vertical stringing. what to do?

[africa]

A .30.06, sporterized from a mexican Mauser action shoots groups at 100 yds that mesaures not more than one inch and a half spread laterally - usually less, but strings vertically a lot with some loads - about 4 to 5 inches. With another load, it groups 3 or 4 shots in a tight 1 - 1.5 inches cluster and one or a couple 2 to 3 inches high. I think accuracy IS there, prisioner of one of those goblins that inhabit rifles. Those lateral dispersions are not casual, I suppose.
The rifle has a piece of plastic card between the tip of the stock - a Ram-Line synthetic - and the barrel. Without it, groups spread in a large round shape.
My loads are Lyman #311334 cast from straight linotype, alox lubed, sized .310, plus 45 gr. of IMR 4350/ 40 gr. of IMR 3031/30 gr. or RX7
Any sugestions to correct the vertical stringing without opening the groups larterally?
Thanks.

[SharpsShooter]

A .30.06, sporterized from a mexican Mauser action shoots groups at 100 yds that mesaures not more than one inch and a half spread laterally - usually less, but strings vertically a lot with some loads - about 4 to 5 inches. With another load, it groups 3 or 4 shots in a tight 1 - 1.5 inches cluster and one or a couple 2 to 3 inches high. I think accuracy IS there, prisioner of one of those goblins that inhabit rifles. Those lateral dispersions are not casual, I suppose.
The rifle has a piece of plastic card between the tip of the stock - a Ram-Line synthetic - and the barrel. Without it, groups spread in a large round shape.
My loads are Lyman #311334 cast from straight linotype, alox lubed, sized .310, plus 45 gr. of IMR 4350/ 40 gr. of IMR 3031/30 gr. or RX7
Any sugestions to correct the vertical stringing without opening the groups larterally?
Thanks.


It sounds like you have the pressure point in the wrong location, if it's needed at all. You don't say how long you take between shots to produce these groups, so I'd consider barrel heating as another suspect in vertical dispersion. With the pressure point removed, how large are the round groups. I much prefer round groups as a starting point of accuracy developement. We need more information. How solid is the bedding of the stock? Are you sizing to the correct diameter for that particular rifle? Pass along a few additional details and someone in this bunch will figure it out.

:coffeecom

[NVcurmudgeon]

Africa, you didn't mention sights. Are they perhaps original? Mauser sights have always been very difficult for me to hold consistent elevation with.

[africa]

Without the plastic card, groups are round and about 6 to 8 inches. With a mild load of IMR 4198- 25 gr., same bullet, same sizing, At 1600 fps, (a recipe from the previous owner), it groups nicely, around 1.5 to 2 inches, but I would like higher velocities. I let a minute pass between shots, and 5 minutes between groups. Bedding SEEMS allright, but with a fiber stock, so many empty spaces, we never know...
I'm using a Tasco 4X scope, in a Redfield mount.

[SharpsShooter]

Without the plastic card, groups are round and about 6 to 8 inches. With a mild load of IMR 4198- 25 gr., same bullet, same sizing, At 1600 fps, (a recipe from the previous owner), it groups nicely, around 1.5 to 2 inches, but I would like higher velocities. I let a minute pass between shots, and 5 minutes between groups. Bedding SEEMS allright, but with a fiber stock, so many empty spaces, we never know...
I'm using a Tasco 4X scope, in a Redfield mount.


Ok...my old lyman cast boolit handbook has tons of data for the #311334

IMR-4198 25gr yeilds 1700fps...Not bad.

IMR-4350 starts at 35gr/1693fps...max at 50gr/2452fps.

RX-7 starts at 24gr/1687fps...max at 39gr/2329fps.

The 4198 load is no wimp for sure. The 30-06 can run certainly be run faster though. If you haven't tried increasing the charge in half grain increments until the group goes south or hopefully gets better...thats what I would do with each powder until I found the answer and I'd get rid of the card in the forend. Also, I would add IMR-4064 to my powder list to try. BTW is the twist rate on your barrel 10-1? That boolit should weigh around 187gr or so and your twist wil make a difference

[Bass Ackward]

Africa,

My guess would be lube. IF that is liquid Alox, then you are way over the top for most rifles. If that is 50/50 Alox, then you are borderline. Might get someone else to lube ya a few and see what happens.

[Larry Gibson]

africa

"Without the plastic card, groups are round and about 6 to 8 inches. With a mild load of IMR 4198- 25 gr., same bullet, same sizing, At 1600 fps, (a recipe from the previous owner), it groups nicely, around 1.5 to 2 inches, but I would like higher velocities."

Looks like the forend pressure with the plastic card is half the problem. The other half is "I would like higher velocities". Your loads as mentioned in the first post are probably pushing 2200+ fps. That is way to much rotational speed for a 311334 out of a 1-10" twist barrel which you probably have. I'm talking RPMs here. You are running them at 158,000+ to maybe 170,000 RPMs. Normal cast bullets will be most accurate under 130,000 RPMs regardless of Powder, lube or bullet hardness. The 1600 fps load above is cranking 115,200 RPMs. Sometimes you can sneak above that 130,000 RPM figure depending on the bullet and the use of a medium to slow burning powder. I use a 1.5 gr filler of dacron and a 311299 cast of WWs, lubed with Javalina over 28 gr 4895. Velocity runs about 1838 fps out of my 24" '03s. accuracy is always 1-2 MOA. RPMs of that load are 132,388. 1 gr more of 4895 and groups start to open. Slower burning powders can add another 50-100 fps before groups open but I'm then using a lot more powder than I care to.

So, if you want the best accuracy with that bullet back off to the 1600-1800 fps range. If you want more velocity (upwards of 2200 fps) and accuracy better than 4+ MOA you'll need a more specialized cast bullet design.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

To tell you the truth I think the 6.5 Swede is about the only affected caliber by fast twist. I shot just under one inch groups with my 7mm-08 at 2700 fps and the rifle has a 9.5 twist. I also have shot equally as smaller and sometimes smaller groups with my 30-06 shooting anywhere from 1600 to 2400 fps and it has a 10 twist. I don't think he's getting near rotational problems with a 30 caliber cast bullet. Now like I said, if he was shooting a 6.5 Swede I'd say he'd be having some problems.

Joe

[versifier]

Food for thought. You can easily test and adjust your barrel resonance. Assuming it's already floated, slide a 2" wide strip of rubber inner tube under it and move it back and forth to see if, in one position, the problem goes away. If it works, cut a small piece and fit it under there in the appropriate position.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I don't doubt that you have shot small groups with the 7-08 or your '06. I've shot some pretty decent groups at 2400-2500 fps with a 1-10" twist '06 also. I've much better accuracy results with 1-12" twists at 2400 fps with the same bullets. RPMs are 144,000 in the 1-12" twist vs 173,000 for the 1=10" twist. However, as I said earlier if he wants to shoot at those speeds accurately he will need "a more specialized cast bullet design". 311334 is not going to cut it at those speeds regardless of the alloy or lube.

As an example I get really excellent consistant accuracy out of my Ruger #3 .22 Hornet at 2600 fps because the RPMs are only 117,000 at that speed. Shooting cast out of .223s with 9, 12 and 14" twists is really where RPMs show their effect on accuracy. Lyman 225415 over 4895 will shoot MOA at 100 yards in all three of these rifles. MOA accuracy for each rifle comes at a different velocity; 1450 fps in the 9", 1940 fps in the 12" and 2260 fps in the 14" twist. RPMs are 116,000, 116,400 and 116,295 respectively. All three rifles are very accurate varmint/target rifles. If I push that bullet to any higher RPM, i.e.faster, then accuracy goes.

Another good example is the 6.5 Swede. I also have done quite a bit with cast bullets in the Swede. If you check the math all reported loads that are accurate by me, you and everyone else run at 125-135,000 RPMs. Above that and groups open up. However, I also have another 6.5 with a 1-10 twist. The same bullets that RPM out out at 1400-1500 fps (134,500 RPMs) in the Swede show the same accuracy at 1850 fps in the 1-10" 6.5. 1850 fps in a 10" twist just happens to be 133,253 RPMs. In .30 cals I also find that the normal cast bullet in that RPMs out at 1850 fps in a 10" '06 will also RPM out at the same 1850 fps in my 10" .308. The 12" twist 30-30 and .308 will push the same bullets faster with equal accuracy but accuracy will go at about the same RPMs as in the 10" barrels.

Now, with some normal cast bullets (Normal as being what one gets from regular factory moulds) you can push velocities to 2200-2400 fps in a 10" twist '06 and maintain 3-4 MOA. If that is acceptable as "good" accuracy then I've no problem with that. But if we're talking the best accuracy the rifle is capable of with those normal cast bullets then it isn't going to happen if the RPMs are above 130,000 give or take a couple thousand.

The RPM threshold for the best accuracy is applicable regardless of caliber. My M70 with 2.5X scope shoots the 377449 265 gr (cast hard) to the same accuracy as jacketed bullets at 2175 fps. The rifle has a 12" twist. Guess the RPMs? 130,500 RPMs. Go above that and groups (5 shot) open from 1.7 to 4+ MOA.

I'm tempted to get a 14" twist .30 cal barrel and chamber it initially in .308x1 1/2 and see what it will do at upwards of 2600-2700 fps (133,715 to 138,857 RPMs) with 120 to 150 gr cast bullets. When I find out what it does then I'll rechamber it in .308 and test again, then another rechamber to '06 and test the same bullets again. It should prove interesting.

Anyways any time someone reports accuracy of sub 2 MOA find out the velocity and the barrel twist. Then compute the RPMs and you will see what I mean. Normal cast bullets of normal alloys used will only take so much spinning before accuracy goes.

Larry Gibson

[David R]

Verry intereating. Do you have a down and dirty formula for figuring RPM?
My 22-250 has a one in 14" twist and shoots best at 2684 fps. My 308 has a 1 in 12" twist and a "speed limit" of 2000 fps. 1975fps they shoot well, 2025 all over the paper. Now I have to see what the twist in on my 1891 mauser.

I am getting 4 moa at 2200 from my 1917 enfield which I think has a 1-10" twist.

My pet peeve. Its Revolutions per minute. RPMs would be revolutions per minutes.

Thank you
David

[sundog]

RPM = (V * 720) / T

V = Velocity
T = Twist

[sundog]

Africa, is that rifle bedded? sundog

[45 2.1]

Anyways any time someone reports accuracy of sub 2 MOA find out the velocity and the barrel twist. Then compute the RPMs and you will see what I mean. Normal cast bullets of normal alloys used will only take so much spinning before accuracy goes.
Larry Gibson

Larry-
The Lyman manuals list the 143 gr or so bullet for the 6.5x55 Swede going 1800 fps. Useing Sundogs formula above, that gives 172,800 RPMs. That load does shoot under 2 MOA, considerably under even at long range. Please explain your reasoning from your above post to me why this works. BTW, there is more to the RPM theory than just RPMs, it has to do with boolit length also, something not mentioned to much.

[StarMetal]

I think bullet lenght is part of the hokus pokus too, that's why I tried shooting that long 70 gr 22 caliber bullet out of my 7 twist AR15. I'm still firm in that when you're in the very low 2000 fps bracket for the 30 caliber bullets it's nothing as compared to something with a much faster twist then 10.

Joe

[sundog]

"Any sugestions to correct the vertical stringing without opening the groups larterally?"

Bed the action and floor plate/trigger guard and float the bbl. That's not always the answer, but it's where I would look first. sundog

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

"The Lyman manuals list the 143 gr or so bullet for the 6.5x55 Swede going 1800 fps. Useing Sundogs formula above, that gives 172,800 RPMs. That load does shoot under 2 MOA, considerably under even at long range."

Not sure which Lyman manual you refer to; my old ones have the velocity of 266469 upwards of 1335 to 1525 fps as max with on listed at 1710 fps. The new Lyman lists the same loads plus some that max at 2000+ fps. There is no * indicating a potentially accurate load. What load are you refering to?

I have done considerable work with 266469 and 266455 along with another custom 160 gr bullet. I have used numerous original 6.5 Swedes. Alloys have ranged from WWs to Linotype with bullets sized to fit the long throats (.266 generally) . I never got consistant 2 MOA accuracy or under above 1500 fps. Best accuracy was always around 1400 fps, 134,400 fps with all bullets.

Sure would like the specifics on the load you are talking about as I've tried a lot of combinations. I would really like to test it.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

"I think bullet lenght is part of the hokus pokus too, that's why I tried shooting that long 70 gr 22 caliber bullet out of my 7 twist AR15."

I concur, I've gotten consistantly better accuracy with lighter weight bullets in the faster twists than with the heavier, longer ones. The Swede is a good example; the 125 gr 266455 would always shoot a little faster with equal accuracy than its longer, heavier breathren. Same in the faster twists of the .223. Come to think of it I allays got better accuracy at higher velocity with 311359 in 10" twist barrels than with the heavier bullets. It seems that bullets without long bore riding noses will give the best accuracy at higher velocity (RPMs).

However, RPMs still get to them. Can't remember if it was you or someone else here (maybe Carpetman) sent me some 154 gr .30 cal bullets that had a sharpe ogive and a .309 diameter the length of the bullet minus the nose. When seated in an '06 to the base of the case neck the ogive just kissed the lands. I was able to get 2-3 MOA consistantly with them at 2500 fps in the 10" twist which is 180,000+ RRPMs. I got MOA with them up to 1980 fps which is 142,617 RRPMs.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

David R

Verry intereating. Do you have a down and dirty formula for figuring RPM?

Sundogs formula is the standard one. I have divided the twist in inches for the various barrels by 12 (inches in "feet") which gives a "factor" for each twist (.833 for a 10" twist) . The velocity in fps is then divided by the factor which gives revs per second and multiplied by 60 to give RPMs.

FPS/factory x 60 = RPMs

Either way gets you there.

"My 22-250 has a one in 14" twist and shoots best at 2684 fps."

138,113 RPMs, What bullet? and what is "best" in MOA at 100 yards?

"My 308 has a 1 in 12" twist and a "speed limit" of 2000 fps. 1975fps they shoot well, 2025 all over the paper."

2000 fps = 120,000 RPMs. Again, what bullet? You might get up to 2200 fps (132,000 RPMs) with a more full diameter bullet.

"Now I have to see what the twist in on my 1891 mauser."

Should be a 9 1/2" twist. Best accuracy (1-1 1/2 MOA at 100 yards) comes in the 1700 fps range and over 1816 fps (137,924 RPMs) groups open rapidly. Bullet is the 314299 Lyman.

"I am getting 4 moa at 2200 from my 1917 enfield which I think has a 1-10" twist."

You're cranking 158,463+ RPMs! Drop back to 1800 fps (129,600 RPMs) and I'll bet accuracy will be much improved.

"My pet peeve. Its Revolutions per minute. RPMs would be revolutions per minutes."

Technically you are correct. However since I referred to the more than one ("s") revolution I used the plural. I hadn't really thought about it before...since you are correct I shall endeaver to correct my grammer. Thank you

Larry Gibson

[carpetman]

Africa---Maybe all Mexican Mausers have vertical stringing--I think it's the pinata(or however you spell it)effect.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

I was after trying to get that long 70 gr 22 cal cast bullet to go crazy after spinning high rpm. I was shooting it over 3000 fps out of my 7 twist AR15, which you have to admit is pretty close to the Swede twist and that my bullet was really spinning pretty fast. Now I'm not going to sit here and lie to you that I got one hole groups, but none of my bullets majically disappeared like some claim when pressing the 6.5 Swede fast. They all stayed on the target, which made a very large group, none keyholed, and let say I could hit a man at 100 yards easy with them. I just don't know how to explain what happens with the Swede. Waksupi claims the Swede cast bullet is bending from high rpm. He found some in a snow bank. Why didn't my AR15 bend those long 70 gr bullets which are very long for caliber?

Joe

[45 2.1]

Waksupi also said that the high speed boolit that bent was pure tin. Ric, correct me if that isn't what you said or meant.

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

I have my own ideas on how high RPM adversly effect accuracy. Mostly it centers around the higher G forces accentuate any defects or imbalances. The cause the bullets to sort of "cork screw" toward the target. The greater the defects the larger the "cork screw" thus the larger the group. I've not "lost" any bullets in my testing but have had a few go off paper onto the target backing. Have you backed those 70 grainers off to 1400 or 1500 fps? I can accept larger groups for some reasons but I still say that RPMs determine the threshold for the best accuracy. I've recovered some 6.5 cast bullets in snow but never figured one was bent by the RPM. Could be though.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Joe needs to get a Swede M38 and put a scope on it.

[StarMetal]

Larry,

No I haven't backed those 70 grainers off any. I got them from Bullshop so looks like I'll have to order somemore from him to further expriment. One thing, I sure didn't bend any of them (until they hit the dirt in the backstop) so like you none went off the target and none keyholed or any other strange thing.

Bob,

Yeah, I sure wish I did have a scoped Swede and should have bought that one Waksupin had for sale. Then I can get a better understanding on what's going on with the Swede. Be my damn luck I got it to shoot ragged holes at say 2700 fps at 100 yards and then I couldn't post it here because I'd be concidered a lier over the lier over the lier that I'm already thought, especially by my good buddy Carpentman, who you know calls me "one hole".

Joe

[45 2.1]

Yep Joe, those rifles with cast will shoot bug holes, IF you know how. Those that do know how ain't talking much about it either, due to those that don't believe or know how speaking without knowing whats what.

[africa]

I must say that I'm sort of amazed at the depth and amount of info on the matter! Thank ya. I'll try your sugestions, and let know the results. Fact is, I learned a lot, and will certainly produce a ballistic scientist attitude by spelling RPM/barrel twist formula next time I join the gang at the range...

[45 2.1]

"The Lyman manuals list the 143 gr or so bullet for the 6.5x55 Swede going 1800 fps. Useing Sundogs formula above, that gives 172,800 RPMs. That load does shoot under 2 MOA, considerably under even at long range."

Not sure which Lyman manual you refer to Lyman manual #45 ; my old ones have the velocity of 266469 upwards of 1335 to 1525 fps as max with on listed at 1710 fps. The new Lyman lists the same loads plus some that max at 2000+ fps. There is no * indicating a potentially accurate load. What load are you refering to? 143 gr. #266469 2400 powder starting 14.0 gr @ 1459 fps, max. 20.0 gr. @ 1872 fps. Somewhere between those you will find happiness. The accuracy load listed is IMR 4227, 23.0 gr. @1941 fps which I haven't tried and is the max. load for that powder.

I have done considerable work with 266469 and 266455 along with another custom 160 gr bullet. I have those and several others. I have used numerous original 6.5 Swedes. Yep, so have I, the 94, 96, 38 and the semi-auto. Multiples of each all along the way. Alloys have ranged from WWs to Linotype with bullets sized to fit the long throats (.266 generally) . Try WW first with a soft lube. Your boolit is rattleing in your throat. I never got consistant 2 MOA accuracy or under above 1500 fps. Boolit is too small, try 0.268". Best accuracy was always around 1400 fps, 134,400 fps with all bullets. This cartridge will shoot about anything if the conditions you are useing it in fit what your doing.

Sure would like the specifics on the load you are talking about as I've tried a lot of combinations. I would really like to test it. If you want to talk more, PM me.

[waksupi]

Waksupi also said that the high speed boolit that bent was pure tin. Ric, correct me if that isn't what you said or meant.

Yes, those bullets were pure tin. High speed application was the object of the test.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

"]If you want to talk more, PM me."

I don't think so, we started this thead, conversation, publicly let's finish it that way.

"143 gr. #266469 2400 powder starting 14.0 gr @ 1459 fps, max. 20.0 gr. @ 1872 fps. Somewhere between those you will find happiness. The accuracy load listed is IMR 4227, 23.0 gr. @1941 fps which I haven't tried and is the max. load for that powder."

I fail to find those loads or the use of 2400 or 4227 with the 143 gr 266469 cast bullet in any Lyman Manual. Please advise which manual you are referring to.

"Try WW first with a soft lube. Your boolit is rattleing in your throat. [/b]I never got consistant 2 MOA accuracy or under above 1500 fps. Boolit is too small, try 0.268". Best accuracy was always around 1400 fps,"

I stated I use Javalina Lube. If that is not a "soft" lube then what is? I also stated I did use WWs and they did not shoot accurately above 1500 fps either. Sorry but all the throats on my 6.5s are .266". Bullets at .267 and .268" are shoved down into the case on chambering and do not enter the throat. Are you telling me this is the "accurate" way to shoot these?

"Those that do know how ain't talking much about it either, due to those that don't believe or know how speaking without knowing whats what."

I'm calling BS on that one, are you sure you are not Aladin? It's really beginning to sound like him. If not I apologize. Though still you have not told us of your "happiness" load. I do not think the above is justification.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Since you can't read, you figure it out, and you can call BS all you want, you're the one who can't get the accuracy.

[sundog]

Africa, you said you are shooting an '06, bedding seems to be okay. The load is 30/3031 with a 190ish grain boolit of stright lino. That should run circa 2000 fps. What is the twist? It does make a difference. If it is a 10 twist, then you are running 144K RPM. At 1600 it's only 115K RPM. Big difference. In your case accuracy is proportional to speed. Faster you spin the boolit=higher velocity, bigger the group.

Options: harder lube, harder boolit, slower powder, bigger diameter boolit to match throat, weigh boolits for consistency. OR, you may be at the physical limit for your combination of variables in which case you'll need to live with what you got or rebarrel to a slower twist and start over. sundog

[Larry Gibson]

Since you can't read, you figure it out, and you can call BS all you want, you're the one who can't get the accuracy.

Sounds like Aladin is back. No further comment.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Sounds like Aladin is back. No further comment.

Larry Gibson

Like Waksupi said about another pleasant fellow, your must have the same problem. There are at least 20 people on this forum that know my name and address and know i'm not Jay Downs.

[Larry Gibson]

Like Waksupi said about another pleasant fellow, your must have the same problem. There are at least 20 people on this forum that know my name and address and know i'm not Jay Downs.

This my last post to you on this subject. You may not be Jay Downs but you certainly act like him. The last post of yours is a perfect example. Your last sentence "There are at least 20 people on this forum that know my name and address and know i'm not Jay Downs." was certainly an appropriate response. It would also have been appropriate to provide the requested load information from the other posts. Thus we could have continued on and perhaps learned something about cast bullets and shooting them. Your continued remarks such as the first sentence lead one to believe you could be Aladin as that is his style. Thank you for the conversation here but I will confine any further remarks to other members on this thread.

Larry Gibson

[stocker]

Africa here's some things to consider:

The fore end on the injection molded stocks are pretty springy and flexible.

You've shimmed the barrel which may have had the effect of creating stress on the action when the screws are drawn up tight. The shim is raising the front of the action off the bedding surface and when you tighten the screws instant stress.

The barrel is now springing off the fore end and as it warms and expands the pressure increases thus vertical spread.

None of this type of stock is truely a drop in AND a proper fit. It will benefit from a good glass bedding job . It is necessary to really chew up the inside of the stock to get a good mechanical lock of glass to stock as the glass does not stick well to a smooth injected stock surface.

Full length bed the action and about the first two inches of the barrel. This will tighten things so you don't have the pie plate groups you originally had prior to shimming. Get or make some headless guide screws and use those to locate the rifle correctly in the stock during the glass job rather than using the regular guard screws. If you want to create stress in an action then by all means use the guard screws instead of the headless screws. Press the rifle into the glass by hand to proper depth and secure with a few wraps of surgical tubing and leave until set up. Don't forget a release agent on all metal parts and fill any voids with modelling clay or putty to prevent lock in by the glass. The forward side, bottom and sides of the recoil lug may be covered with a layer of elctrical tape to provide clearance that aids dissembly and assembly at maintenance times. Not the rear face of the recoil lug. You want metal to glass contact there.

What you are trying to do is eliminate any possibility of action movement in the stock and create a stress free bedding platform.

If you want to have a damper )pressure point) at the end of the fore end for the barrel to rest on you must stiffen the fore end for it to be effective and remove the spring board influence.

Get some broken graphite fishing rods or golf club shafts and cut to lengths that will be a tight fit in the voids in the fore end.

Prepare the voids by roughing up the walls and bottoms . Put some bedding compound in and then press the graphite shaft section in the glass. Pour more bedding compound over the top and with release agent on your rifle seat the metal in place in the stock. If you want no barrel contact for most of the length of the fore end OTHER THAN THE TWO INCHES IN FRONT OF THE RECEIVER then cover that portion of the barrel with electricians tape and apply release agent ( PASTE WAX IS FINE) over the tape. I prefer to do forend bedding as a second stage after the action and barrel cylinder are bedded and set up.

This will add a great deal of rigidity to the fore end but it will also add a few ounces of weight.

When this is done if you want or need to use pressure points at the front start with a neutral pressure point. It will only dampen barrel vibration and not create any upwards pressure. You can also try thin shims and see what changes occur.

Good luck

[africa]

Thank you, Stocker ( a most adequate name, considering the matter...) A glass bedding job as your prescription (damaged graphite fishing rods - a labrador pup with chewing mania just found my rack unguarded weeks ago, so I have plenty of... are you a wizzard?) is on order, and will be done.