Casting for a Micro Groove barrel?

[mikenbarb]

I just got a Marlin 336C lever action in .35 Remington and im looking to start casting for it. My biggest concern is the Micro Groove rifling and the boolit hardness. I never cast for this style rifling before and im hearing mixed opinions with the boolit hardness and best velocity. Im wondering what velocity and BHN you guys are having success with and im thinking the harder the better with boolits shooting at a slower 1500-1600fps velocity. I can make any alloy but I have a ton of Lyman #2 alloy made up already and I also have straight linotype and WW ingots. All the shooting will be 100yds and under but I also want to use it for deer hunting with cast. Im going to be using a Lyman 358315 mold with gas checks. Thanks in advance, Mike
I posted a pic of my first group on pg 2.

[jimkim]

Ranch Dog loads his bullets(21 BHN) to full jacketed velocities. I don't know if that answers your question adequately, but it should give you an idea of what is possible. This might help too. http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?topic=7180.0 Notice the performance of the 12 BHN bullets. I think with micro-grooves the magic hardness is between 18-21. More important than hardness is bullet diameter. With my Marlin 30-30 bigger is better.

[rhbrink]

Look at Ranchdog molds, his bullets are designed for micro-groove rifling and work very well! I'm very pleased with mine!

[pumpguy]

Ditto to what jimkim said. Cast 'em fat and get after it. I load my 30-30s at .311 and my .35s at.360.

[mikenbarb]

Im gonna check out his molds. Thanks much.

[jlchucker]

I cast for 35 Remington and use a .358 Lyman sizer. The bullets I've used are the Lyman 358315 and the RCBS 35-200. Both bullets have worked well in my Marlins, as well as the Marlins of relatives and close friends. The .358 sizer is what I started with, back about 30 years ago because I was new to casting, and the old Lyman manual that I got at the time listed that sizer as the most useful. Since I only cast for rifles, I've never bought a bigger one. I ended up selling the Lyman Mold recently, but it casts an accurate bullet and hits critters pretty hard. I just think that the RCBS 200 is great for my levergun needs. However, after reading threads on the subject in this website, I think I need to get a couple of bigger sizers. If I were starting all over with the 35, I'd most likely go with the Ranchdog mold and sizer for that caliber. That microgroove issue though is, IMO overblown. Those Microgroove barrels have never posed problems for me in 30-30, 45-70, and 35 Remmies.

[mikenbarb]

jl, What alloy and velocity are you shooting the Lyman boolit at? Im using the same mold and wondering what a good starting point is.

[gon2shoot]

With the RCBS and RD both I match (somewhat) the BHN and the desired velosity, like 1600 fps. use 16 BHN, 1800 fps. use 18 BHN. Sized .359 BTW

I have absolutely no testing or scientific reasoning behind this, It's just somthing I tried and seems to work. [smilie=f:

[jlchucker]

jl, What alloy and velocity are you shooting the Lyman boolit at? Im using the same mold and wondering what a good starting point is.

Most often I use wheelweights mixed about 9 lb ww and 1 lb. lead. Sometimes, after I've found enough range pickups at my gun club, I melt those down into ingots, and use these also, mixed 9 to 1 with pure lead. I've never had a leading problem with this mix, which I use in most everything. I don't own a chrony, but the shop where I buy most gun stuff and powder does, and one 45-70 load was chronographed at around 1875 fps once. That one was with a roundnose, gascheck 45-70 bullet. No leading in my rifle, or in a Ruger # 1 owned by a friend who loaded those bullets a bit hotter. I usually load 30-30, 35 Rem, 45-70, and 44 magnum a bit lighter than what I had that particular day. I lube with Javalina Alox, usually, but have used the Lee and Lyman alox as well and have found no difference. My 35 rem loads, based on published data extracted from AA, Hornaday jacketed data, and the Lyman loading manuals, I would estimate to be somewhere between 1600 and 1900 fps. I don't try to load hot--just try for an accurate deer load. With the 35, that's not a tough thing to find.

[Rodfac]

I've had good luck using straight WW, cast .002" larger than groove size and gas checked in my Marlin 336, .44 Magnum with Micro-Groove rifling. I have pushed these to 1300 fps so far (chrono'd) and fired well over 100 rounds down range with virtually no cleaning.

The load was: Win 231, 8.0 gr and Lyman's 429215 GC with Lee Liquid Alox lube swirled in a butter tub as directed on the lube bottle. I used WW Superspeed brass and Winchester Lg Primers. The gas check was Hornady's crimp on.

Great load...<1" at 50 yds for five shots, with a Weaver 4x scope attached. Barrel heating has not mattered so far, but we're just getting into the warm season here in KY. These boolits were cast and shot with no real inspection. No idea as yet what would be possible with carefully sorted ones, or a more careful load work up. I've wanted a plinking and general practice round for the Marlin that would function well through my S&W M-29 Classic and this is it. The Smith will regularly put 'em into < 1.5" at 25 yds if I'm having a good day with my 63 yo eyes.

Regards, Rodfac

[45r]

My marlin 35 rem shoots ragged hole groups at 50 yards using air-cooled WW.My boolits are from a 215 grain GC Mtn Mold sized .359 and lubed with 2500 plus.I'm getting 1780 fps with 30.0 grains Vitt-133 and Fed match primers.No leading at all.

[jlchucker]

Rodfac, that 429215 is the bullet I use most in my 44 mag rifles, with the Hornaday gascheck like you describe. It's worked so well for me that I never bought another 44 mold, although I have shot heavier bullets commercially cast. Some worked nearly as well as the 429215, but none better. Pleasant to shoot, accurate, good on game, and largely ignored by a lot of handloaders.

[Rodfac]

Jlchucker...yep...it's a good boolit. My son has a 1920 vintage, round bbl'd Winchester Model 92 in .44-40 with rifling that looks grim to say the least. After cleaning it with JB bore paste for about :20, I tried 7.2 gr of Win 231. That load, and up to 7.9 gr of Win 231, will consistently put 5 shots into an inch at 50 yds.

The first group, 3 shots as sighters, were a cloverleaf at 9 o'clock about 3" left of the center. I'd mounted a tang peep on the old girl and was quite surprised to see the cluster, figuring it was a fluke. Tapping the front sight a bit to the left brought 'em right on with another 3 shot cloverleaf that was less than .5" ctr to ctr. Herco also worked well, tho with all of these loads the velocity was down below 1100 fps. As they were put up as target/practice loads, that didn't bother me. For that Model 92, I trimmed the case back to allow use of the legitimate crimping groove and still get good feeding through the action. My loading notes show that I was sizing them to .429".

It's a fine bullet and shoots extraordinarily well in every gun I've tried. Son's 5.5" SSA in .44 Special, with an extra cylinder in .44-40 loves it. My own S&W Mod 24-? with a 6.5" tube is partial to it as well. Both son's Smith .44 Mag's too. In my own Smith Model 29 Classic with it's 6.5" bbl, 7.5 gr of Win 231, with the boolit sized to .430" will do less than 1.25" @ 25yds. That size is too small for the bore of the Marlin, so my next project is to find a diameter that will allow the Marlin's superb accuracy while still allowing me to chamber the rounds in the Smith. I've found that .433" is just too big for the Model 29's chambers.

Lyman's 429215 GC is just a darned good slug. It's light weight is a plus in my opinion, allowing just that many more boolits per pound of WW. The only downer to date is that Hornady's GC, albeit at least 15 years old, will not easily slip on the heel of 429215. I've had to slightly, flare the GC using a polished ball peen hammer, lightly tapping the check using a 2nd hammer as the pounder.

My discovery recently of Lee Liquid Alox as a good lube, even with large groove Lyman cast boolits, just makes it that much better. No need to size it for the Marlin, by the way, just shoot 'em as they drop from the mold. Straight WW are good enough, so far, for up to 1300 fps from the Marlin.

Regards, Rodfac

[jlchucker]

Jlchucker...yep...it's a good boolit. My son has a 1920 vintage, round bbl'd Winchester Model 92 in .44-40 with rifling that looks grim to say the least. After cleaning it with JB bore paste for about :20, I tried 7.2 gr of Win 231. That load, and up to 7.9 gr of Win 231, will consistently put 5 shots into an inch at 50 yds.

The first group, 3 shots as sighters, were a cloverleaf at 9 o'clock about 3" left of the center. I'd mounted a tang peep on the old girl and was quite surprised to see the cluster, figuring it was a fluke. Tapping the front sight a bit to the left brought 'em right on with another 3 shot cloverleaf that was less than .5" ctr to ctr. Herco also worked well, tho with all of these loads the velocity was down below 1100 fps. As they were put up as target/practice loads, that didn't bother me. For that Model 92, I trimmed the case back to allow use of the legitimate crimping groove and still get good feeding through the action. My loading notes show that I was sizing them to .429".

It's a fine bullet and shoots extraordinarily well in every gun I've tried. Son's 5.5" SSA in .44 Special, with an extra cylinder in .44-40 loves it. My own S&W Mod 24-? with a 6.5" tube is partial to it as well. Both son's Smith .44 Mag's too. In my own Smith Model 29 Classic with it's 6.5" bbl, 7.5 gr of Win 231, with the boolit sized to .430" will do less than 1.25" @ 25yds. That size is too small for the bore of the Marlin, so my next project is to find a diameter that will allow the Marlin's superb accuracy while still allowing me to chamber the rounds in the Smith. I've found that .433" is just too big for the Model 29's chambers.

Lyman's 429215 GC is just a darned good slug. It's light weight is a plus in my opinion, allowing just that many more boolits per pound of WW. The only downer to date is that Hornady's GC, albeit at least 15 years old, will not easily slip on the heel of 429215. I've had to slightly, flare the GC using a polished ball peen hammer, lightly tapping the check using a 2nd hammer as the pounder.

My discovery recently of Lee Liquid Alox as a good lube, even with large groove Lyman cast boolits, just makes it that much better. No need to size it for the Marlin, by the way, just shoot 'em as they drop from the mold. Straight WW are good enough, so far, for up to 1300 fps from the Marlin.

Regards, Rodfac

I've never had that problem with my Horaday checks. The last time I bought some was about 10 years ago. I put mine on using the gascheck seating gizmo that came with my Lyman 450 lube press. I size and lube as a second step. They do seem to go on square and stay on.

I need to try that Lee liquid alox like you do, instead of sizing them .430. Maybe I can get a one-hole group that way. Those who don't use this bullet don't know what they are missing IMO. Like you say, more shots per pound of alloy, too.

[Frank]

Look at Ranchdog molds, his bullets are designed for micro-groove rifling and work very well! I'm very pleased with mine!

Could you explain exactly how RD's bullets are designed for micro-groove rifling?

[Freightman]

[QUOTE=Frank;542104]Could you explain exactly how RD's bullets are designed for micro-groove rifling?[/QUOTE
Go to the bottom of the page and click on his site it has the reason and how on the first page. I will add his service is fast and courteous.

[Frank]

I looked at it. All I see related to the microgroove is size. It's larger size is designed to work with the shallow rifling of the microgroove. Is that correct? I don't want to hear about how it functions in a lever rifle. Specifically, just how it works in a microgroove. How it is 'designed' for a microgroove. Just a simple answer to my question.

[Bret4207]

Uh, Frank are you trying to be rude or are you accidentally coming across that way?

[felix]

As much bearing surface as is possible without giving up too much energy at intended targeting distance. ... felix

No problem, Bret. It seems Frank is not familiar with the Loverin style. ... felix

[Frank]

Ok, so if I take a 300 grn Beartooth .432 bullet and i put it side by side with the Lee (RD) bullet the Lee bullet will have more bearing surface. Is that correct?

[felix]

No, not exactly, because the sum of lengths of the metal that touches the lands, as a ratio to the the total length of the entire boolit, is the design factor. More the percentage, more the merrier. A full wadcutter is the very best, right? Yeah, but the ballistic factor goes south. So, a compromise must be taken, depending on potential killing power versus potential long range accuracy. ... felix

[EDK]

The conventional wisdom has been that the micro groove MARLINS will shoot with a hard cast boolit, a gas check, a fairly large bearing surface, sized around .432 or larger, and pushed to higher velocities.

429215, 429244 and the Ranch Dog designs have all worked for me in either micro groove or ballard rifling 1894s. LARS 50/50 ALOX and harder lubes for conventional boolits; dipping ALOX, per the Ranch Dog tutorial, for his designs.

You may have to do some experimenting, but that is what casting and reloading is about. Ranch Dog has saved a lot of people lots of time and money with his research and cheerfully shared data.

Hey Frank...is micro groove rifling available in anything bigger than a 22 LR besides a lever gun?

"Boys, boys...we're all friends here....let's act like it." Mark Harmon in Crossfire Trail.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Frank]

Here's the 300 grn Beartooth sitting in the Lee (RD) mold. It looks like a toss-up to me. What do you think?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=666

[Frank]

"Boys, boys...we're all friends here....let's act like it." Mark Harmon in Crossfire Trail.

Everybody's fne here. Just having a discussion. Felix knows how to play.

429215, 429244 and the Ranch Dog designs have all worked for me in either micro groove or ballard rifling 1894s.
How has it 'worked' for you? Could you post a picture of some of those results that were done at 100 yards? Look forward to seeing your pics.

[Bret4207]

Felix is a gentleman and I've never seen him take offense at anything, even when he should have.

[Frank]

Thanks guys. That's all I needed to know. :-D

[44man]

Well from all I read here, the Marlin still likes a light boolit like the 210 Lyman. But who wants to hunt with a hard, light, small meplat boolit?
Everyone keeps saying the Marlin groups great at 50 yd's, well, so does mine with about any boolit. It is out to 100 and beyond that interests a few of us. We also want to use a decent, large meplat heavy boolit.
I can't sit here at my keyboard and spread butter on the stupidest rate of twist I ever encountered.
I can live with micro groove or the false Ballard rifling that is the same depth as the micro groove that actually gives less bite to cast then the micro groove does.
This .44 rifle has started more posts and replies then any other gun in history but I have yet to see proof of the great groups some claim at 100 yd's!
There are two words I hate to read the most--"shoots good."
Well this one also "shoots good" at 200 yd's! [smilie=1:

[mikenbarb]

44man, I have one of those also and it shoots good @ 200yds BUT you gotta hold 30.3' high and 13.7' to the left and do lots of praying. Hopefully it will connect with the target after all that.LOL.
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/008-10.jpg

[44man]

:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2: A man after my own heart!
Where your mistake is made, the base must be tapered to raise the back of the scope so the barrel points up higher and it will hit point of aim at 200 with a little adjustment. :drinks:
Mine is a little harder because I have to use a golf club on the ball for that last 50 yd's! :Fire:

[Thumbcocker]

Marlin .44 mag. microgroove Lyman 429244 gc acww .431 18.0 2400 4X scope sandbag rest. 5 shots sub 2" at 100.

[mikenbarb]

Heres the first group I shot with the Marlin. Its not bad but not great and I think its ok for the first try. This group is 13 rounds fired from 50yds on a bench with a peep sight. Theres a few flyers but the majority stayed in the bull. The rounds were loaded with a Lyman 358316 sized to .359(I wrote .309.LOL.), 10.8gr. Unique, Speed Green lube, Ideal GC and seated at 2.520 OAL with a light Lee factory crimp. Its a 8" pistol target.


http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/002-46.jpg