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Marlin Junky
04-02-2009, 09:01 PM
docone31, pdawg, et al:

I was going to hold off shooting the Whelen until next week but I decided at the last minute to put together 10 rounds last night and fire them today.

It took three out of the 10 rounds to get the elevation adjustment dialed in, which is why there are only 7 rounds on the attached target (yup, all 7 rounds were shot with the same sight setting). I'm going to fire 25 rounds, a little faster this coming Monday.

Does anyone have a clue what could be causing the whacky flyers?

Here are the load spec's:

SAECO 352 cast of BHN 10 point something metal; first PT sized to .356" and patched with two wraps of .002" tracing paper up to .3625"-.3630"; then sized to .361" to fit the chamber snugly; loaded over 50 grains 2520 and run through the chronograph with the following results:

n=10;
high=2252;
low=2151;
mean=2174 if including 2252fps round; mean=2166 if not including 2252fps round;
range=101; (another grain of 2520 may lower this significantly)
std. dev.=28.8 if including 2252fps round; std. dev=13.4 if not including 2252fps round;

Thanks for any input,
MJ

docone31
04-02-2009, 09:09 PM
What is the yardage?
First off, NO KEYHOLES! I like it.
Second, it looks like those two are getting the lead out.
Those are your first few. If you were hunting, there be game on the table.
Your BHN is a little low. I run about 25. I can scrape off a wing with a fingernail, but I cannot scratch the casting.
I think you just need to run some more down the bore. Then they will smooth out.
Are you getting any carbon on the neck?
Have you recovered any down range castings?
Was there confetti?
How does it feel?
I would be proud of that first timer.

GabbyM
04-02-2009, 09:20 PM
if those fliers were the first two or the last two of that string. May be your cross hair had not settled in after your adjustment.

I try to adjust elevation by screwing it down then always coming up on the dial. You start to find out how good your scope is at some point.

If your rifle is a Ruger M77 it could be the middle action screw is to tight. Which will cause vertical stringing. I can't remember the procedure for tightening those screws. Which is bad since I still own one.

You may never know what caused the flyers. Could have self healed.

Marlin Junky
04-03-2009, 02:31 AM
What is the yardage? 100
First off, NO KEYHOLES! I like it.
Second, it looks like those two are getting the lead out.
Those are your first few. If you were hunting, there be game on the table.
Your BHN is a little low. I run about 25. I'm doing this so I can shoot expanding bullets. I can scrape off a wing with a fingernail, but I cannot scratch the casting.
I think you just need to run some more down the bore. Then they will smooth out.
Are you getting any carbon on the neck? A little.
Have you recovered any down range castings?
Was there confetti? Yes.
How does it feel? OK, but I need more consistent results.
I would be proud of that first timer.

Thanks,
MJ

Marlin Junky
04-03-2009, 02:42 AM
I keep this particular barrel pretty darn clean 'cause it doesn't shoot cast well when dirty (shallow grooves); and, these rounds (the flyers) were numbers 6 and 10 in the string (counting the first 3 that were intentionally shot at another target).

Hopefully I'll be able to post better results on Monday when I just might go with 52 grains of 2520.

MJ

P.S. BTW, I just ordered a ream of 9# onion skin from an outfit in WI. Cost was under 5 cents per 8.5x11" sheet plus shipping. I should get 24, .35 cal patches per sheet assuming the grain runs parallel to the long side.

pdawg_shooter
04-03-2009, 08:09 AM
At the velocity you are getting you could almost use pure lead. Straight WW will work fine. Atr you being real careful when rolling the patches on? No overlap on the second wrap. Straight on the bullet and to the same point on the nose on each one? You might try sizing the bullet to bore diameter +.001/.0015 and using 16# paper. The thin paper you are using might not be tough enough. Are you seating the bullet to where the paper engages the rifling? Lots of things to try yet!

montana_charlie
04-03-2009, 11:43 AM
pdawg shooter has given you your homework assignments.
Regardless of what you choose for sizing parameters and patching paper, each bullet needs to be an exact copy of every other bullet.
Even if your patching procedure results in inaccurate loads, they should be uniform enough to give you consistent velocity.
Since you have a chronograph and know how to use it, let it guide you toward that initial goal...then fine tune your patching to get the accuracy you need.

As long as you are getting an ES (extreme spread) of 100 over ten rounds fired, you don't have the consistency needed to fine tune anything.

CM

pdawg_shooter
04-03-2009, 12:52 PM
One other thing to try, pick a powder that will give 95% to 105% load density. Seems to help with uniformity.

Marlin Junky
04-03-2009, 04:30 PM
pdawg & MC,

Thanks for the replies. I've still got 25 bullets that are patched with the 0% cotton tracing paper that I will shoot Monday with heavier loads but afterwards, I'll wait until I get my onion skin or perhaps try my 16#/100% cotton. The only problem with the 16# is that I'll need to special order a PT die from Lee. Because of the 16#'s thickness, I'll need to patch a bullet that measures between .351" and .35whatever" (I haven't decided yet). I may go with a .351" die because my .350RM has a bit tighter chamber and a bore diameter that's right around .350" (IIRC - I've got to measure it again but I think that's pretty close). Right now the only PT die I have is a pretty rough (these PT die need polishing!) .356" die that requires a little too much force (IMH) to reduce an as-cast SAECO 352 (BHN 10) down to .356". I know I'll eventually end up with a whole assortment of .35x" dies but, I'd like to start wrapping with the onion skin before getting serious about ordering 100 bucks worth of dies from Lee.

Thanks again for the adivce, which sounds perfectly logical to me. I'm a little apprehensive about the 100% density load though. With the COL out there to 3.27" and a seating depth of only 1/4", that would amount to over 60 grains of powder. Maybe I'll dump that much DP-85 in the case and try 5 rounds... that'll definitely get everyone's attention, but I'll probably have to swab the barrel after each shot. I'll probably load the bulk of the 25 rounds with 54 grains of H-380 to see if my stats improve... that'll be near a 90% load and H-380 has always perform well for me in the 30-30 with heavy boolits.

MJ

Digital Dan
04-03-2009, 05:29 PM
I would not be dissatisfied with that for a first time out either.

Your ES is large and "mean" means little. You fired 7 for record and got what you got....5 in a nice group and the other two looking a bit liberal. Load is telling you something and you'll need to dope out the cause. Not familiar with that powder at all but am of the opinion that ball powders will cause large ES numbers in loads that are of low pressure. Your numbers LOOK like a ball powder to me....so, what is 2520? In any case, an ES spread like that can be improved.

Marlin Junky
04-03-2009, 05:54 PM
I would not be dissatisfied with that for a first time out either.

Your ES is large and "mean" means little. In conjunction with the std. dev. is is a good stat if you're into consistency. You fired 7 for record and got what you got....5 in a nice group and the other two looking a bit liberal. Load is telling you something. That's pretty obvious. and you'll need to dope out the cause. Yep, that's the process. Not familiar with that powder at all but am of the opinion that ball powders will cause large ES numbers in loads that are of low pressure. Depends on your definition of low pressure. H-380 works very well at slightly less than 100% load density and < 40K PSI in my 30-30's. WC-820 and AA#9 work very well in the 30-30 with reduced loads, also at approx. 35K PSI. Your numbers LOOK like a ball powder to me....so, what is 2520? Yes, it is a spherical powder, but all spherical powders aren't created equal. In any case, an ES spread like that can be improved. Most definitely; however, one needs to determine if the bullet diameter is effecting the large ES by producing wild pressures.

Thanks,
MJ

docone31
04-03-2009, 06:01 PM
Marlin, it looks to me like you are off to a great start with your loads.
My first ones were 6' of berm, or maybe 20' of berm.
You done good.

Marlin Junky
04-03-2009, 08:28 PM
docone31,

Thanks... more targets on Monday. I shouldn't have to waste any rounds trying to find the targets next week and I will stoke 'em up bit more. :-D

MJ

Marlin Junky
04-06-2009, 03:12 PM
Attached is the best 5-shot group of the day.

Load spec's:
SAECO 352 at BHN 10.5 and 247-248 grains unpatched.

PT sized to .356" and wrapped twice with Strathmore tracing paper (no cotton content) which 'mikes' .0019-.0020".

Bullets were allowed to dry over night, lubed with JPW and sized in a Lyman 450 die that measures about .3605". The die was pumped up with LBT Soft Blue so the holes wouldn't snag the patches; therefore, the patched bullets had "blue stains" on them.

Bullets were loaded on top of 61 grains of DP-85 and seated to 3.276".

The loads were fired from a 22" Handi-Rifle and went over the chronograph at 2357 fps. Recoil was stout. There is room in the case for at least another grain of powder... maybe two. The pressure seemed mild and there was more unburned powder in the barrel than I normally like to deal with; however, this load shot better than those fueled by SplBall (H-380); so, I guess I finallly found a home for my DP-85. Too bad the rifle doesn't have a few more inches of barrel! I will shoot 61 and 62 grains of DP-85 next time (hopefully before my short trip out of state near the end of the month). 62 grains ought to break 2400 fps especially if I can scrape up some Fed 215's (I think I may have a couple boxes).

MJ

P.S. I'm always forgetting something! The range was 100 yards and the group measures just under 1.875". The aiming spot is 7/8", not my usual 3/4" because of the lower scope magnification. My '06, .358 and .350 all wear 2x7 scopes and the Whelen wears a 1x4.

Other powders on my to try list: H414, W760 and the 4350's

docone31
04-06-2009, 04:09 PM
Now we are talking!
I told ya.
Now to find the sweet spot with the powder.

RBak
11-05-2009, 01:49 PM
I've been searching through a bunch of old posts for the past couple of weeks...reading some of them two and three times, trying to find the answer to what may be a foolish question to some of you more experienced, and so far it seems I am going to have to ask what may be the obvious to many of you....

My question is; Is it absolutely necessary to size down and patch back up, if your current sizing die seems to work just great on regular cast boolits??

Here's the deal...I do a lot of Paper Patching for my 45-70 and I feel I do quite well as far as this caliber goes, However, I size down to .452 from .458 in three steps / stages, and I patch back up to .459..... I am very pleased with the results.

Now, here's the deal.......I also have a .35 Whelen and a DC 358009 that I have been shooting for several years with just a GC and lube, and I am quite happy with its performance, but after reading a lot of your posts I have decided I want to "Patch" this thing too....just for grins & giggles.

I have read elsewhere that sometimes it's possible to just wrap the as cast boolit and run it through the sizer...assuming your alloy is soft enough, and in my case it would be pure lead.

What's your collective thoughts on this? Can it be done without sizing down?

Russ...

clodhopper
11-08-2009, 04:55 PM
Russ,
I have read the wrapping and sizeing down works. But in my small amount of experimenting have no results tighter than 7-8 minutes@25 yards.
I have a . 354 push through sizing die. Buckshot made it for me at a pretty resonable price and about three weeks delevery time.
I you want to send me some bullets and return postage, I will run them through the .354 die either with JPW, LLA. If you want any other lube, then apply it before shipping.
I also am very happy with the 358009 bullets just running gas checks.
But RCBS 200 FP is what I take hunting.
I have not tried PP in 35 whelen yet, but have with M-1 garand and 260 Remington.

yondering
11-08-2009, 05:31 PM
My question is; Is it absolutely necessary to size down and patch back up, if your current sizing die seems to work just great on regular cast boolits??


No, it's not necessary at all. Just patch the boolit as cast, and size down as needed. You will need a polished Lee push through die; they are too rough for this as received from Lee. The polishing is easy to do with a split dowel wrapped with emery cloth in a cordless drill. I'm sure you could probably do this in a luber sizer as well, but the push through dies are so much easier to use for this application.

Pure lead is probably too soft, unless you are going for low velocity.

About your 45/70 boolits, you shouldn't need to use 3 steps to size down from .458 to .452. I do this on a regular basis in my Lyman 45 lubersizer, in one step, to use 45/70 boolits in my 45 Colt.

RBak
11-09-2009, 01:11 PM
I you want to send me some bullets and return postage, I will run them through the .354 die either with JPW, LLA.

Thank you, Sir! That is a very nice gesture IMO.

And thanks for other reply too. Don't ya just hate it when you feel you've just asked a really dumb question?

The reason, actually the only reason, I use 3 stages for sizing down my 45-70 is because I get much better results with a very hard cast boolit and my sizer is a old 45...also, it seems that if I try to skip a stage I get galling with the push tru's.
But, if you say you do it in an mdl 45 I just might give it a try too. I have always been afraid I would break the handle or the linkage, or something, on my old 45, so I have never really pushed the issue.

However, as mentioned, I have also never polished the inside of the push-thru dies either.

I think I will try polishing the inside of a .358 push through before I get to carried away with sizing down.

Russ...