38-55 Blackpowder Min Load

[HPT]

I loaded up some .377 dia Lyman 375248 bullets & some .380 dia LEE 375-250 with 42 gr Goex FFG and shot them in my Oliver Winchester that has .373 bore and 379 groove dia.

I was hoping that the fact I was shooting black would compensate for the slightly undersized Lyman bullets but the Lyman bullets keyholed. Also the cases were blackened and seemed like they didn't expand to seal. This was confirmed when I couldn't slip a bullet into a fired case. My thought is that I should use more powder.

How much would I need to ensure a sealed case & hopefully bump up the Lyman 375248? I want to stick with straight black & prefer 2 FG if possible. Any ideas of what velocities I'd get w 42 gr, 45 gr, 50 gr?

The LEE 375-250 shot pretty good. They have a bevel base & I was thinking that removing it may make it shoot even better. Should I try to remove the bevel?

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Howdy,

I use Big Lube bullets sized at .380" made from 20:1 But I use 2.8 cc of 3f goex with heavy compression and a .030" card. Seems to work well in my Legendary Frontiersman 94 with a .381" Bore and my Wesson and Herrington 71 38-55 with a .380" bore.

Sam :D

[montana_charlie]

I loaded up...with 42 gr Goex FFG...

Also the cases were blackened and seemed like they didn't expand to seal. My thought is that I should use more powder.

How much would I need to ensure a sealed case & hopefully bump up the Lyman 375248? I want to stick with straight black & prefer 2 FG if possible.
I have no experience with the 38-55, so I can't give you any specific advice.
But, there are some 'general knowledge' factors that you seem to be ignoring.

First, do you know what "38-55" means? It indicates a powder charge of 55 grains under a .38 caliber bullet. Your load was just a touch warmer than the 38-40 revolver load. I would guess you need at least 50 grains to get reasonable performance from a rifle-capacity cartridge.

Also (or secondly), 3F is a better choice for powder granulation in calibers below .45.

CM

ADDED:
Oh, yeah...
I hope you don't break your buttstock on that lead sled.
C.

[SharpsShooter]

3f will burn cleaner generally speaking. Don't be afraid to compress it to a solid mass. With thin brass like winchester, it is possible to get 55grains under a Lee or Lyman 250gr boolit. That may not be the load that shoots best for you though. I would start at 45-50gr and work up to what shoots best. Be sure to eliminate any airspace between powder and boolit if you are seating them out. The right lube too is important for BP. I have a couple friends that shoot both boolit types in accurate single shots and see no appreciable advantage, bevel or not.

SS

[coyotebait]

Hi HTP
I like your shooting bench top. bridge beam? are the legs set in concrete?
cb

[Nrut]

Hi HTP
I like your shooting bench top. bridge beam? are the legs set in concrete?
cb
Looks like HPT's butcher block to me coyotebait with those knives and sharpening steel...Might as well combine load testing with butchering, eh?
What do you think he is a'kill'n?...:)

[HPT]

Thanks for the replies!

Muddy Creek,
What is the weight of 2.8cc of 3FG? I don't have any dippers or 3FG handy. Any idea what velocity you are getting? What about accuracy? Is that Big Lube bullet the same as the LEE 375-250 with the bevel removed?

Montana Charlie,
I chose to try 2FG instead of 3FG as I had not had real good luck w/3FG in my 45-70 and even getting 42 grains took some compression. I also had read about this load somewhere. I agree with your Leadsled comments, I wasn't thinking - in a hurry to try it out

Sharpshooter,
Thanks for the bevel base comments, I will hold off modifying the mold for a bit. It's only about $30 but it's a 3 week wait if I order another. I'm using Starline Brass & agree that I should be able to squeeze more 3FG in compared to 2FG.

Coyotebait,
Yes that's a bridge beam but the legs aren't in cement. It's my friends range (and him shooting).

[Jon K]

HPT,

Ditto what SharpsShooter said. 3F is also for smaller cases like your 38-55 and smaller. 45-70 can shoot 3 F but is borderline.

You do need to chambercast your gun, because the Winchester is chambered for the shorter 2.080 production brass, that's why your fired case mouth diameter is small and won't accept a boolit.
If you want to use Starline 2.125 brass you need to open the chamber to depth. You're lucky you didn't shoot a high pressure smokeless load.

Jon

[Muddy Creek Sam]

HPT,

Never weighed it. it is 46.9 grains acording to the chart. Check out Big Lube (http://www,biglube.com) 255 grain LRFP Got them from Springfield. Don't own a Chronograph. Tight groups at 50 Yards. Just got the guns back from the Smith with the Marbles installed and getting them sighted in.

Sam :D

[NickSS]

I shoot a lot of black powder in 38-55 shells. After a number of tests I could not get any good accuracy with 3F powder so load FFG Goex in most of my ammo. I use Starline brass (the shorter stuff) and anneal the cases prior to loading. Starline tends to be a bit hard so I anneal it. My rifles vary in groove dimentions from .375 through .380. I size all my bullets with a .379 sizing die. Works in all of them. An undersized hard bullet with black powder may not bump up. I use 30-1 Alloy for match bullets and a 50-50 mix of WW and pure lead for practice bullets. Both shoot well. I use three different bullets. The lyman 248 gr (more like 256 gr with my alloy), and NEI 300 gr RN and an LBT 330 gr spitzer. The first and second bullets are loaded with 42 gr of FFG with an .030 wad and the LBT slug will only allow 38 gr of powder. If you use Swiss you can probably get more powder in the case because Swiss in denser than GOEX.

[August]

I would guess you're getting velocity in the low 12's. Did you use a card wad below the bullet? Did you try a 30/1 alloy?

I've had problems with extreme fouling when heavily compressing this round. Also, I've had fouling problems with 3F in this round. Somewhere between 42 and 45 grains with an overpowder wad ought to get good results with a 30/1 booolit.

It is assumed that the crown of rifle is O.K. and that you were wiping after every shot (wet patch, then dry patch).

[HPT]

Hi NickSS,

The mix that the Lyman 375248 bullets were made was 25/75 lead/WW. That plus the fact the bullets came out @ .377 probably caused the tumbling. I'm planning on switching to 30:1 for the next batch. These fell into fired brass.

The LEE 375-250 bullets were made from straight WW. These were .380/.381 dia and needed to be thumb pressed into the fired brass. If they were .379 I believe they would be a slip fit into the fired brass. I think the brass length is OK. I measured the chamber before ordering it. I'd rather try sizing the bullets to .379 than shorten it unnessesarily. BTW loaded rounds with big bullets fall all the way into the dirty chamber, so I don't know if that is a problem at all?

Have you ever tried the LEE 375-250 with or without the bevel?

I'm taking the gun back to my friends range today to shoot some more of the loaded LEE rounds. I may try to lap the Lyman mould as well as I don't really like the beagling idea, what do you think?

[HPT]

Hi August,

My friend has a cronograph so I will find out the velocity today. I'm using a milk carton over powder wad plus a newspaper wad against the bullet. The crown is perfect & I'm blowtubing between shots. In my previous note describes bullet mix & dia.

Which bullet do you recommend?

[ammohead]

I may try to lap the Lyman mould as well as I don't really like the beagling idea, what do you think?[/QUOTE]

I have a suggestion for you before you lap the lyman mould. I use a different type of beagling to gain a bit of diameter. If you have a center punch take one of the mould halves, put it on something stout and put a dimple in each corner of the face of the mould. Take care to use the same striking force on each dimple. Putting the dimple on the mould face will raise the metal around the punch just a bit. Not much striking force is required to raise the metal. When you close the mould a slight gap may/should be visible. This accomplishes the same result as tape does but stays in place and exactly the same for the next casting session. If you don't like the results, the raised metal can be removed with a fine file or emory cloth. Once you lap a mould the results are permanent and can't be undone!

ammohead

[HPT]

Just got back from shooting. All loads used the LEE bevel base bullet made from WW
The BP loads used a card wad plus a newspaper wad
The smokeless loads used a plastic powder filler w/out a wad

- Group #1 42 gr 2FG (blowtube) 2.275" @ 100 yds @ 1225 Fps (pictured)
- Group #2 42 gr 2FG (no cleaning) 3.750" @ 100 yds
- Group #3 17 gr 4198 3.280" @ 100 yds @ 1260 Fps
- Group #4 18 gr 4198 2.540" @ 100 yds @ 1345 Fps
- Group #5 42 gr 2FG (blowtube) 2.265" @ 100 yds

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_1627.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z41/VonN_photos/IMG_1634.jpg

[Springfield]

For HPT: Big Lube(tm) 38-55 bullet.

[HPT]

Hi Springfield,

What kind of results have you gotten with that bullet? Any BP loads? I'm interested in shooting dirty.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

+1 with comments by NickSS

I have a Legendary Frontiersman and have found similar results. My standard bullet is a locally produced 250gn x 0.380. 48gn Swiss No2 (3F) chronys 1168fps av in my rifle.

Other loads I tried are 10gn 4F and 39gn 3F which is good but not as consistant in the velocity dept as straight 3F

The new Starline long shells have only just become available 'down under' but upon examination the internal shape appears to be the old style balloon head style rather than the solid head of other makers.

I have a custom target S/S cut with the long chamber and can load 54gn of Swiss behind a 330gn semi-bore riding bullet. This bullet won't feed through the LF but new Starline long brass certainly lifts the performance of the good old 38/55

[Springfield]

So far I have only shot these bullets from my H&R Buffalo Classic. I can hit an 24" steel plate at 200 yards. I haven't tried them yet in my converted Winchester 30-30, still need to make a forearm. I'm not really much of a long range shooter, mostly SASS stuff. I do mostly BP in my guns.

[BPCR Bill]

I have an OLD Lyman 375248 that casts 20:1 at .379 and that fits my Uberti wall with a barrel on your dimensions (.379 groove). I'm still working on some loads, and have shot nothing but black in my rifle, and I have never had a keyhole problem with that boolit. What is the twist rate in that barrel? If it's too fast it'll tip that boolit sideways in a hurry. You may have to go to a 300 grain slug.

Regards,
Bill