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hpdrifter
02-14-2006, 01:30 AM
I am confused.....

I purchased a Lyman 4500 LUbrisizer. Am thoroughly satisfied with it so far, except it has a propencity to bite me(falling ram on fingers). My confused confoundedness comes from the dies.

I originally purchased a .452 Lyman and a .458 RCBS(because they were out of Lyman 458's) with my sizer. The Lyman .452, for a pistol bullet has 4 sets of two almost 1/8th inch holes which spread across .350 ". With a tight fitting bullet, which it's supposed to be, I have about 1/2 thread on the ejector/adjustor with which to play. Either side of that and I get lube on the nose or on the base. I ordered a .454 Lyman not thinking about all of that cause I guess I just got real lucky and didn't notice tooo much ooze from either end of the bullet. But I can't get this one adjusted to save my life.

Now, the RCBS, made for I would suppose and guess a rifle bullet of substantially longer proportions and more lube grooves and it has only four 1/8" ports around its circumference. This die could use the extra hole. The pistol bullet dies; .452's could really stand only 1 row of holes.

Are all Lyman dies two holers and/or are all of RCBS 1 holers?

If so, I bought them bassackwards and I need to replace them vice versa.

Do the people that design these things use these things?

omgb
02-14-2006, 01:57 AM
With the dies you mention, the number of holes should not pose a problem. The center push rod's depth of travel into the die is what dtermins how much lube is added and exactly where it is placed. The number of holes shouldn't matter much.

hpdrifter
02-14-2006, 08:28 AM
Well, it sure seems to.

Dale53
02-14-2006, 12:08 PM
The Star lube/sizer has a neat feature that you might want to incorporate in your Lyman dies. the lube holes thru the die are two diameter - small diameter next to the bullet and larger next to the outside of the die. if you want the plug one/some of the holes, you merely drop a lead shot of the appropriate size in the hole. It plugs the hole but is easily removed should you change bullets or you mind. It would require some minor drilling (only drill half way).

Another thing, before you try to do any drilling, is to try lubing that problem bullet upside down. You can use a flat faced punch and push the bullet through the die nose first. Quite often the lube groove in the bullet will now align better (you may need to stick your tongue out the side of your mouth when adjusting this :razz: - that sometimes helps...)

FWIW
Dale53

Maven
02-14-2006, 01:58 PM
hpdrifter, A couple of questions: Are you using the #4500 with the heater and if so, are you heating the lube? Second, how much pressure are you using with the the supplied ratchet[ing wrench]? The reason I ask is that too much heat + excessive pressure -> too much lube being applied to the CB's. Third, when you insert a [sizing] die, do you use the ram to push the retaining nut home (You'll hear a click when it snaps over the die's O ring.) and then tighten the nut fully? This insures the die is properly installed and should give you quite a bit of adjustment; i.e., unless Lyman has significantly altered the sizer body . It also prevents stripping the nut or worse, the threads on the sizer body, which are too fine IMHO. Lastly, have you tried plugging 50% of the size die holes with round shot or even a wrap of electricians'- or even duct tape? Just some food for thought....

hpdrifter
02-14-2006, 11:07 PM
Dale, might consider countersinking a set of holes if all else fails. Sounds good tho.


Maven, yep. Using heat and only enough pressure(I think to move lube into grooves). Had no problem first go round. Seemed real simple. Now, if I raise the ejector rod one full turn, I get a lubed base and if I lower it, I get a lubed nose. In between, after about 4 bullets I gotta clean the ejector rod off, it seems to seep in a little much. I'm gonna play with it a little more, now that I've got a few more idees.

Was thinking, if I could set it so the lower set of holes is under the base covered by plunger and just let the upper hole do the filling....; maybe that's what I did the first go round. I'll try it out.

Still, the rifle dies sure could use another set of holes, I have to double and triple dip them.

Thanks for all of your input.

carpetman
02-14-2006, 11:19 PM
hpdrifter----When you push the handle down,maintain firm pressure---not talking handle bending pressure---but firm. If you don't you'll get the lubed base. When you apply pressure to the ratchet---just bump it---it's a Brylcreem deal(for you older guys)"a little dab will do you". You may not have to use the ratchet on every bullet---might get 2 or 3 with one bump. RCBS sizers seem to hold pressure better and with them you seem to get more. You'll soon learn the quirks.

hpdrifter
02-14-2006, 11:35 PM
Ok thanx. I was holding it down kinda firm last time.

boogerred
02-15-2006, 12:38 AM
is the ejector plunger in the die right side up? flat side down,concave side up.the hollow in the concave side is supposed to fit the irregular bases of cast bullets better and seal better.

StarMetal
02-15-2006, 12:45 AM
There a modification for the plunger rod in NRA's Cast Bullet book and I've written it here so many times I'm getting tired of it. I've modified mine like it said many years ago and don't have much problems with my luber/sizer.

Joe

David R
02-15-2006, 07:24 AM
Carpetman, I know what you are talking about, does that make me old?

I remember the commericals, but was too young to use it.

David :hijack:

hpdrifter
02-15-2006, 05:08 PM
David, it don't make you old, it proves you're old.

Yep, concave side is up. I'm gonna try the lead shot in the hole idea. Had nuttin but fits last night. I adjusted every way possible and I got about a 1/2" sized ball of lube from the plunger over a 65-75 bullet adventure.

StarMetal
02-15-2006, 05:46 PM
hpdrifter,

Don't go modifying until you find out the problem. Here's a couple things that will make lube get between the plunger and the base of the bullet. One is an undersize bullet that is just a tad or more smaller then the die you are trying to size it with. Two is a defective base, if the base has an unfilled part say on the very edge it will let lube get by it. Three is too much lever pressure and not holding the sizer's lever firmly like Carpentmans said. Also when you've hit bottom, reverse your lever stroke back up fairly fast and most important don't be cranking the racket while you're on the upstroke to remove the bullet.

Like the other fellow says it doesn't make no damn difference how many holes are in the die. There are no such dies as rifle and pistol. Don't go be plugging holes. If the engineers that designed these things intended for holes to be plugged they would have sent along stuff to do it with and put it in the instructions. The the die works is the lube is under pressure and as the bullets grooves pass or are even with a hole in the die, lube flows into the groove. So you see if there is just one set of holes it don't matter because then you adjust the screw all the grooves that need to be lubed go past those holes. Another thing is your plunger may be a tad too small, BUT I doubt that. You can do a test by having the plunger all the ways up , that means there's no bullet in it and its in positions to be ready for a bullet, and crank the racket and see if any lube squeezes by the plunger. I'll bet it doesn't. Like Carpetman says you don't need alot of pressure on the racket and lube, you're not greasing a car here. Carpetman, my Lyman holds pressure along time. Example last night I found I could lube 4 or 5 9mm bullets with one pressure up. When I switch out dies I put the nut on the die head by hand because I don't want to booger up the 0-ring, but I do use the ram to push the die into positon and square up the nut. Those threads by the way are special NS thread and are 3/4x32. I don't know where Maven gets the nuts snaps and makes a sound seating on the die because, at least in my die, they are coated with lube . Maven must clean his dies off completely after use or something.

So that's it. Once you get this down and figure out what is the matter you'll look back at it as it was nothing.

Joe

hpdrifter
02-15-2006, 06:23 PM
hpdrifter,

Don't go modifying until you find out the problem. Here's a couple things that will make lube get between the plunger and the base of the bullet. One is an undersize bullet that is just a tad or more smaller then the die you are trying to size it with. Two is a defective base, if the base has an unfilled part say on the very edge it will let lube get by it. Three is too much lever pressure and not holding the sizer's lever firmly like Carpentmans said. Also when you've hit bottom, reverse your lever stroke back up fairly fast and most important don't be cranking the racket while you're on the upstroke to remove the bullet..

The bases of bullets look good. I held the lever firmly and upstroked real fast. The only time I cranked was at the bottom of the stroke while lever held firm


Like the other fellow says it doesn't make no damn difference how many holes are in the die. There are no such dies as rifle and pistol. Don't go be plugging holes. If the engineers that designed these things intended for holes to be plugged they would have sent along stuff to do it with and put it in the instructions. The the die works is the lube is under pressure and as the bullets grooves pass or are even with a hole in the die, lube flows into the groove. So you see if there is just one set of holes it don't matter because then you adjust the screw all the grooves that need to be lubed go past those holes.

Well. these holes cover a depth of .348 and my lube grooves are only .235 the lube ports cover `.113 more than the lube groves and there ain't no way to keep either the lower hole off of the base junction or the top hole off of the upper driving band. When I was getting the least amount of base lube, I had the upper hole hitting the lower lube groove and the lower hole below the base junction; but the upper lube groove would not get any lube as it slid by the lube port. That's how low I was keeping the pressure.


Another thing is your plunger may be a tad too small, BUT I doubt that. You can do a test by having the plunger all the ways up , that means there's no bullet in it and its in positions to be ready for a bullet, and crank the racket and see if any lube squeezes by the plunger. I'll bet it doesn't. Like Carpetman says you don't need alot of pressure on the racket and lube, you're not greasing a car here. Carpetman, my Lyman holds pressure along time. Example last night I found I could lube 4 or 5 9mm bullets with one pressure up. When I switch out dies I put the nut on the die head by hand because I don't want to booger up the 0-ring, but I do use the ram to push the die into positon and square up the nut. Those threads by the way are special NS thread and are 3/4x32. I don't know where Maven gets the nuts snaps and makes a sound seating on the die because, at least in my die, they are coated with lube . Maven must clean his dies off completely after use or something.

My nut slips over my die and o-ring with finger pressure also. Never saw any lube slipping past plunger.


So that's it. Once you get this down and figure out what is the matter you'll look back at it as it was nothing.

It's only $16 and right now I can lube me bullets with my fingers better than I can with the lubrisizer.

Thanks,

not trying to be argumentative or anything, this thing just don't fit me bullets and most of the other "pistol" bullets I've seen have ONE lube groove except this 454-275 group buy I got and it appears, just by comparing mold to die, that it might have same scenario.

StarMetal
02-15-2006, 07:07 PM
I have both brand of dies. So that means I have some with a few holes and some with alot of holes. I can lube a one groove pistol bullet in a die with alot of holes with no problems. I know for sure that some of the bullets I lube have the base/plunger junction dead centered and I don't have your problem. I wish I was there to try it out myself.

Short of packing the thing up and mailing it to me with some of your bullets and I'd figure it out for you for sure.

Joe

hpdrifter
02-15-2006, 07:10 PM
No need Joe. All of this talking got me into action. I just flattened 4 No. 4 lead shot and put into top holes. Works perfect now. Not but one little dribble onto the base and I know that was my fault; I experimented with a little more pressure.

Thanks tho.

Maven
02-15-2006, 08:08 PM
All, The new Lyman H & I dies have a different hole size and arrangement than the old ones (I checked Lyman's website prior to my post.), ergo Pb shot or a reasonable facsimile, may be necessary and will work.* As for the "snap fitting" of the die retaining nut, I've done it that way (so does Curmudgeon) for almost 20yrs. and have never worn out an O ring or been especially fastidious with my dies. However, I must confess that it hadn't occurred to me to put the die in the nut first on the Lyman machine: On the RCBS certainly, but not the #450.

*I've also read somewhere (Handloader? The Fouling Shot?) that the older Lyman H & I dies have too many holes/ports and should be plugged. The RCBS dies don't and work just as well.