Kitty litter

[Patrick L]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but I must have missed it.

What is the deal with using kitty litter to flux your pot? I have never had a cat, so I don't even know that much about the litter itself. I always thought it was a dry clay like substance, correct ? What do you do with it ? I've read you dump some into your melt and stir it up. Does it dissolve like Marvelux, or does it just float there ? Does it actually flux the metal, or does it just form a barrier to prevent oxidation? Are thee certain brands that are better than others ?

Anything you can tell me would be appreciated. I have been using Marvelux for years, but I hear that contributes to the pot rusting and crudding up between uses.

[Scrounger]

The kitty litter is CarpetMan's contribution to the casting world. You spread a thin layer over your melt and you are correct, it's main function is to prohibit oxidation. Needless to say, it works better with bottom pour pots than for those of us who use dippers. CarpetMan's original idea was to use the kitties themselves to flux the lead. (He's writing a new book, "A Thousand Things You Can Do with Your Cat") The neighbors complained about the noise, not to mention the medical bills from sewing up his hands and arms, so he tried the kitty litter, figuring it was the Essence of the Cat anyhow. Voila, it worked. Guys here being lesser men than Ray, changed the practice to using fresh litter only. I expect sometime soon Ray will unveil a new practice of using fresh lanolin for fluxing or bullet lubing. That's the kind of guy he is... :kidding:

[BrushBuster]

This kitty litter subject interests me too, and I had planned to use it to cover the melt after it's fluxed. My understanding is that I can leave this layer intact for for a number of bottom pours without further fluxing until half the pot is drawn down. Then I could skim off this layer, .....reflux,.......then replace the litter layer. I can also add ingots through this layer without problems to replenish the pot. Right?

What I don't see clearly is, should I be mixing flux into the melt when fluxing and refluxing, and does the kitty littler layer get mixed into the melt at any point? What does this accomplish by stirring in? After all, aren't we supposed to be keeping the melt almost virginal? Yeah I know, only a newbie can ask these kinda questions but thanks Partric L for initiating this.

Sundog got me considering one of his tips in using clean wood ash as a flux and cover. I really would like to know the facts on this, because wood ash I got lots of, but it's a long way to the Marvelux dealer!
:violin:

[grumble]

Let's not complicate this; it's very simple. Put clean ingots in your bottom pour pot, and add about 1/4 to 3/8 inches of the clay-type (read "cheapest") kitty litter on top of the melt. That's it. You can add more ingots right through the layer of litter. I like to stir the melt with the litter on top when adding lead, because the litter will attach itself to tiny pieces of dirt or crud, and keep it away from the pour valve. No need to do any more fluxing, assuming, of course, that you use clean ingots to begin with. Before you plug in the pot for the next casting session, pour off the old kitty litter and add another 1/4" or so of fresh litter. That's it, no more pots to clean!

Just to clarify Scrounger's tounge in cheek history, the first I heard of this was back on the old Shooters' forum. Came from a guy called "Mouse." The irony of that name, associated with Scrounger's history, is a bit humorous.

[Scrounger]

Grumble, please refresh my memory concerning my connection with "Mouse" and kitty litter. I remember Mouse, aka Blue Dot aka Aladin.

[grumble]

Scrounger, you're right that Mouse=Blue Dot. But not Aladin. Aladin was an ******* in his own right. Mouse was from one of the Carolinas, up in the hill country. And, he knew a lot about casting and shooting, while Aladin was more of a "two days a month at the range" kinda guy. Also, Mouse had a sense of humor and enjoyed tweeking noses. I liked him. When he came back as Blue Dot, he got serious and dropped the humor in his posts. Then he screwed up and signed one of his Blue Dot posts as "Mouse," and the world caved in on him. <G> Caught me and several others by surprise when that happened.

But Aladin is a separate person.

Is that the history you were looking for? The humor I alluded to was cats, kitties, and mouse.

[MN91311]

Does this kitty litter flux have any value in fluxing the rawmelt, the wheelweights or other rough lead source ?

I have been using candlewax for fluxing wheelweights on the first melt. Works very well, but smoky, fiery, and odiferous.

Looking for a cheap fluxing agent which is a little more user friendly.

[waksupi]

Does this kitty litter flux have any value in fluxing the rawmelt, the wheelweights or other rough lead source ?

I have been using candlewax for fluxing wheelweights on the first melt. Works very well, but smoky, fiery, and odiferous.

Looking for a cheap fluxing agent which is a little more user friendly.

If you are just rendering raw lead, any organic material will work. This can be old motor oil, leaves, sawdust, kitty litter, hair clippings, candlewax, pretty much anything that is a carbon base form. No need to get fancy with any of it. The kitty litter should work ok, and I will suggest getting a good dry stick, and stirring the mass, as it is melted. The stick puts carbon completely through the mix, much better than anything you can put on the surface.

[Duckiller]

How does fluxing work? I understand that I need to flux to have pretty shiney ingots and bullets.But how does it do what ever it does? Old motor oil,leaves,sawdust, kitty litter,hair clippings,candle wax, bees wax, rolled up news print are diverse items that I am told all work,but what are they doing. If the molten lead alloy just needs carbon to bring impurities to the surface then what about charcoal, coal or lampblack. Before I experiment too much with various fluxing agents I think I need to know how it is supposed to work.

[utk]

I've tried kitty-litter (clay type) in my LEE bottom pour but I'm not convinced that it prevents any oxidation of tin. Nor do I think it fluxes (is clay "carbon"?). When removing the kitty litter there was some lead/tin "buried" in the litter, and I don't think it was impurties or crud.
Methinks it was tin that should have been fluxed back into the melt.
I don't think a thin layer of 1/2" kitty litter will keep the oxygen out.
So, after two tries, the box of kitty litter went to a cat owner.

Duckiller: charcoal should make a fine fluxing agent, it has been suggested earlier on this forum, IIRC. The purpose of the carbon is to grab the oxygen atoms from the tin oxide, reducing it back to pure tin. Thats why any carbon source works.

Urban

[yodar]

I've tried kitty-litter (clay type) in my LEE bottom pour but I'm not convinced that it prevents any oxidation of tin. Nor do I think it fluxes (is clay "carbon"?). When removing the kitty litter there was some lead/tin "buried" in the litter, and I don't think it was impurties or crud.
Methinks it was tin that should have been fluxed back into the melt.
I don't think a thin layer of 1/2" kitty litter will keep the oxygen out.
So, after two tries, the box of kitty litter went to a cat owner.

Duckiller: charcoal should make a fine fluxing agent, it has been suggested earlier on this forum, IIRC. The purpose of the carbon is to grab the oxygen atoms from the tin oxide, reducing it back to pure tin. Thats why any carbon source works.

Urban

WAIT a minute ! unless you're working a VERY hot pot, (1000 d F) and NOT letting it stand , there will be no tin oxide. Tin remains IN SOLUTION as part of your alloy until equilibria are disrupted by massive temperature changes.

This whole business of FLUX being needed to return the OXIDE to elemental state is ridiculous. (Stannous Oxide to Tin)

I supplied analytrical intruments to the St. Joe Lead co. and learned a bit of metal refining, (and I am the son of a metallurgist and have a minor in chemistry ) Dad taught me that metallic oxides are very STABLE. They dont WANT to be changed. That is why CERAMICS are so bulletproof. They are oxides of silicon and aluminum. Oxides are VERY stable and VERY hard to reduce to the elemental form. It takes a LOT of energy and sometimes catalysts to produces elemental metal from an oxide. FLUX will not do it. Forget it! You are the victim of someone's dreams. It's physically impossible.


FLUX is designed to gather, aggregate, impurities from the surface of an alloy (a SOLUTION of metals) so they can be physically removed...which is where cat litter comes in...like activated charcoal, it ADSORBS ther impurities so they can be scooped off.

I prefer Boric acid or Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (20-mule-team-borax) because they both aggregate particulates on the surface of the alloy (dross) into a glassy crust which can be removed with a scoop.

Yodar

[Blacktail 8541]

Yoder; does the carbon from a stick used to stir and flux work as well as your borax? I've remelted ingots that I thought were clean because I keep getting a small amount of inclusions in some of my boolits.

[utk]

<Sigh> - sure wish there was some "known and recognized expert" that could clear this subject of oxides, crud and fluxing. Once and for all.
This reduction of tin oxides to tin "has been taught" on this forum (I think?) by some expert and now another expert comes bullying in, telling us that it's all wrong... It's been said that tin oxidizes easier and that's why most of the gray matter is tin oxide.
But what IS all that grey stuff that slowly accumulates on top of the melt? Simply crud slowly surfacing? Is it ok to skim it off? Without loosing tin?
I think that fluxing reduces the amount of grey matter (not all of it, though), and that would, in my mind, match the reduction theory...
Since I have a bottom pour I didn't worry too much about the top of the melt, only fluxing when adding new ingots.

Urban

[David R]

All I know is when the top of the melt gets a bunch of grey scum, I add a teaspoon or so of corncob (used tumbler media) and drop in some boolit lube. Let it sit a minute, stir and ignite. I stir while its flaming and when it is all over, I scoop off some LIGHT (as in weight) carbon colored stuff. The grey silver stuff is gone and the top of my melt is nice and shiny like a mirror for a short while till more grey stuff shows up.

Last time I poured some boolits, I used the kitty litter. (Napa floor dry, I am a mechanic) and it seemed the melt didn't get much if any grey stuff on it when I checked.

I have scraped off the grey stuff and put it in a pile. I put it back in when I flux again. There is no lead or grey stuff in the pile that accumulates next to my pot. Just a bunch of slag usually with gas checks mixed in. Instead of adding fresh boolit lube to flux, I just throw in some reject boolits with the corn cob.

David

[utk]

Here is a link to a fluxing discussion:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=22163&highlight=fluxing


And this is the link in the thread to a fluxing article by Glen Fryxsell:

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/simplefluxing.htm

This is probably where I read about reducing tin oxide back to (metallic) tin.

Urban

[nighthunter]

post removed.

Please .NH.....this forum is visited by many people and that comment was totally inappropriate. You can surely contribute better.

[nighthunter]

I am definately sorry for that post. I will try to hold it down in the future.
Nighthunter