Lead Squabble

[Blammer]

Ok, there was a lady pushing the "no lead for your kids" and passing out pamphlets and stuff. Typical stuff like lead painted toys, lead paint, stained glass, etc and other stuff to look out for that had lead.

Basically I want to know.

What temperature does lead begin to vaporize at?

Does the smoke that comes from smelting lead "carry" lead particles with it in the air you could breath in? (I'm specifically thinking about WW's when you melt them and any trash or oil that is on them)

[Old Ironsights]

She's an idiot. Retalliate with DHMO pamphlets. Get her to pass them out too. DHMO is every bit as deadly as pb doncha know...

[MT Gianni]

What temperature does lead begin to vaporize at?

Does the smoke that comes from smelting lead "carry" lead particles with it in the air you could breath in? (I'm specifically thinking about WW's when you melt them and any trash or oil that is on them)

The generally accepted opinion about ww alloys and lead is vaporization can occur as early as 1175 F. If you get your lead that hot you will frost bigtime. You will also have to have a big gas burner with no t/stat and ignore it for too long.

[dominicfortune00]

She's an idiot. Retalliate with DHMO pamphlets. Get her to pass them out too. DHMO is every bit as deadly as pb doncha know...

By DHMO do you mean Di Hydro Mon Oxide?

Or water in other words?

[troy_mclure]

that dhmo is deadly!!

[leadman]

I was a certifed hazardous waste worker for awhile and was involved in safety with the City of Phoenix. It is my opinion that more harm would come to you from what is burning off the Wws than from the lead at a reasonable melting temp. Some of the weights I have been getting lately are coated with something more substantial than paint. Almost like a thin plastic coating. The smoke from burning off the oils and greases could carry many byproducts from the petroleum.
When I used to take air samples from different processes I made sure to take them from several points around the source. With a slight breeze the reading would be dramatically different. In other words, stay up wind!

[9.3X62AL]

NO DHMO!! Save the children!

I wish these same tree-hugging trendy leftist asshats that hawk this "Save The Children" nonsense were more consistent in their beliefs. Not one of those Birkenstock Bolsheviks would dare be caught picketing an abortion clinic. Yeah, right--save the children, indeed.

[Bret4207]

I was a certifed hazardous waste worker for awhile and was involved in safety with the City of Phoenix. It is my opinion that more harm would come to you from what is burning off the Wws than from the lead at a reasonable melting temp. Some of the weights I have been getting lately are coated with something more substantial than paint. Almost like a thin plastic coating. The smoke from burning off the oils and greases could carry many byproducts from the petroleum.
When I used to take air samples from different processes I made sure to take them from several points around the source. With a slight breeze the reading would be dramatically different. In other words, stay up wind!

My thoughts exactly.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

When you encounter that kind of idiot, be sympathetic, ask for a big bunch of brochures to pass out at the mall, then just chuck them later, They can't be convinced of anything as they don't work on reality. BvT

[Wayne Smith]

The shame of this style is that they start with truth. Lead paint and lead painted toys are, indeed, dangerous due to potential ingestion by children. Well established fact. On top of that they add other, safe uses of the same metal and condemn the whole by the part. A logical fallacy.

[opentop]

Save the Children? We were ALL children at one time, more than likely surrounded by products that contain lead. I bet 100% of anyone reading this board has drank water that was supplied through lead pipe at one point in time!

Hand her back a pamphlet that reads “Save us from idiots”

[LeadThrower]

She's definitely overreacting, and the comments of leadman are good. Physical chemistry addresses questions about phase change, vapor pressure, etc. Read on...

Water is a liquid. It's vapors escape the liquid at all temperatures, more so when it's hot. When a liquid boils, the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to atmospheric pressure. Lead and it's alloys will behave like water and other liquids, but only at high temps.

There's a good article in Physics Reviews:
URL: http://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/PhysRev.26.851
DOI: 10.1103/PhysRev.26.851

There are two great things about this article. First, It was written in 1925 before folks were paranoid about lead, so you know it won't be exaggerating for social or political reasons. Second, it was research done at the University of Illinois, one of the best physics and chemistry universities in the country, then and now.

To quote the abstract:
"Vapor pressure of lead, 1118° to 1235°C was found to vary from 5.70 mm to 19.70 mm in good agreement with the equation log10p(mm)=-10372 / T-log10T-11.35, which also fits the best results of Egerton at lower temperatures." (note: 1118°C is 2044°F; "log10" means base-10 log, or "log", as opposed to "loge", which is now referred to as the natural logarithm, "ln")

Atmospheric pressure is 760 millimeters of mercury (760 Torr) at sea level, so the lead vapor pressure is 0.75% of atmospheric at 1118°C. What that means is that 0.75% of every breath you take (assuming there's no breeze, and assuming the Ideal Gas Law, which fits well for "low" pressures like atmospheric pressure) is lead, just like every breath you take is 20% oxygen. The vapor pressure function is logarithmic, so the 0.75% will drop quickly at temperatures below 1118°C.

I haven't yet found any research-based data which defines the vapor pressure of lead at casting temperatures, but suffice it to say that at 850°F and below (450°C and below) the vapor pressure of lead will be very small, and the real hazard will be inhalation and potential ingestion of lead and lead oxide dusts which are part of the dross we skim.

If we approach casting with the same sense of safety we approach handling our firearms or reloading ammo, there shouldn't be any problem. We've all heard stories of fools who shoot holes in the walls of their homes ... don't let that bozo be your casting buddy. :razz:

opentop: I now have a piece of lead pipe, donated to me by my father. It's a section of pipe that ran from the water main to my childhood home. No lead in the home, but all of our water ran through 50' of lead pipe, and I lived in that house for 16 years. It caused so much brain damage that I went on to earn a Ph.D. in Chemistry from one of the best chemistry schools in the country (UW - Madison)!

[222]

If lead is so bad then I should have died as a kid. I shot a single shot 22 and carried 2-3 spare rounds in my lips for quick reload. I even fell one and swallowed a 22 short once. I am alive 35 years latter to tell ya. lol

[missionary5155]

Good morning 222 and WELCOME !
Just read your post and figured this is a good place to say Hello to you.
I wonder how many pellets I have swallowed over the years ? But then as we get older lead has less affect on brain developement. But we crushed lead crimp on split shot with our teeth. And if I am thinking right teeth fillings have lead in them also.
Mike in Peru

[Bob Krack]

The vapor pressure function is logarithmic, so the 0.75% will drop quickly at temperatures below 1118°C.

I haven't yet found any research-based data which defines the vapor pressure of lead at casting temperatures, but suffice it to say that at 850°F and below (450°C and below) the vapor pressure of lead will be very small, and the real hazard will be inhalation and potential ingestion of lead and lead oxide dusts which are part of the dross we skim.

If we approach casting with the same sense of safety we approach handling our firearms or reloading ammo, there shouldn't be any problem. We've all heard stories of fools who shoot holes in the walls of their homes ... don't let that bozo be your casting buddy. :razz:

Thank you for your very detailed information!

I have often mentioned the concern over inhalation and/or ingestion of lead particles or vapors.

I've never mentioned before, but the smallest amount of care in handling lead particles (intentionally or accidently) can be minimized - almost eliminated - by simply rinsing off your hands after contact with lead that contains small particles and/or dust.

Sweeping the floor in your casting shop is probably more dangerous to your health than most of our casting activities.

Bob

[1Shirt]

I go for the Barons suggestion!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[leadman]

I know the silver colored teeth fillings contain mercury among other things. this material corrodes over time (a long time) and causes the teeth to crack.
I'm in the process of getting all my old fillings replaced and some of the cracked teeth crowned. Think $$$$$$.

[Hurricane]

Don't drink DHMO, fish do unspeakable things in it!!!

[Blammer]

lol

Thanks guys! Just what I wanted to know and much more! :)

[Ancesthntr]

In other words, stay up wind!


I have often mentioned the concern over inhalation and/or ingestion of lead particles or vapors.

I've never mentioned before, but the smallest amount of care in handling lead particles (intentionally or accidently) can be minimized - almost eliminated - by simply rinsing off your hands after contact with lead that contains small particles and/or dust.

Sweeping the floor in your casting shop is probably more dangerous to your health than most of our casting activities.

As mentioned by several others here, simple and common sense precautions can virtually eliminate any problems resulting from handling, casting and otherwise being in close proximity to lead and lead alloys:

1) Wear gloves (nitrile or latex) when handling cold/cool lead;
2) Don't touch hot lead (and not because it is poisonous, either);
3) When casting ingots or bullets, wear shoes or boots that cover the entire foot, wear a simple filter mask over your nose & mouth, wear a hat, and wear long pants and a long-sleeved shirt (the latter 2 made of natural fibers that won't melt when exposed to heat);
4) Wear eye protection;
5) Don't eat, drink or smoke while casting, or before thoroughly washing your hands.

That's about it. Simple, common sense, same as you'd apply to reloading, but with an eye more toward avoiding absorbing the material than avoiding explosive mistakes with reloaded ammo (like double charging a case, seating a primer wrong, etc.). Of course, simple and common sense precautions are an utter mystery to the zealous protection-at-any-price crowd.

[Ancesthntr]

Hey, anyone concerned about the dangerous effects of DHMO should immediately visit the following site for accurate information about this insidious threat to our existence: http://www.dhmo.org/

[Blammer]

that's hilarious!

I'd love to have a t-shirt!

[Old Ironsights]

Aparantly there are no T shirts just yet on zazzle... http://www.zazzle.com/dhmo+gifts

But you can get them here: http://www.dhmo.org/store.html

http://www.dhmo.org/products/killsbig.gif

[Brick85]

One thing I keep wondering about is lead contamination in water that one uses to wash reclaimed shot, or bits of lead that might get "misplaced" during casting, if you drop them in the wrong place. Or stuff like lead pellets sitting in the yard from shooting as a kid. I know lead isn't as big a deal as some folks make it out to be, but isn't it something of a deal? I suppose if you have nice alkaline soil, lead won't break down, but what about things like acid rain, or animals peeing on the ground (and not just 4-legged animals either!)?

This is coming from a guy who wonders what happens to the lead when he washes his hands into a sink that drains into the municipal waste system.

[stubshaft]

If lead is so bad then I should have died as a kid. I shot a single shot 22 and carried 2-3 spare rounds in my lips for quick reload. I even fell one and swallowed a 22 short once. I am alive 35 years latter to tell ya. lol

I used to carry extra pellets for my Benjamin under my tongue.

[Lee]

It's all about people who buy bad science, have time on their hands, are control freaks, and are out to save the planet....................you know, poets!

[dakotashooter2]

We were ALL children at one time, more than likely surrounded by products that contain lead. I bet 100% of anyone reading this board has drank water that was supplied through lead pipe at one point in time!


Very valid point. As a matter of fact we, and our parents as kid were probably more likely to encounter lead than the current generation. Most paint was lead based when I was a kid. House, furniture, toys etc. were all painted with lead paint yet there is no strong evidence that it has had a significant impact on those generations.

Frankly there is as good or better chance of getting poisoned from the chemicals under your sink or the garage bench than from lead. I live in farm country and am more concerned aout all the chemicals and fertilizers that wash into our water supply than the amount of lead. Actually if recent studies are true the amount of prescription drug residue from being flushed might even do you more harm.

[jhrosier]

My Dad used to say that when people have stoopid kids, they would rather have folks think that it was environmental than genetic.

Jack

[3006guns]

One thing I keep wondering about is lead contamination in water that one uses to wash reclaimed shot, or bits of lead that might get "misplaced" during casting, if you drop them in the wrong place. Or stuff like lead pellets sitting in the yard from shooting as a kid. I know lead isn't as big a deal as some folks make it out to be, but isn't it something of a deal? I suppose if you have nice alkaline soil, lead won't break down, but what about things like acid rain, or animals peeing on the ground (and not just 4-legged animals either!)?

This is coming from a guy who wonders what happens to the lead when he washes his hands into a sink that drains into the municipal waste system.

From my brother in law, who has worked at a sewage treatment plant for over 30 years: All incoming flow is first treated for bacterial content, then for any other contaminants including metals. Several tests are required during the process before the resulting water is declared safe. It's expensive but thorough..one of those services you don't see but should appreciate. He also comes up with some of the greatest on the job jokes..............:mrgreen:

[John Guedry]

At one point I studied plumbing at the local votec and we were told the same thing folks on this site all say about eating smoking and hand washing. But we were also told milk will help flush lead from your system.

[waksupi]

At one point I studied plumbing at the local votec and we were told the same thing folks on this site all say about eating smoking and hand washing. But we were also told milk will help flush lead from your system.

Welcome John. The most important thing to remember about plumbing, is crap flows down hill, and pay day is on Friday~!

[leadeye]

The lead in paint is mostly lead chromate, it was used for years on farm equipment and is what gives them the bright reds, yellows, and oranges. You also find it in the yellow on most of the country's highways. You don't see it much any more but it was used for years as the color was inexpensive, lightfast, and had a high level of coverage compared to organic substitutes.:-)

[John Guedry]

Hot on the left cold on the right.

[cajun shooter]

Now John, not all plumbers took that class. When I built my house in Pride,La. I had hot water in my toilet. In fact his name was Guedry. Later David

[John Guedry]

Not guilty I figured it was too much work involved. Got into adifferent line of work altogether.

[tonyb]

How much lead ended up in the soil from the Civil War?:mrgreen: