet seated deep in the case and required a lot of powder compression , the paper patch bullet took some less as the bullet started out under bore size ,

It is an intense cartridge to load for and a lot of the rifles had a smooth section in front of the rifling to contend with . they called it freebore I called a pita. but they do shoot pretty good if you take the time to do it right ......Dean

[Dale53]

Emmett;
The first thing you need to do is get a couple of books. Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe's book ("The Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer") and Mike's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" will do fine for you.

Getting all of the information off the net can be frustrating (do this, do that, etc). The books have everything organized well so as each question pops up you have a place to turn.

Steve Garbe and Mike Venturino both have "been there and done that" at the National Championship level plus serious hunting with these rifles. Get the books, study them, then do what they tell you to do.

These rifles were made to shoot black powder. You are only doing a disservice to yourself trying to use smokeless and substitutes. Clean up is ridiculously easy. Not a problem at all. I have many rifles and handguns and shoot smokeless AND black where appropriate. Give the rifle and yourself a chance and use only black in the big boomer. Couple this with a good black powder bullet lube and things will go well.

One thing you should know - shooting a black powder cartridge rifle almost REQUIRES casting your own bullets.

Here is a reference for the books:

http://www.blackpowderspg.com/mlvbooks.html#3

Dale53

[wills]

http://www.cisternpublishing.org/Books.html

[EDK]

Go to shilohrifle.com/forums and do searches for bobw. My buddy Bob shoots a 50/140 at the Quigley shoot and "scares off the timid and the rattlesnakes" as well as removing the dust from his area of the firing line.

I shoot a 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS with a 620 grain BROOKS grease groove boolit and need to get busy with my adjustable length KALYNUIK paper patch mould. My best results have used GOEX CARTRIDGE.

Cleaning is easy with a couple of diluted WINDEX (WITH VINEGAR...NOT THE BLUE WITH AMMONIA!!) and water patches, followed by a oily patch with BALLISTOL (from Powderburnerr!) A lot of people now use the ceramic media to clean their casings...available from most major suppliers of black powder cartridge rifle goodies.

Hit the black powder cartridge rifle forums and do some reading. Study the basics and fine tune your reloading. Black powder isn't that hard...it's just different from smokeless!

:cbpour::redneck:

[RMulhern]

The 1-26 ROT will stabilize a 720 gr. bullet with NO PROBLEM!! Your best bullet is more than likely going to be a 650 gr.!!

[Gellot Wilde]

Well it's all been said and +1 to anyone advising you to stick with black powder.

Those 'difficult to clean up myths' are often the work of smokeless shooters who find even that difficult to clean up. You will soon find that BP clean up is far, far easier than modern rifles.

[wonderwolf]

I've been doing all sorts of searching myself for the 50-140 as I recently acquired one myself (more can be read on the Shiloh forum than about anywhere else, I post there as well). I've never considered shooting anything else in it other than "real" blackpowder. As for projectiles I've case a few plain base 515gr bullets and plan on shooting trying them out this weekend if the weather breaks.

Info on the "big fifty" is kind of hard to come by, from what I've been able to discern only trust the info of that given to you from people who have only loaded one or somebody who has seen 1st hand the results of somebody elses experiments with it. And load only real blackpowder, with a cartridge this big don't mess with anything else.

I'll let you know how it goes after the weekend.

[Gunlaker]

Tale of the C. Sharps

In about 1994 I ordered a C. Sharps pattern Sharps Model 1874 from C. Sharps in Montana. I ordered the gun in 50 X 140 Caliber because “bigger is better” . When I ordered the gun I ordered it with the 34” heavy barrel and I ordered the full length 4 power scope. I also ordered Eladorado (?) casings I have since ordered some Bell brass. I also ordered some 640 gr and 550 gr bullets. I decided to use black powder substitutes because of the mess involved in cleaning regular black powder. I have trimmed the brass to 3.25 inches. Some of the brass had a case head that was to thick so it had to be thinned to chamber correctly. I Loaded with the 640 bullets using 120 gr. Of American Pioneer powder. I found that at 50 yards the bullets were tumbling and hitting sideways. I Called C. Sharps and was told to switch to the 550 gr. Bullet. They sent me some 550 gr gas checked bullets which were better. I have been trying Buffalo bullets in 530 flat based bullets. They mick out at .512. I e-mailed C. Sharps and they assured me that the barrel is .512 and that I should set the bullet 1/16 inch from the rifling . The gun has a one in 26“ twist.. I have loaded a number of cart. Using 100 gr of American Pioneer powder. I use an over powder card wad and felt wads to fill the casing. I have in the past tried Triple Seven powder and the results were all over the paper. I read about using smokeless powder and contacted Accurate Arms to get loads for there Accurate 5477 powder. I loaded several boxes with varying loads from the loads provided. The results were unimpressive. I did not use wads in the smokeless loads as per Accurate Arms. I am now at a loss as to were to next. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Emmett

Hi Emmett,

I don't have a lot of information to add, but I just picked up a C. Sharps 1874 in .50-140. The guy I bought it from didn't want to share all of the details on the loads he was using (I guess he didn't want to spoil the fun), but I shot a few of them @ 100 yards today and they didn't keyhole. Accuracy wasn't great, but I'm just getting used to the gun.

Here is all I know about the loads, they used real black :-), a 625gr NEI bullet (as far as I can tell mould #510-625-GC-DD). They only measure 0.511" interestingly. Lube was SPG.

Chris.

[singleshotman]

i've read lots of articles about this "Winchester" NOT SHARPS cartridge and they all did the same thing-gave up on it.It's just overbored for black powder and way too big for any kind of a smokeless load. I'd either rebarrel it or shorten it and rechamber it for the 50-90.As a matter of fact the .45-120-550 has the same problem as the 50-140, that's why Sharps NEVER made such a big shell, it won't work either.

[Pathfinder1cav]

Emmett,
No experience with a .50 (other than ML's), but all my BPCR's prefer Real BP- Goex cartridge works OK. I have had terrible results in comparison with the substitutes AND as noted above, they are not easier to clean IMHO...
A little trick that I have used regarding cleaning- when done shooting, take a mouthful (maybe two) of water & blow it down the barrel with your blow tube- then run a couple patches... reduces the cleaning by half.
I usually wipe between shots with a damp patch and clean up is then usually a couple of wet patches, a dry & a finish oil patch- easier than with white powder!
Also, if you use some vinegar in your brass cleaning solution, don't let it set more than about 10-15 min. or the acetic acid starts to eat away at the zinc in the brass.

[BPCR Bill]

Emmett,
I don't know where you got the idea for a grease cookie under the boolit, but that is something that is done fpr paper patch boolits. If you are shooting grease groove boolits you should not need a grease cookie at all. A cookie will just add to fouling in the spout and may hinder chambering a round.
Take a look at your expander die plug. Is it a straight step type expander or flared? If straight stepped, mike the larger diameter and compare that to your final boolit diameter. It should allow starting the boolit in the case mouth with your fingers. Hand seat the boolit to the card wad. If you are compressing the powder charge, you can use the expander plug for that, a double duty device if you will. Compress the powder first, then seat the boolit on the card wad.
It appears you are on the right track, so don't get frustrated. We can give you advice all day, but with Black Powder Cartridge it can get mysterious at times. You need to have patience and a willingness to try different steps in this hobby. Keep records of powder charge, compression, sizing techniques ( I do not size my cases, just expand and uniform the case mouths). Leaving the case mouth slightly flared or applying a slight roll crimp.
C. Sharps says to seat the boolit out to 1/16" off the rifling, so that will give you a start to case OAL. Have you done a chamber cast? That will give you a very good illustration of how long the chamber is and the throat area dimensions. Keep plugging away at it!
I did own a 50-90-2 1/2" Sharps Buisness Rifle, one of my first rifles for this sport. Unfortunatley in my beginners fog, I bought a rifle that was just too light (9 1/2 pounds) for that cartridge. I now have a heavy (14 pounds) 45-110-2 7/8" that shoots a 550 grain boolit. The recoil ain't half as bad, so you were wise to get a hefty rifle.
Back to the clean up part, I know a gunsmith shop that spends alot of time cleaning rifles for customers. Modern smokless sporting rifles. I think some folks out there are just plumb lazy or too stupid to clean a rifle. I can spend just as much time (If not more) properly cleaning a 30-'06 bolt gun as I can any of my Sharps or Highwalls. The only difference is timing. Get that BP rifle cleaned promptly after shooting.

Regards,
Bill

[Grogan]

I can't directly address the issues you're going to have with a .50-140 cartridge other than to repeat what I've heard of it being "too much of a good thing".

(And, if I could, I'd seek to "make it into" a .50-70 or a .50-2.5")

However I can relate the little I know of the .50-2.5" .

In 2007 I happened to be passing by Big Timber, MT and stopped in at both rifle maker's locations (within sight of each other at the opposite ends of the short street).

At Montana Armory (C. Sharps) I was delighted to find a beautiful (though "plain") '74 Sharps Heavy Barrelled rifle (typical "Buffalo Gun") sitting on the rack begging to go home with me.

Knowing what it often takes to get one of these "Heavy" examples when custom ordered (sometimes years!), I decided to let it ride along back home.

Mine, like your's, has a Badger 1:26" twist and I wasn't certain what boolits would work best? The folks at C. Sharps gave me a box of 640g NEI pattern boolits and I brought those along and ended up loading them up and shooting them. They worked just fine! :wink:

However since Walt's death and NEI moving away from my area and back to TX, I could no longer go over there and have a mould cut for me while I waited.

So now what?

I contacted Paul Jones and discussed it with him. He felt that his 650g boolit would most likely work o.k. in my barrel, but just to be on the cautious side, I ordered the 600g mould. It casts BEAUTIFUL boolits, and I can report that they appear to shoot very well in my rifle also.

Further checking on "what else" I'd need to make my Big 50 work, after researching, reading and discussing this with others it seemed as though the bulk of "successful" shooters of these large cases were using GOEX (1) Fg Express.

That's what I've loaded so far.

My base loads have all been 105g and fairly substantially compressed (more so with the 640g boolits!).

Both the 640s and 600s seem to work equally as well. But so far I've only used this rifle on a 200 yd. range (because that's where we have the metallic targets set up).

This rifle has the rather crude Sharps "Sporting Tang" Rear Sight on it, the early model, with the sliding bar and fairly coarse peep in it. It doesn't possess the fine graduations and vernier scale of good "Target" grade sights.

However it does appear to be good enough for "Minute of Ram", every shot, at least at 200 yds.

So far there are NO problems with excessive powder fouling. NO problems with Leading or excessive Lead residues left in the bore. It cleans up easily with 2-3 wet patches, 2-3 dry patches, and a lube patch run down the bore until next time.

I'm using a home made lube that consists of Olive Oil/Beeswax, ratio adjusted for viscosity, with a slight amount of Wintergreen Oil thrown in as a preservative.

Hope this helps?

Here's what I'm talking about and some shots of it taken the other day.

The Big Boomer here...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Sharps501-11-082-1.jpg

A fresh batch of 600g boolits just cast up. :castmine:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/BPCR600g150CalSharpsBullets.jpg

Loading and shooting same...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Sharps504-16-098.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/billc_sbio/BillCs_GunPics/Sharps504-16-097.jpg

:drinks:

[docone31]

That is a rifle to be proud of!
Take good care of her.
Absolutely looks about right.

[wrcook]

That is a very fine rifle..... one to enjoy.

Black Powder all the way. I started out almost 40 years ago shooting black in my muzzel loadrers and my cartridge guns. I cleaned them just like "the old timers" and those that I still have are just as good as they were then. I briefly tried those repro black powders, primarily because black was hard to get where i was. I have never been satisfied with any of the "repro blacks" I always keep returning to real black. Unless black becomes impossible to get I will probably never use the repro powders.

Long live the white smoke of purity

Bill C