Primer shortage solution

[anachronism]

From the army field manual.... reusable primers.

Mods- feel free to delete this.

[archmaker]

interesting if i get where i have NO primers and no loaded ammo i could see doing a few.

But until then . . . I will keep scraping together as many primers as I can.

[shooterg]

Had a friend do that with small pistol primers just to prove it worked - seemed like he used some liquid and made a paste of the tips that had to dry after the anvil was inserted. They all went bang ! And I believe you can use the rest of the matchhead as a propellant. Actually, it may be as hard to find those self striking matches as it is to find primers.

[Old Ironsights]

...Actually, it may be as hard to find those self striking matches as it is to find primers.

Point. Fortunately, it's not that hard to make Fulminates...

[oldhickory]

I'm not sure my memory is all that good, but I think the OLD Dixie Gun Works catalogs from the 60s-early 70s had a lot of this same useful information in it.

[StarMetal]

Only thing I didn't like was how they seated the primer. Both ends of the case were sealed off....now good if the primer decided to let go. Would be better to seat them as you do the current primers we have now.

We use to make rockets out those matches when I was a kid and I'm sure a lot of you used the tips of those matches to use in "spoke guns".

Joe

[waksupi]

Mods- feel free to delete this.

Heck, no! :Fire:

[jdowney]

Make yer own berdan anyone?

[anachronism]

The honest truth is, I've done this. It was several years ago, I was unemployed, broke & bored. It did work for 38 Spl & .357, but was seriously labor intensive. I always meant to try it in rifle loads, over the chronograph, comparing them to factory primers, but never got around to it. This would probably be a good project to try out so you have some experience in the matter, if there's ever an extreme need for primers.

[Old Ironsights]

"Extreme" being the key...

I've had the 31-210 almost from the time it was released to the genera public.

None of what is in there is in any way "safe"... but it ALL works.

It's a much better and more practical SHTF reference than any "cookbook" you can buy at your local NinjaMart.

[OeldeWolf]

Is that publication available without ending up on lists somewhere in DC?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

AH Yes, Starmetal, some of do remember the old "spoke gun " , my first reloading adventure way back in about 1951 if I remember .... All of this information can be usful in a survival situation if our normal sourses are gone... and they could be..the way we are going.

[klcarroll]

Hmmmm........

Home made primers! .............Interesting from the standpoint of "Odd Trivia"; .....But try as I might, ...I can't imagine myself in a stituation where I would actually consider doing this! (.....Or for that matter, I can't imagine trusting my life to a home made primer in a combat situation!)

Kent

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

neat, I might have to try that sometime

[legend]

I think in a "combat situation" i would love to have this option...

[DonH]

Hmmmm........

Home made primers! .............Interesting from the standpoint of "Odd Trivia"; .....But try as I might, ...I can't imagine myself in a stituation where I would actually consider doing this!
Kent

Maybe life is a little too good yet? That could change in a hurry!

[delmar]

Hmmmm........

Home made primers! .............Interesting from the standpoint of "Odd Trivia"; .....But try as I might, ...I can't imagine myself in a stituation where I would actually consider doing this! (.....Or for that matter, I can't imagine trusting my life to a home made primer in a combat situation!)

Kent

not without testing a bunch of them! But why not try it and test a bunch of them? I think I might, at some point.

[hoosierlogger]

Hmmmm........

Home made primers! .............Interesting from the standpoint of "Odd Trivia"; .....But try as I might, ...I can't imagine myself in a stituation where I would actually consider doing this! (.....Or for that matter, I can't imagine trusting my life to a home made primer in a combat situation!)

Kent

If you found yourself in a situation where your life depended on it, believe me you would try it.

[mr mom]

ok guys !!!! how many need primers ??? i have about 1/2 a 5 gal. bucket of used primers sitting in my reloading room... let me know what they are worth ....

[Old Ironsights]

Is that publication available without ending up on lists somewhere in DC?

Most Army/Navy Surplus stores try to keep that one and a few other interesting ones in stock...

FWIW, the purpose, by TRADOC, for any of the improvised munitions in that TM is to be used as little as possible for the primary goal of aquiring commercial munitions from the enemy.

Just like the old "Liberator" pistol dropped all over France. It works, but it's not really for "combat". It is for helping you aquire real equipment in a pinch.

[eka]

Would the Tap-A-Cap design of punching out the charge of paper roll caps work? Seems like the same basic premise. I know we all pretty much surmised in a recent thread that the Tap-A-Cap is a less than desirable option to percussion caps, but seems like it might work in a pinch. You may have to stack a couple of them.

Keith

[Dennis Eugene]

Home made primers! .............Interesting from the standpoint of "Odd Trivia"; .....But try as I might, ...I can't imagine myself in a stituation where I would actually consider doing this! (.....Or for that matter, I can't imagine trusting my life to a home made primer in a combat situation!)
Hmmmm, never been very hungry huh? Dennis

[klcarroll]

Hmmmm, never been very hungry huh? Dennis


Dennis;

Not everyone lives in Alaska.

I live in the suburbs of Chicago: .....Hunting for my family's meals has never been real high on my list of survival options.

Even an experienced hunter like yourself would starve pretty fast here in Northern Illinois: ....Particularly competing against about a million like-minded people! (....Unless, of course, you like the taste of man-steaks!)[smilie=1:


My comments were made based on practical reality:

First of all, I have always made sure that I stock enough primers for the powder I have in inventory: ….If I’m out of primers, then that means that I am also out of powder.

Secondly, I have a MINIMUM of 500 rounds on hand for each caliber I shoot, …..And components for about twice that number. If the day comes when primers, powder and ammunition are no longer available, …the only thing that will stop are my weekly trips to the target range; ….as I will then (obviously) be saving my ammunition for “more important matters”.

Finally, ….I am a realist: If the day comes when I actually NEED all that ammo, ……I know that my chances of needing more later are “Slim and None”!



Kent

[Bert2368]

For those who are not aware: The tip of a strike anywhere match is composed of Potassium chlorate which functions as the oxidizer, a fuel such as Phosphorous sesquisulfide, Antimony sulfide or Sulfur and ground glass as a sensitizer. Minor ingredients would be hide glue, starches, dies, an acid neutralizer such as Calcium carbonate and possibly a sensitizers/catalyst such as manganese dioxide.

Main point of interest would be the chlorate. That's the primary reason corrosive primers are corrosive- It turns into Potassium chloride (salt) upon firing. So be aware that you'll have to clean your guns same as for any other corrosive ammunition.

People have been re-priming shells with friction match tips ever since both have been available. If you look at the rimfire cartidges recovered from old indian war battle fields, many of them will show two or three sets of firing pin imprints- And the US army put out orders to police up all fired shell cases very soon after they made the switch to metalic ammunition for the same reason.

If you want to learn about priming mixtures, an excellent start would be Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives http://www.fireworksnews.com/product/47/2

You can make Potassium chlorate from household bleach and the non Sodium water softener salt. All you need is a stove, a couple of pans and a refrigerator...
http://www.wfvisser.dds.nl/EN/chlorate_EN.html#thermal

The technology for preparing modern non corrosive priming coumpounds is not a great deal more equipment intensive, but the knowledge of chemistry needed is greater.

[acemedic13]

I have this fm, got it at work and It's a geat read. As mentioned before, the improvised munitions were intended for use as a secondary means and as a resource to obtain adequate munitions. That is not to say that you could not use it in a real time effort to shore up needed materials.


Today I found a small "gold mine" of primers at a backwoods boat shop. This old timer had a ton of them. He never advertised reloading stuff and I never thought to look in his store. I went in to look at some outboards,( It is not a gun store per say) and Lo and Behold I hit the motherload. Most of these old boys buy a few boxes of ammo and thats it. they shoot a few rounds a year while hunting, and might have some small scale reloading venture in a shead somewhere.

This guy had this stuff on hand, and had for some time. He looked at me like I was stupid when I bought all of them. He was pretty glad to move them and the price was about a " two years ago" price. Even though the primers were not that old. He asked me if I wanted anymore in different sizes, I said I would be happy to have them. He then took me to the "pallet"....... I am now set for quite sometime.

Moral.......Look everywhere, even outside the norm. Then, dont concede, make your own........

[jonk]

Bert-

Brilliant! So with some bleach and water softener and a coleman stove I can make potassium chlorate crystals.... gonna have to be very careful grinding them down to turn into a paste to make priming compound..... :D

Now the question is, what do you have to mix that with?

[Bert2368]

Bert-

Brilliant! So with some bleach and water softener and a coleman stove I can make potassium chlorate crystals.... gonna have to be very careful grinding them down to turn into a paste to make priming compound..... :D

Now the question is, what do you have to mix that with?

You might want to check out the Tenney Davis book. There is no quick and easy answer to your mixture question, there are a lot of choices and yours would be dictated by material availability and your specific needs.

Chlorate by itself isn't sensitive, it can be ground safely. You had best be careful when it is mixed with a fuel and sensitizers though. Plenty of people have been killed working with priming mixtures. Such things obviously must be sensitive to shock and friction to function- Wet mixing techniques are a possibility to increase safety, and depositing the primeing mixture as a drop of slurry is a common technique in industry.

Antimony sulfide with chlorate is more sensitive to friction, Sulfur and chlorate more sensitive to shock. Sulfur has the drawback of slowly generating sulfurous acids in contact with air and moisture, which will destroy chlorate priming mixes over time.

If I had to source some Sulfur in a hurry, I'd go to a garden center and get a can of "dusting Sulfur". It might be 10% diatomaceous earth- Sulfur dissolves in warm toluene and diatomaceous earth doesn't. A coffee filter and some time are all you would require to separate the mixture. http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/exps/S+toluene/index.html

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I have a recall that one of the gun digests from the early 60s had an article on reusing primers . Sorry I can't get closer in time but I don't have those books anymore. Perhaps our gun librarian might? BvT

[oldoak2000]

Guess I better stock-pile some matches, now before they get all bought-up . . . now that the word is out . . . . .:roll:

:mrgreen:

[anachronism]

Laugh if you want to, but I keep a bucket that I throw scrap brass cases & used primers. I used to have the luxury of tossing ugly brass, like military 30-06 cases. This weekend I'm goint to clean it out & salvage my military brass & save my spent primers. I already have a lot of primers set aside but it won't cost me anything to not throw my old ones out.

[StarMetal]

Guess I better stock-pile some matches, now before they get all bought-up . . . now that the word is out . . . . .:roll:

:mrgreen:

Those strike anywhere matches are already hard to get way before this post came out.

Joe

[jonk]

Thanks. I'm not planning on actually DOING this mind you but would be nice to know how if truly need be.

[anachronism]

Thanks. I'm not planning on actually DOING this mind you but would be nice to know how if truly need be.

It does require strike anywhere matches, so you should set a couple of hundred thousand aside for future needs.

[imashooter2]

I would think those would be remarkably corrosive...

[delmar]

ok guys !!!! how many need primers ??? i have about 1/2 a 5 gal. bucket of used primers sitting in my reloading room... let me know what they are worth ....

I could be wrong, but I doubt if resale demand for spent primers is going to rise above the scrap metal price any time soon.

[Bert2368]

My dad was a young teenaged shooter at the start of WWII. I heard stories from him and my uncle of reloading .22 rimfire shells by "spinning" match tip slurry into the rims and then taking a paper punch to scavenged nitrocellulose movie film. Punch out a bunch of discs, stack them into the re-primed shell, swage a piece of #4 buckshot to fit, load it into your .22 in a position where the old firing pin strike doesn't line up with the firing pin. Kids will go a LONG way to get something to go "bang". I can't imagine this did any good to their guns, or was very accurate-

[delmar]

Would the Tap-A-Cap design of punching out the charge of paper roll caps work? Seems like the same basic premise. I know we all pretty much surmised in a recent thread that the Tap-A-Cap is a less than desirable option to percussion caps, but seems like it might work in a pinch. You may have to stack a couple of them.

KeithDo they sell roll caps at WalMart, or do I need to go to a toy store to find them?

I was messing with impact-ignited "pop snappers" today. I opened up the paper and they contain eight or ten explosive rocks in each. I tried to crush them into a powder but after I crushed them they didn't seem to have any "pop" left in them. When I get some white tip matches I am going to try putting a couple of the little rocks from these in with the powder from the matches. I'm hoping this will make it so I don't need to scrape the tip off of so many matches.

[rhead]

Yes Wal Mart sells roll caps. They also sell strip caps . The ones I have are Legends of the West brand. Same size as a #11 percussion cap and just a little weaker. 208 rounds for $1.14 plus tax.

[Linstrum]

The corrosive Frankford Arsenal chlorate primer recipe used in U.S. military .30-06 ammo in WW1 and WW2 is given in Hatcher's Notebook. It contains the requisite potassium chlorate, sulfur, antimony trisulfide, ground glass, and glue binder. The antimony trisulfide can be obtained from pottery glaze supply places as it is used for metalic glazes on pottery. Pure sulfur at fertilizer stores was outlawed about five years ago, so good luck finding it easily.

Potassium chlorate can also be made by running a minimum of 3-volts DC current through a concentrated brine of potassium chloride (from the aforementioned potassium water softener salt or salt substitute from the grocery store - water softener salt cheaper by a factor of 1000). A real big 6-volt @ 50-amps battery charger with a 100% duty cycle at full 50-amp output works great, connected to large dinner plate size graphite electrodes separated about two inches apart. Any voltage over about 6-volts does not increase the output of chlorate and just runs up your electric bill, so if you try it don't use a DC arc welder unless you can turn the voltage down or afford a big electric bill.

Have fun!


rl525

[quasi]

I have a recall that one of the gun digests from the early 60s had an article on reusing primers . Sorry I can't get closer in time but I don't have those books anymore. Perhaps our gun librarian might? BvT

Actually, I think it was in Handloaders Digest, 2nd or 3rd edition. I think it was on "reloading" shotshell primers with large pistol primers.

[Old Ironsights]

Those paper poppers are usually Ammonium Iodide crystals. Lots of bang, no heat.

You can make them yourself by mixing clear amonia (no surfectant) and Iodine.

Titrate out the precipitate and you have the impact "explosive" Ammonium Iodide... lots of fun, but useless for "important" stuff...

[Bert2368]

Roll caps or the small plastic toy caps are usually chlorate compositions with Sulfur and Antimony sulfide, very rarely these days they might use red Phosphorous. These will ignite black powder, possibly some smokeless powders as well.

The little paper throw down "snaps" are actually silver fulminate. Tri nitrogen iodide is not used for ANY pyrotechnic, military or industrial uses whatsoever. Those who have made it and tried to handle it while dry understand why!

I don't recommend handling dry silver fulminate at all, but it is quite possible to dump the contents of several dozens of the little poppers into a small amount of water, agitate briskly then quickly, carefully pour the liquid into a filter paper while leaving the gravel on the bottom of the original container. The fine particles of fulminate will be found on the filter paper. Once these particles dry, they CAN NOT be handled safely. If you try to use this for priming, you may find the shock of inserting the primer or closing the gun's breech enough to set off the primer.

When fulminates were used in priming compositions industrially, it was invariably Mercury fulminate- Which is a bit safer to handle.

It is possible to set off a charge of fulminate with fine black powder sitting on top of it without igniting the powder! Fulminates were mixed with chlorate priming mixes as a sensitizer, the chlorate/fuel mix actually made the heat and hot particles that would ignite the propellant.

[delmar]

OK I had my first semi successful test today. I cut off the tips of four blue tip matches. Crushed them up, put them it the primer cup and reinserted the anvil. I decided to do the test with one of my plastic bullets http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=531763&postcount=19
just to make the experiment more meaningful. Problem is I knew before I tried it that a primer made with match tips would not have the power to fire my plastic bullet, on it's own. So I cheated a bit. I took a small soft bread crumb and covered the flash hole. Then I filled the primer pocket about half full of Universal before I seated the primer. I seated the plastic bullet. Put it in my .45 and fired it. It did go bang. The bullet did fire, but not with enough force to escape the end of the gun barrel.
Tomorrow I am going to try it again, with the powder inside the case where it belongs.

[TAWILDCATT]

I see some of you want to take a vacation for a long time.care of the atf.thats making explosives.plus its darn dangerous. the manuals are more for giurrila operations to get arms than for common use.many of use made many things before WW2 and a lot lost eyes and fingers.and I garentee you when they explode it hurts like begesus. DONT TRY IT.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[Bert2368]

I have several federal explosives licenses, and handle explosives for a living. I strongly agree with TAWILDCAT on the PHYSICAL DANGER of handling primary explosives and priming compositions.

But-

Believe it or not, you can make explosives for your own use without a federal license. You can't distribute, sell or even give away any explosives without a license. You can't store them improperly, which means you will need a proper magazine. You can't transport them in commerce without full and proper DOT compliance either (This is actually harder and more expensive than BATFE compliance for many).

On your own property, used the day you make them, you can darn well legally (at the federal level, anyways) manufacture and shoot explosives, barring state or local laws to the contrary.

The federal explosives laws are found here: ( The "orange book")
http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/2007edition/index.htm

[delmar]

I see some of you want to take a vacation for a long time.care of the atf.thats making explosives.plus its darn dangerous. the manuals are more for giurrila operations to get arms than for common use.many of use made many things before WW2 and a lot lost eyes and fingers.and I garentee you when they explode it hurts like begesus. DONT TRY IT.:coffee:[smilie=1:
Are you saying that reloading primers with match tips is illegal?

[delmar]

Success! I filled a primer cup with the tips of four matches. Then I crushed the red part of the dozen matches I had sitting around from prior attempts. I filled the primer pocket with the red powder, then seated the primmer. Then I added .5 cc of the red powder to the case before I seated my plastic bullet. That sucker went BANG! It was without a doubt the hottest plastic bullet load I have ever fired! Truth is I will probably have to tone it down a bit to keep the neighbors from getting mad.

[Junior1942]

Say, delmar, can you still see out of both eyes????

[gray wolf]

Just me sounding off here---but I think -IMHO- this thread has gone far enough.
We have enjoyed a good reputation here and I would hate to see it ruined.
Believe me I am no goody two shoes. But someone is going to get hurt.
Sorry boy's

GW.

[delmar]

Say, delmar, can you still see out of both eyes????
That match stick powder is not as explosive as gun powder and I'm not using as much as I would in loading a live round. It did pop pretty good but not loud enough to make my ears ring, and I was shooting indoors.

[delmar]

Just me sounding off here---but I think -IMHO- this thread has gone far enough.
We have enjoyed a good reputation here and I would hate to see it ruined.
Believe me I am no goody two shoes. But someone is going to get hurt.
Sorry boy's

GW.
Just to clarify, is it the idea of reloading a primer, in general that you think is dangerous? Or is there something, in particular about the process that I have described that appears to you to involve risk that I haven't thought of? If you believe I am encouraging people to try dangerous things, I will be glad to delete anything that falls into that category.

[gray wolf]

Just to clarify, is it the idea of reloading a primer, in general that you think is dangerous? Or is there something, in particular about the process that I have described that appears to you to involve risk that I haven't thought of? If you believe I am encouraging people to try dangerous things, I will be glad to delete anything that falls into that category.

NO.NO.
it is nothing to do with you. I was thinking this was not a good Idea because it might be taken the wrong way by some people. perhaps they would think we were getting a little out of hand.
Hey if it's ok with the board then let it rock.

G>W>

[delmar]

Just to clarify, is it the idea of reloading a primer, in general that you think is dangerous? Or is there something, in particular about the process that I have described that appears to you to involve risk that I haven't thought of? If you believe I am encouraging people to try dangerous things, I will be glad to delete anything that falls into that category.

NO.NO.
it is nothing to do with you. I was thinking this was not a good Idea because it might be taken the wrong way by some people. perhaps they would think we were getting a little out of hand.
Hey if it's ok with the board then let it rock.

G>W>
OK, i was wondering why it was more controversial to talk about reloading primers than to talk about reloading in general.
So, if I have it straight, you were more worried about people talking about the chemistry of explosives? I guess I agree with that. We don't want to come off as being part of the uni-bomber type nut fringe!

[Bert2368]

I got A's in high school and college chemistry, and I routinely interact with BATFE, DOT and many other legal authorities in the course of my business. I have never run afoul of the law beyond a speeding ticket 24 years ago. But nowadays, everyone knows that anyone who is knowledgable or even interested in chemistry is either a meth head or a crazed terrorist. And here I am, silly me thinking I'm a professional whos primary function is safety...

Don't worry, you are allready considered a fringe nut by what passes for the mainstream these days due to owning guns and reloading ammunition. You all repeatedly and deliberately set off home made explosive devices within a few inches of your face. Yes, ammunition is considered to be explosives. Haven't you noticed those 1.4S placards on the cases? Or don't you know what they mean???

Rant mode off.

[delmar]

I was an hour and a half away, at my in law's yesterday, and my mother in law gave me a dozen strike anywhere matches with which I developed a procedure that worked. So this morning I went out in search of a few boxes of strike anywhere matches. I stopped at four different stores only to find that strike anywhere matches are apparently getting as hard to find as primers! What I did find was a couple of rolls of caps and a box of strike on the box matches. So...
I cut one cap out of the roll and inserted it in the primer cup.
then I ground 4 match tips and poured the powder in the primer cup and tamped the mixture with the match stick, and inserted the anvil. I used .5cc of the match stick powder as a propellant in the case, then loaded the plastic bullet. Here is a quick video of the shot.
http://radar.net/people/DelStacy24/post/3258312/?from=/my-radar

The plastic bullet went through 4 layers of cardboard and put a small dent in the OSB backstop.
So far I have made 6 primers with this procedure. I have loaded 6 plastic bullets and all six fired when I pulled the trigger!

[waksupi]

I would think working the mixture wet would be a bit safer. I would use denatured alcohol, and add just a smidge of gum arabic to make sure things stay put in the primer cup.

[delmar]

I got A's in high school and college chemistry, and I routinely interact with BATFE, DOT and many other legal authorities in the course of my business. I have never run afoul of the law beyond a speeding ticket 24 years ago. But nowadays, everyone knows that anyone who is knowledgable or even interested in chemistry is either a meth head or a crazed terrorist. And here I am, silly me thinking I'm a professional whos primary function is safety...

Don't worry, you are allready considered a fringe nut by what passes for the mainstream these days due to owning guns and reloading ammunition. You all repeatedly and deliberately set off home made explosive devices within a few inches of your face. Yes, ammunition is considered to be explosives. Haven't you noticed those 1.4S placards on the cases? Or don't you know what they mean???

Rant mode off.
That was fun!
:drinks:

[klcarroll]

I can see it all now: .....Suddenly, for some incomprehensible reason, ……the public will be alarmed by a nation-wide shortage of “strike anywhere” matches!

…..And people on other forums will be starting threads describing how it is possible to make your own “strike anywhere” matches by disassembling firearms primers and utilizing the compound found within.[smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:


Kent

[delmar]

I would think working the mixture wet would be a bit safer. I would use denatured alcohol, and add just a smidge of gum arabic to make sure things stay put in the primer cup.

I only scrape off enough match tips for one primer at a time. I wear eye protection always and the stuff packs tight enough that when I press the anvil in it isn't going anywhere. Plus I prime the case as soon as the primer is made. Seems like a pretty reliable procedure.

[delmar]

I can see it all now: .....Suddenly, for some incomprehensible reason, ……the public will be alarmed by a nation-wide shortage of “strike anywhere” matches!

…..And people on other forums will be starting threads describing how it is possible to make your own “strike anywhere” matches by disassembling firearms primers and utilizing the compound found within.[smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:


Kent
I think it could happen exactly that way. I, on the other hand, have evolved beyond the need for strike anywhere matches! (read post #55)

[Mtman314]

I seen a very good book the other day called The ultimate do-it-yourself primer cookbook published by M&M Engineering 802-375-9484

It's for informational purposes only.

Ace hardware is the only place I know that carries strike anywhere matches.

To bad you can't find ohio blue tips anymore.

Or you could always contact the Militia of Montana they got quite a few books. 406-847-2735

[Old Ironsights]

Re: Delmar post #55/roll caps...

SCHWEET!

I knew there had to be someone as OC as me who would come up with a GI workaround for no Strike-anywhere matches... :mrgreen:

[delmar]

Ace hardware is the only place I know that carries strike anywhere matches.

To bad you can't find ohio blue tips anymore.


I stopped at Meijer, Walgreens, Lowes, and Walmat, in that order. My next stop was going to be ace hardware, but I found the roll caps at Walmart and decided to try them first. 1200 shots for $2.29 and in my opinion a little easier to use than scraping the tip off of the strike anywhere matches.

[rhead]

With the roll cap and match head, was there any hint of a hang fire?


If you fail to find the strike anywhere matches you can always get the fire started by using flint and steel. Has anyone ever shortened the loop and tried to get the gun to fire by going directly to flint and steel striking together? Oh yeah we have already done that.

[Linstrum]

A word of warning about starting to mix different things together like the multitude of compounds used in cap pistol caps, match heads, party poppers, etc. It is within the realm of possibilty to accidentally get a hypergollic mixture together that will spontaneously ignite after a few minutes, hours, days, or weeks! The culprit is potassium chlorate, which reacts when slightly moist with acid formers like sulfur, phosphorus trisulfide, etc, which undergoes a redox reaction to produce an acid such as sulfuric acid or one of the phosphoric acids. The acid in turn reacts with the potassium chlorate to specifically make chloric acid, a highly unstable as well as energetic oxidizer that by itself will detonate in tiny amounts.

You guys be careful if you don't have a background in what you are messing with. :confused: The old WW1-WW2 Frankford Arsenal mixture is easy to make and well proven to be safe when stored dry, it would be my choice if I ever needed to restuff my own primers. I have a few early 1950s Lake City cartridges with the old corrosive Frankford mixture that are still good.


rl526

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Just for those that are worried about the Fed regs on what we do in our own home / place. Big Brother has a lot to do with the situation that looms on our horizon. The bottom line is they want to disarm us. I wonder why, because it sure isn't because they are worried about our safety.

If we get to the point of needing a primer replacement, I don't want to do the experimenting at that time. I figure I will be to busy trying to stay alive. If I know it works, I'll use it, if need be, until I can secure regular ammo.

I don't give 2 hoots about what some Fed regulation for explosives says at this point, I'm sure they have a reg. for anything we might be doing, if not they will make one....

[Nora]

Has any one heard what the real reason was for the strike any where's being no longer sold post 9-11. The only thing I could think of was it was to help the pipe bomb fanatic's keep all their fingers. Though maybe the loss of them wouldn't be such a bad thing either IMO. (their fingers that is)

[delmar]

A word of warning about starting to mix different things together like the multitude of compounds used in cap pistol caps, match heads, party poppers, etc. It is within the realm of possibilty to accidentally get a hypergollic mixture together that will spontaneously ignite after a few minutes, hours, days, or weeks! The culprit is potassium chlorate, which reacts when slightly moist with acid formers like sulfur, phosphorus trisulfide, etc, which undergoes a redox reaction to produce an acid such as sulfuric acid or one of the phosphoric acids. The acid in turn reacts with the potassium chlorate to specifically make chloric acid, a highly unstable as well as energetic oxidizer that by itself will detonate in tiny amounts.Thanks for the warning. What you have said makes a great deal of sense. I will make sure to keep my caps and matchsticks dry and I won't try to store my primers once made. If I make many more of these it will only be for same day target shooting.Load em, shoot em, clean the gun.


You guys be careful if you don't have a background in what you are messing with. :confused: The old WW1-WW2 Frankford Arsenal mixture is easy to make and well proven to be safe when stored dry, it would be my choice if I ever needed to restuff my own primers. I have a few early 1950s Lake City cartridges with the old corrosive Frankford mixture that are still good.


rl526
Will the Frankford Arsenal mixture detonate with percussion? Don't you need something else to set it off?

[Linstrum]

Hi, delmar, the Frankford Arsenal mixture is what the United States Military used for all .45ACP and .30-06 cartridges from World War One through World War Two and Korea (1917 through 1953).


The “recipe” or formula is given in Hatcher's Notebook and is straightforward with nothing mysterious about how it is made. The ingredients were once very commonly available, and with a little work and research are still commonly available. The antimony trisulfide Sb2S3 is available from pottery supply places, sulfur dust is used for anti-fungal dusting in grapes and some other fruits, and potassium chlorate you can make yourself through several simple means (the easiest is by letting a gallon jug of ordinary chlorine bleach dry up in a glass pan and then adding potassium chloride salt substitute). The ground glass can be substituted with fine quartz sand if you are afraid to handle ground glass.


Go back up to my other posts, I mentioned a few other details there, too. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using toy pistol caps and strike anywhere match heads for priming, my dad used them back in the 1920s and 1930s in Utah when they had to reload their own .22s to put meat on the table. I have used the plastic cup caps in my replica 1858 Remington .44 pistol myself, they work great with black powder. The Frankford mixture is a more reliable priming compound, otherwise the toy pistol caps and match head compounds is what the military would have used instead.

I wouldn't make up more than a few grains of the priming stuff at a time, even a few grains contains enough energy to kill you. Have fun but be darn careful with this stuff, it is SUPPOSED to be very shock and friction sensitive! Unlike most gun powder, it is also static electricity sensitive because of the antimony trisulfide.


rl527

[delmar]

Hi, delmar, the Frankford Arsenal mixture is what the United States Military used for all .45ACP and .30-06 cartridges from World War One through World War Two and Korea (1917 through 1953).


The “recipe” or formula is given in Hatcher's Notebook and is straightforward with nothing mysterious about how it is made. The ingredients were once very commonly available, and with a little work and research are still commonly available. The antimony trisulfide Sb2S3 is available from pottery supply places, sulfur dust is used for anti-fungal dusting in grapes and some other fruits, and potassium chlorate you can make yourself through several simple means (the easiest is by letting a gallon jug of ordinary chlorine bleach dry up in a glass pan and then adding potassium chloride salt substitute). The ground glass can be substituted with fine quartz sand if you are afraid to handle ground glass.


Go back up to my other posts, I mentioned a few other details there, too. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using toy pistol caps and strike anywhere match heads for priming, my dad used them back in the 1920s and 1930s in Utah when they had to reload their own .22s to put meat on the table. I have used the plastic cup caps in my replica 1858 Remington .44 pistol myself, they work great with black powder. The Frankford mixture is a more reliable priming compound, otherwise the toy pistol caps and match head compounds is what the military would have used instead.

I wouldn't make up more than a few grains of the priming stuff at a time, even a few grains contains enough energy to kill you. Have fun but be darn careful with this stuff, it is SUPPOSED to be very shock and friction sensitive! Unlike most gun powder, it is also static electricity sensitive because of the antimony trisulfide.


rl527

I gave up on looking for the strike anywhere matches after the 4th store. So I am probably not going to mess with finding all that stuff. I really had fun making primers with nothing but stuff I can buy at Walmart, though.
One thing that just dawned on me is that I never tried using the strike on the box matches without inserting a roll cap first. I'm going to give that a try today and report back. Worst that will happen is it won't go bang.

[delmar]

One thing that just dawned on me is that I never tried using the strike on the box matches without inserting a roll cap first. I'm going to give that a try today and report back. Worst that will happen is it won't go bang.
OK, that test was a bit of a bust. It did go off but made more smoke than pop. once again I had to push my plastic bullet out of the barrel with a dowel rod. It is important to know what does not work, I guess.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Hey guys, I'm all for threads like this.

Yes the things we do can be dangerous. But it is precisely the "risk free" world that the extreme left would like to create that has got us into the primer shortage.

Keep in mind, there is nothing wrong with taking risks. Just make sure that the benefits outweigh those risks.

Aquiring knowlege and skill in self-sufficiency seems like a benefit worth at least some level of risk. And that benefit can be all the greater when situations grow dire.

Sometimes there is a skill involved as well as the know-how. For example - flint & steel fire starting. We all know that fires can be started by striking steel against sharp flint. However, if you wait until you desparately need a fire & you're out of matches before trying flint & steel you may be as good as dead.

Such may be the case with these home-made primer jobs. If you wait until you truly need a home-made primer you probably won't have the time to putz with learning all the skills needed.

In short, I find these threads very useful & beneficial. It's also good to have guys on here giving voice to caution.

[delmar]

Hey guys, I'm all for threads like this.

Yes the things we do can be dangerous. But it is precisely the "risk free" world that the extreme left would like to create that has got us into the primer shortage.

Keep in mind, there is nothing wrong with taking risks. Just make sure that the benefits outweigh those risks.

Aquiring knowlege and skill in self-sufficiency seems like a benefit worth at least some level of risk. And that benefit can be all the greater when situations grow dire.

Sometimes there is a skill involved as well as the know-how. For example - flint & steel fire starting. We all know that fires can be started by striking steel against sharp flint. However, if you wait until you desparately need a fire & you're out of matches before trying flint & steel you may be as good as dead.

Such may be the case with these home-made primer jobs. If you wait until you truly need a home-made primer you probably won't have the time to putz with learning all the skills needed.

In short, I find these threads very useful & beneficial. It's also good to have guys on here giving voice to caution.

Can I get an AMEN?

[rhead]

Keep notes also. Record what happened on the attempts that did not work, What did it do instead of what you were wanting. That knowledge may be useful solving some future problem. It may be a waste of paper but paper is cheap.

[delmar]

With the roll cap and match head, was there any hint of a hang fire?
I'm not exactly sure what the term hang fire means but I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. The match stick powder and the cap that was cut from the roll were inside the primer so I'm not really sure what could be observed untill I deprime the case.


If you fail to find the strike anywhere matches you can always get the fire started by using flint and steel. Has anyone ever shortened the loop and tried to get the gun to fire by going directly to flint and steel striking together? Oh yeah we have already done that.
It seems to me that flint and steel thing would take a lot more improvisation, on a .45 acp, than reloading a primer.

[Old Ironsights]

Hey guys, I'm all for threads like this.

Yes the things we do can be dangerous. But it is precisely the "risk free" world that the extreme left would like to create that has got us into the primer shortage.

Keep in mind, there is nothing wrong with taking risks. Just make sure that the benefits outweigh those risks.

Aquiring knowlege and skill in self-sufficiency seems like a benefit worth at least some level of risk. And that benefit can be all the greater when situations grow dire.

Sometimes there is a skill involved as well as the know-how. For example - flint & steel fire starting. We all know that fires can be started by striking steel against sharp flint. However, if you wait until you desparately need a fire & you're out of matches before trying flint & steel you may be as good as dead.

Such may be the case with these home-made primer jobs. If you wait until you truly need a home-made primer you probably won't have the time to putz with learning all the skills needed.

In short, I find these threads very useful & beneficial. It's also good to have guys on here giving voice to caution.
Imagine how much more rapidly gunpowder/firearms development would have progressed if the alchemists & warriors of the 12th century had had discussions like this...

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It seems to me that flint and steel thing would take a lot more improvisation, on a .45 acp, than reloading a primer.


Well, I'm not too concerned about the primer shortage since I've already got a gun that ignites powder via flint & steel. However, my black powder stock pile is running a tad low & the U.S. Post Office completely botched the delivery of my federal tax return. It's looking like I'll have to make my black powder last for another couple months before I get Obama to mail me another check.

Now there's a question for you chemists - come up with a black powder substitute that functions well in a flintlock!

[waksupi]

Ohboyohboyohboy! We're finally going to re-invent the flintlock! I've been waiting for this!

[KCSO]

How 'bout an inline flinter with a plastic stock and a quick twist barrel for 50 caliber to 22 caliber jacketed sabot's. We'll load it with 300 grans of FFFFg powder compressed into a rocket charge. We can mount a 12x36 scope on top and have a built in bipod. OH BOY I just can't wait.

Sad to see fellows worried about making primers from match heads as this is what the natives in India had to do under British (Brutish) rule.

[Linstrum]

Some modern improvements have been made to flintlocks but I haven't kept current on anything within the last two decades. What I read was the use of tungsten carbide to replace the flint, and titanium or Misch metal (Misch metal what is used in cigarrette lighters and welder's oxy-acetylene torch strikers) used to replace the steel. If you have ever ground a piece of the titanium alloy called Al6 V4 on a bench grinder you will see just how darn good it is compared to steel! Some bikers nail titanium chunks onto their boots to drag on the pavement, it really makes showers of bright blue-white sparks. Anyway, yeah, the flintlock can be improved, and as well I wouldn't be afraid to make a modern wheel-lock from AISI 4140 chrome-moly steel using a tiny silicon carbide grinding wheel and a chunk of Al6 V4 to ignite smokeless powder, although the blast from the vent hole may be a bit much at 50,000 psi! Another thing that will get totally away from chemical reaction priming methods is to go to electric priming like old-fashioned flash bulbs use. A piece of hair-sized zinc wire when shorted across a D-cell battery makes an impressive flash. How about Diesel ignition? All that uses is just plain old ordinary air- that's it. The cartridge has a vent hole like normal, but the bolt has a mating vent that communicates with an air compression cylnder in the back of the bolt. It works by having a spring-loaded piston released by the trigger that slams forward in the cylinder, compressing the air to 1000-psi. The temperature of the air is well into red heat at that pressure if compressed in a few milliseconds, and even a small jet of red hot air injected into the cartridge will ignite the powder no problem. Air rifle shooters already have the problem of their guns "dieseling" when a bit too much oil is left in the air cylinder - they say the unmistakable odor of diesel exhaust can be smelled in the air rifle barrel. Ether, like is used in starting fluid and old-fashioned anesthetic, "diesels" at a pretty low pressure and could be used as a sensitizer for a diesel ignition system in a rifle. Acetylene also diesels at a low pressure, 15-psi is the maximum safe pressure to handle acetylene gas outside of the acetone solution that is used in acetylene welding tanks.

Just some thoughts to keep you guys busy. I like the zinc wire and diesel primers myself and setting up an experiment to try them is not that difficult for those among us who have a lathe. Owning a milling machine wouldn't exactly hurt, either.


rl528

[HORNET]

Linstrum, why not go the easy way and set one up for piezo-electric ignition? Strip down a cheapo butane lighter, get the spark gap into the powder chamber, set up a fast, light striker for short lock time with a sealed breech.....

[delmar]

Ace hardware is the only place I know that carries strike anywhere matches.



I stopped by Ace Hardware yesterday and they do carry the strike anywhere matches. Thanks for the heads up. No more mixing match stick powder and caps, for me.

[Linstrum]

Hi, Hornet, thanks for the piezo-electric idea, it could be made to work with some effort, like having an air-propane mixture inside the cartridge along with the powder, but unfortunately black powder as well as modern smokeless powders are fairly immmune to electric sparks. The electric spark insensitivity of powders has already been well-covered awhile back here on another thread. But that is a good idea, keep 'em coming!


rl529

[Linstrum]

Simple manufacturing of potassium chlorate

There is an easy-to-read pamphlet that was written about a quarter century ago (but is still available) that describes how one chemist was able to easily make potassium chlorate with very simple equipment and materials without the need for any expensive laboratory equipment and chemicals. He describes how he used commonly available equipment and materials, including a big Pyrex kitchen bowl; high amperage-output 6-volt battery charger; inexpensive potassium chloride used in sodium-free water softeners or as a dietary supplement/salt substitute readily available in super markets; thin steel plate scraps; and graphite bars he got from a welding supply store and from discarded large dry cell batteries.


The pamphlet describing how he manufactured potassium chlorate is offered strictly for its educational and historical value only and its author does not endorse the manufacture or use of potassium chlorate for any purpose. If you intend to make potassium chlorate for any purpose please don't purchase it. Cast Boolits, The Cast Boolit Group, gunloads.com, their owners and all associates, are not connected in any way with the pamphlet or its sale and distribution.


The copyrighted seven page 8.5” x 11” pamphlet was researched and professionally written by the chemist and contains a large diagram of how his equipment was set up plus contains the step-by-step descriptions of all the very simple procedures he went through that are involved in the manufacture of very pure potassium chlorate. It is not one of those hastily thrown together make-an-easy-buck pamphlets full of dangerous misinformation not worth the paper it is printed on. The cost of the pamphlet is $12.00 USD. For information on how to get a copy please send me a private message.

[delmar]

Simple manufacturing of potassium chlorate

There is an easy-to-read pamphlet that was written about a quarter century ago (but is still available) that describes how one chemist was able to easily make potassium chlorate with very simple equipment and materials without the need for any expensive laboratory equipment and chemicals. He describes how he used commonly available equipment and materials, including a big Pyrex kitchen bowl; high amperage-output 6-volt battery charger; inexpensive potassium chloride used in sodium-free water softeners or as a dietary supplement/salt substitute readily available in super markets; thin steel plate scraps; and graphite bars he got from a welding supply store and from discarded large dry cell batteries.


The pamphlet describing how he manufactured potassium chlorate is offered strictly for its educational and historical value only and its author does not endorse the manufacture or use of potassium chlorate for any purpose. If you intend to make potassium chlorate for any purpose please don't purchase it. Cast Boolits, The Cast Boolit Group, gunloads.com, their owners and all associates, are not connected in any way with the pamphlet or its sale and distribution.


The copyrighted seven page 8.5” x 11” pamphlet was researched and professionally written by the chemist and contains a large diagram of how his equipment was set up plus contains the step-by-step descriptions of all the very simple procedures he went through that are involved in the manufacture of very pure potassium chlorate. It is not one of those hastily thrown together make-an-easy-buck pamphlets full of dangerous misinformation not worth the paper it is printed on. The cost of the pamphlet is $12.00 USD. For information on how to get a copy please send me a private message.

I looked up the MSDS for Diamond strike anywhere matches...
http://hazard.com/msds/f2/bxj/bxjvn.html
the tips are made of PHOSPHORUS SESQUISULFIDE
and the Match heads are made of POTASSIUM CHLORATE and POTASSIUM DICHROMATE. I could not find the MSDS for strike on the box matches, but it would seem like they are the same, without the PHOSPHORUS SESQUISULFIDE tip.

[stubshaft]

Great idea. What do you use for powder and bullet?

[Recluse]

I live in the suburbs of Chicago: .....Hunting for my family's meals has never been real high on my list of survival options.

Even an experienced hunter like yourself would starve pretty fast here in Northern Illinois: ....Particularly competing against about a million like-minded people! (....Unless, of course, you like the taste of man-steaks!)[smilie=1:


My comments were made based on practical reality:

First of all, I have always made sure that I stock enough primers for the powder I have in inventory: ….If I’m out of primers, then that means that I am also out of powder.

Secondly, I have a MINIMUM of 500 rounds on hand for each caliber I shoot, …..And components for about twice that number. If the day comes when primers, powder and ammunition are no longer available, …the only thing that will stop are my weekly trips to the target range; ….as I will then (obviously) be saving my ammunition for “more important matters”.

Finally, ….I am a realist: If the day comes when I actually NEED all that ammo, ……I know that my chances of needing more later are “Slim and None”!

Kent

Kent,

One of the things I found out in the service (like almost everyone else who's been in uniform and/or smelled smoke doing it) is that a country boy can survive in the city a heckuva lot better and easier than a city boy can survive in the country. Saw it first hand in survival school and SERE school. . . and places far less pleasant than training schools.

As far the rest of your comments up above, I understand and pretty much agree except for the very last statement.

I too, have plenty upon plenty of loaded ammo for everything I own, plus ammo for stuff I don't own-but can either acquire through trade, barter or just flat stealing it if comes down to it.

But for the very last statement, if it ever does come down to "needing all that ammo," I know for a fact I'm going to need a whole lot more down the road.

I just hope and pray it never comes down to that. I really do. Because if it does, guns aren't the only thing we've lost--we will have lost our entire Constitution, and with it, the America we once knew.

:coffee:

[delmar]

Great idea. What do you use for powder and bullet?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=531763&postcount=19

These are the bullets I am doing my initial testing with. The improvised primer is not enough to fire them with so I have been using the crushed match heads as powder to fire them with. Not recommending that for real bullets, but it proves I can set off powder. Besides I can target shoot with these babies and save my store bought primers for the real thing.

[delmar]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=531763&postcount=19

These are the bullets I am doing my initial testing with. The improvised primer is not enough to fire them with so I have been using the crushed match heads as powder to fire them with. Not recommending that for real bullets, but it proves I can set off powder. Besides I can target shoot with these babies and save my store bought primers for the real thing.
Check out the gun powder section of this book (http://fliiby.com/file/34127/3qv4b6zoo3.html) It seems there are people who have used nothing but crushed match stick heads as gun powder in live rounds. They even list rudimentary load data!

[Bert2368]

I can't recomend a chlorate based propellant. It was tried, repeatedly from the time chlorate became available in the 1700's. The performance was better than standard black powder, but the manufacturing was too dangerous. Black powder remained the only really servicable propellant untill smokeless came along.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oFdLAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=killed+chlorate+stamp+mill+french&source=bl&ots=sKQaq1ZJR4&sig=2Q4ka6yRcY3IpTl-bV8G-p1ttkw&hl=en&ei=ANPjScOEEYvvnQfDi8iyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Have you had your first accidental ignition yet? I did much of what you are doing before the age of 18, and I recall several instances of blackened and smarting fingers before I would believe what my dad told me about trying to scrounge chlorate priming from cap/match head mixtures. Later when I DEFINITELY should have known better, I just had to try chlorate and red phosphorous. That doesn't blacken your fingers... It removes them.

You wouldn't believe without seeing it how little of a primary it will take to maim a hand. 2 or 3 grains of some of these is more than enough to remove fingers. If you want to travel this road, keep your quantities VERY small, and do careful research. I can still count to 10 without taking off my shoes, but in my early days with energetics that was largely a matter of luck. Luck is a poor safety policy.

[delmar]

I can't recomend a chlorate based propellant. It was tried, repeatedly from the time chlorate became available in the 1700's. The performance was better than standard black powder, but the manufacturing was too dangerous. Black powder remained the only really servicable propellant untill smokeless came along.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oFdLAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=killed+chlorate+stamp+mill+french&source=bl&ots=sKQaq1ZJR4&sig=2Q4ka6yRcY3IpTl-bV8G-p1ttkw&hl=en&ei=ANPjScOEEYvvnQfDi8iyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Have you had your first accidental ignition yet? I did much of what you are doing before the age of 18, and I recall several instances of blackened and smarting fingers before I would believe what my dad told me about trying to scrounge chlorate priming from cap/match head mixtures. Later when I DEFINITELY should have known better, I just had to try chlorate and red phosphorous. That doesn't blacken your fingers... It removes them.

You wouldn't believe without seeing it how little of a primary it will take to maim a hand. 2 or 3 grains of some of these is more than enough to remove fingers. If you want to travel this road, keep your quantities VERY small, and do careful research. I can still count to 10 without taking off my shoes, but in my early days with energetics that was largely a matter of luck. Luck is a poor safety policy.

The match head powder, while it does contain potassium chlorate also contains potassium dichromate which enables the oxidizer to part with its oxygen with a lower input of energy than would otherwise be needed. In other words, it allows the oxidizer to decompose at a lower temperature. I am very much in agreement, that the biggest and most violent boom is not the best thing to load in your gun.

[delmar]

I was talking to a guy yesterday,who happens to be a Chemist by trade, about making primers primers from match stick tips. He seemed to think it would be safe with my plastic bullets but said it would create to much pressure in a live round. The match stick primers are less powerful than standard primers. Does it make sense to anyone else that a less powerful primer could increase the pressure in the case? I know someone else was saying the other day that if you substitute magnum primers for standard you need to lighten the charge?

[Bert2368]

Different primer compositions certainly give different pressures in use. The class of priming compositions that the match head mix most closely approximates was widely used for about a century with all types of powders, both single and double based smokeless, semi-smokeless and black powder with good success. If you are going to try it with modern smokeless, start near the bottom of the suggested charge and work up- I'd also be wartchfull of the recycled primer cups due to embrittlement from work hardening caused by re-using them.

I don't mean to disparage your chemist friend personally, but chemists often think that their theoretical chemical knowledge provides an understanding of pyrotechnics and related engineering issues. Lots of dead and maimed chemists who attempted formulating pyrotechnic compositions attest to this.

[delmar]

Different primer compositions certainly give different pressures in use. The class of priming compositions that the match head mix most closely approximates was widely used for about a century with all types of powders, both single and double based smokeless, semi-smokeless and black powder with good success. If you are going to try it with modern smokeless, start near the bottom of the suggested charge and work up- I'd also be wartchfull of the recycled primer cups due to embrittlement from work hardening caused by re-using them.

I don't mean to disparage your chemist friend personally, but chemists often think that their theoretical chemical knowledge provides an understanding of pyrotechnics and related engineering issues. Lots of dead and maimed chemists who attempted formulating pyrotechnic compositions attest to this.

I have had pretty good success with pounding the dents out of the primer cups. I think that the worst that would happen is failure to fire.

[delmar]

I finally put some stuff on youtube

Loading primers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7nphPRG6JA&feature=channel_page

Firing a match stick primer. This is just the primer in the case with no bullet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZdaERbaQLo&feature=channel

Firing a loaded round with real lead and some Clay's Universal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0qRhDMRCFM&feature=channel

Making match stick gunpowder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozsl4WUklqM&feature=channel

Since I'm showing off, blowing out the candles at my 50th birthday party, just over a year ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTtZ5ekEk5w&feature=channel
I told my wife that at this point she only gets to put all the candles on every ten years.

[waksupi]

Interesting. I would think it may be a bit safer to drop the primer cup in a hand primer, turn things upside down ,and seat it.

[delmar]

Interesting. I would think it may be a bit safer to drop the primer cup in a hand primer, turn things upside down ,and seat it.
I have primed hundreds of cases with that c clamp. They go in really smooth and I can feel if they are going in straight. There is no chance I am changing that, any time soon.

[gnoahhh]

In the book "They Fought Alone" (Wendell Fertig's exploits while leading the guerillas on Mindanao in the Phillipines, 1942-1945) there is a description of something very similar to what's been described in this thread. They (the Americans who declined surrender to the Japanese and their Filipino comrades) found themselves running out of ammo for their '03 Springfields. One day Fertig saw a Filipino trying to clean his rifle with a brass curtain rod, which wouldn't quite fit into the bore. A light bulb went off in his head and he put the women in the village to work cutting up all of the curtain rods they could find into 1" pieces, and then grind a point onto them with stones. Voila, bullets. For primers he did exactly as described above with match heads. Voila, primers. For powder, he had some young guys swim out into the lagoon and bring in a Japanese sea mine that had floated in. They took the powder (God knows what it was) out of the mine and measured a small bit of it into the "primed" case and seated a curtain rod bullet. It went bang. By all accounts recoil and muzzle blast was horrific. But it went bang and the rifle stayed together. They proceeded to load up a bunch more and issued them to the boys. The idea was to use it to kill a Japanese soldier and then re-equip with the dead guy's rifle and ammo. All guerillas so armed were under strict orders to bring back all empty brass after an ambush/firefight. Guys who didn't were actually made to go back and find the emptys they left behind! Talk about serious reloaders!

As an aside, they continued using reloaded '06's and captured Japanese stuff until they made radio contact with Australia. After that, U.S submarines delivered arms and ammo to them. When asked for a "shopping list" Fertig said he wanted shotguns, for the jungle fighting they were doing. When the sub commander pointed out the limited cargo carrying capability of the sub (it was a space issue, not weight) by telling him he could have hundreds of M1 carbine rounds in the same space taken up by 25 12 gauge 00 Buckshot cartridges, Fertig opted for the carbines. By war's end they had wrestled control of most of the island of Mindanao (the largest in the Phillipines) from the Japanese, before the first U.S Army troops ever landed there.

Reloading pays!

[Bert2368]

I'd like you to switch to non ferrous tools for crushing the priming composition rather than a steel hammer head. Using a paper surface IS a good idea.

[delmar]

I'd like you to switch to non ferrous tools for crushing the priming composition rather than a steel hammer head. Using a paper surface IS a good idea.
How come? Sparks?

[Linstrum]

Hi, delmar,

Yup! Iron, cast iron, and steel tools are a strict NO-NO when working with anything easily ignited. If your tool is magnetic, then it is very likely made from a sparking material.

In powder and explosives factories; ammo assembly factories where loose bulk powders and primer components are present; oil refineries; petroleum handling facilities such as oil wells, pipeline pump stations, tank farms, and natural gas/LP gas distribution facilities; all the construction tools, mechanic tools, and maintenance tools are made from non-sparking materials like beryllium copper, phosphor bronze, 300-series stainless steels, and plastic. All the screw drivers, socket wrenches and their drive ratchets and breaker bars, end wrenches, claw hammers, ball-pein hammers, Crescent wrenches, pipe wrenches, picks, shovels, and EVERYTHING else that could otherwise spark while in use, struck, or when dropped is made from a non-sparking material.

Of course primer compounds are among the most ignition-sensitive of all flammable materials, so when working with them you need to absolutely minimize the risks of accidental ignition by using things like brass, aluminum, wood, plastic, paper, etc. to stay out of trouble.


rl540

[Bert2368]

How come? Sparks?

Yes. Also friction. I have text books on explosives with tables showing the ammount of force needed to ignite different compositions when weights are dropped or dragged over them. The friction ignition weight measurements vary depending on the material of the surface the explosives are sitting on, and the material of the "shoe" (the weight that is being dragged over the explosive).

Iron on Iron is the most dangerous combination listed. Iron on wood (approximately what you are doing) isn't so good either. Wood on wood is the safest, I would get a couple of nice hard piece of oak, maple or such for what you are doing.

Brass would be an OK choice for black powder mixtures, but it isn't a good idea with chlorates. Copper compounds from the brass can sensitize chlorate mixtures. I use a non sparking stainless steel screen for mixing powdered chlorate compositions. But I wouldn't grind the completed mix between a couple of pieces of the same steel!

Be aware that the match head mix has ground glass added to increase friction sensitivity. Match heads have been deliberately made JUST safe enough to handle and ship... They are mixed and applied wet at the factories, which helps to prevent accidents.

Did you make those videos at your reloading bench? Inside your house, or garage?

A couple of match heads at a time are not a huge danger, but you and I both know SOMEONE will be tempted to make 50 or 100 primers at a time. He had better be wearing safety glasses and a face shield, leather gloves, long sleeved cotton shirt and pants at a minimum, and a set of welder's leathers wouldn't be a bad idea either. He also shouldn't be in his reloading area with his powder on the bench next to him. Or inside a garage or shed with gas cans, a lawn mower with a filled gas tank, etc. Or inside any structure at all that he isn't prepared to lose.

"People having explosives under their charge should allways proceed on the hypothesis of an explosion"

That's a fancy way of saying that it's not a matter of IF there will be an accident, just WHEN. This is a safety maxim as basic to my industry as checking the chamber of every gun you handle is to shooters.

I'm not trying to be mean or rain on the parade, I just want you and others to stay alive and out of burn units.

[Paul]

I save my old primers, Just cause. ////// Once I thought I might use them for gas checks on small bullets. but I save a lot of stuff. Last week I threw out the primers trays (plastic) & boxes from up to 30 years ago!! Honest Truth !! I will try someday to reload my primers.... Thanks again for this great site.

Paul

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Guys
I just thought I would add my attempts to the effort. I have been working with rebuilding berdan primers and using berdan cases. If you use water to pop the berdan primers ,they are not damaged. With no internal anvil ,they are easy to work with. I have had my best success punching out two toy pistol caps and half filling the primer pocket with HP38 pistol powder. The case is inverted and placed on a rod to hold it . The powder is then dumped into the primer pocket. The punched out caps are placed over the powder. The dots must be centered well and the the punched caps are big enough to be a push in fit in the pocket. The case can now be held upright and the primer cup seated normally. I seat them flush with the case bottom. The quality of the pistol caps leaves much to be desired. You have to pick out the bigger ones for this use. I have found the Super Bang (love the name) caps to be the best I can get.
Actual results have been ok only. I have only used these for cast loads and about eight out of ten fire on the first strike. The duds ususlly fire the second time.
Ignition is fast and accuracy is ok too.
I'm trying to refine this for more reliability. Right now I'm seeing if it makes any improvement with which direction the caps are inserted into the pocket. I have tried three caps and had more duds than with two.
All so far all have been used in a 8mm mauser with average striker power.
n.h.schmidt

[delmar]

Hi Guys
I just thought I would add my attempts to the effort. I have been working with rebuilding berdan primers and using berdan cases. If you use water to pop the berdan primers ,they are not damaged. With no internal anvil ,they are easy to work with. I have had my best success punching out two toy pistol caps and half filling the primer pocket with HP38 pistol powder. The case is inverted and placed on a rod to hold it . The powder is then dumped into the primer pocket. The punched out caps are placed over the powder. The dots must be centered well and the the punched caps are big enough to be a push in fit in the pocket. The case can now be held upright and the primer cup seated normally. I seat them flush with the case bottom. The quality of the pistol caps leaves much to be desired. You have to pick out the bigger ones for this use. I have found the Super Bang (love the name) caps to be the best I can get.
Actual results have been ok only. I have only used these for cast loads and about eight out of ten fire on the first strike. The duds ususlly fire the second time.
Ignition is fast and accuracy is ok too.
I'm trying to refine this for more reliability. Right now I'm seeing if it makes any improvement with which direction the caps are inserted into the pocket. I have tried three caps and had more duds than with two.
All so far all have been used in a 8mm mauser with average striker power.
n.h.schmidt
When I was messing with roll caps, I actually had a lot of success with one. and yes it does make a difference which way you place the cap. put the bump toward the primer cup so that the firing pin stikes it.

[delmar]

OK I admit it. My "If ammo and primers dried up" thread, was a bit of a ploy to generate interest in reviving this thread. It doesn't seem to be working very well.

[Wayne Smith]

Wood on wood is the safest, I would get a couple of nice hard piece of oak, maple or such for what you are doing.



I haven't commented up to now because I don't know chemistry. Wood I do know. DO NOT USE OAK. Or any other open pored wood like Walnut, either. Use closed pore wood like hard (rock) Maple or one of the closed pore tropical woods like Brazilian Cherry.

I don't want to be there after someone has jammed the pores of the wood full of priming compound and then hits it just a little too hard!

I would suggest turning a mortar and pestle out of one of the woods mentioned.

[delmar]

I haven't commented up to now because I don't know chemistry. Wood I do know. DO NOT USE OAK. Or any other open pored wood like Walnut, either. Use closed pore wood like hard (rock) Maple or one of the closed pore tropical woods like Brazilian Cherry.

I don't want to be there after someone has jammed the pores of the wood full of priming compound and then hits it just a little too hard!

I would suggest turning a mortar and pestle out of one of the woods mentioned.
I have some scrap Maple close to an inch thick. I was thinking of cutting a circle out with a 3" hole saw, sanding the edges good and using that.

[Linstrum]

Using maple sounds good, I used a wooden mortar and pestle made from native Arizona tesota iron wood, a member of the mesquite family.

When using wooden processing tools for explosive materials stay away from laminated wood because of potential troubles caused by the adhesive. If an epoxy adhesive is used it may contain cobalt naphthanate as the catalyst, and even in micro amounts cobalt naphthanate will sensitize and detonate some explosive compounds.


rl561

[Wayne Smith]

I have some scrap Maple close to an inch thick. I was thinking of cutting a circle out with a 3" hole saw, sanding the edges good and using that.

Ah, I think that will give you a hole through your maple but no surface to work on. If you hole saw part way through how do you get the plug out? You want to make a relatively shallow basin in the board. If you have a drill motor punch a hole in a tennis ball, glue it to a dowel, and glue sandpaper to the tennis ball. Use this to make a basin. Start with a relatively coarse sandpaper and proceed through 300 or even 600 grit. You want it as smooth as possible with no other finish. Very fine sandpaper is available through Auto shops for Auto body work. Through 1500 grit.

You can probably come up with other ways to make a shallow basin. I prefer a lathe cause I have one and can do the whole job with just that as a major tool.

[Jon]

Had a friend do that with small pistol primers just to prove it worked - seemed like he used some liquid and made a paste of the tips that had to dry after the anvil was inserted. They all went bang ! And I believe you can use the rest of the matchhead as a propellant. Actually, it may be as hard to find those self striking matches as it is to find primers.

While you can use the rest as a propellant, The burn rate is pretty hard to control. All I can say is be careful.

[delmar]

Ah, I think that will give you a hole through your maple but no surface to work on. If you hole saw part way through how do you get the plug out? You want to make a relatively shallow basin in the board. If you have a drill motor punch a hole in a tennis ball, glue it to a dowel, and glue sandpaper to the tennis ball. Use this to make a basin. Start with a relatively coarse sandpaper and proceed through 300 or even 600 grit. You want it as smooth as possible with no other finish. Very fine sandpaper is available through Auto shops for Auto body work. Through 1500 grit.

You can probably come up with other ways to make a shallow basin. I prefer a lathe cause I have one and can do the whole job with just that as a major tool. I don't think I need a basin at all. I think working on a piece of paper on a plastic table is working just fine. The fact is I have made several dozen perhaps a hundred primers crushing the match heads with a claw hammer and had no trouble at all. I tend to believe I could get away with it indefinitely, but the "better safe than sorry" adage seems to apply here.

[delmar]

While you can use the rest as a propellant, The burn rate is pretty hard to control. All I can say is be careful.

Been there, done that! It was kind of fun, but not very practical if you can buy powder, since it takes so many match heads, that it is about twice as expensive as store bought smokeless.


Making match stick gunpowder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozsl4...eature=channel

[TAWILDCATT]

when I was young [in the 1930s] we did a lot of things like make primes from matches.and fire works were use to fire marbles out of pipe.here were many lost fingers.and eyes but then your smarter than thos kids.so you wont lose an eye or blow your fingers off.:coffee: [smilie=1::roll:

[armyrat1970]

Man I have to say, I have been a member of a number of shooting forums, kind of new to this one. Some for well over ten years. This has got to be the freaking longest running thread that I have read that really makes sense. Pros and cons given. Risk factors listed. So many different opinions and ideas. I have owned the TM 31-210 for many, many years feeling it may come in handy at some point in my life. That time may be coming now. I used to trash my spent primers but I will save everyone now and try my hand at reloading them.
Anachronism, thanks for starting this thread and delmar, thanks for your input from your experiments. This is one of the most educational threads I have read on any forum dealing with keeping us shooting in the wacky political world that we now find ourselves faced with.
Someone mentioned something about using spent primers as gas checks. I have thought about that also and I don't see why it can't be done. It does not seem we are going to get back to the days of, it's there when I need it and I'll get it next time. It's more like, if I can find it, I need to get it now. If I can make it, now is the time to practice how.
Me thinks I will make a little trip to WallyWorld today in search of roll caps. I already have some of the newer plastic ones for my grandkids. If I can find an Ace Hardware store open I may be in the market for a few boxes of matches.

[delmar]

Man I have to say, I have been a member of a number of shooting forums, kind of new to this one. Some for well over ten years. This has got to be the freaking longest running thread that I have read that really makes sense. Pros and cons given. Risk factors listed. So many different opinions and ideas. I have owned the TM 31-210 for many, many years feeling it may come in handy at some point in my life. That time may be coming now. I used to trash my spent primers but I will save everyone now and try my hand at reloading them.
Anachronism, thanks for starting this thread and delmar, thanks for your input from your experiments. This is one of the most educational threads I have read on any forum dealing with keeping us shooting in the wacky political world that we now find ourselves faced with.
Someone mentioned something about using spent primers as gas checks. I have thought about that also and I don't see why it can't be done. It does not seem we are going to get back to the days of, it's there when I need it and I'll get it next time. It's more like, if I can find it, I need to get it now. If I can make it, now is the time to practice how.
Me thinks I will make a little trip to WallyWorld today in search of roll caps. I already have some of the newer plastic ones for my grandkids. If I can find an Ace Hardware store open I may be in the market for a few boxes of matches.

Thanks for the kind words, and stay tuned! I am in the near future going to be remaking my youtube video with added info and a few safety tips. I was also given a great idea on speeding up the process that may be part of the next video. I have also met a gentleman who has purchased pressure testing equipment and is willing to test them for me to see how the pressure in a loaded round compares to factory primers.

[mac0083]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs9VI4ylEAY

a do-it-yourselfer made strike anywhere matches and gives details on which chemicals to use.
i'm certain that his mixture would ignite powder as good as any primer, but i dont wanna try it.
just thought it might help those of you here bypass the search for unavailable strike-anywhere matches.
This has been a great thread! enjoyed reading every bit of it. Thanks everybody for sharing their knowledge.

[delmar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs9VI4ylEAY

a do-it-yourselfer made strike anywhere matches and gives details on which chemicals to use.
i'm certain that his mixture would ignite powder as good as any primer, but i dont wanna try it.
just thought it might help those of you here bypass the search for unavailable strike-anywhere matches.
This has been a great thread! enjoyed reading every bit of it. Thanks everybody for sharing their knowledge.

I saw that video too, and I forwarded to a friend who claimed he cant find strike anywhere, but I don't think you could get a lot of powder from one of those strips.

[Linstrum]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the goal is to produce primers that work well! If you get off on the wrong track by looking for the chemicals to make your own strike anywhere matches in order to make your own primers, you may as well go ahead and just get the chemicals to make your own primers since they are more readily available than the chemicals to make strike anywhere matches! :veryconfu

The formula for strike anywhere matches I am familiar with (from the general chemistry textbook I used in college by Nebergal, Holtzclaw, and Schimdt) has the strike anywhere ignition tip made from phosphorus trisulfide, sulfur, potassium chlorate, glue, and a bit of ground glass for friction. The main body of the match head is sulfur and potassium chlorate with a little glue for binder. The strike pad on the match box has ground glass and vanadium-V oxide in it to enhance ignition, vanadium-V oxide is a catalytic agent that promotes rapid oxidation and was used at one time in self-cleaning ovens but discontinued since it was suspected of causing cancer. Back when my dad was a kid in the 1920s, the strike anywhere matches were made with potassium chlorate, sulfur, and white posphorus ("Willie Peter" to you guys who are GIs), but those were outlawed for a darned good reason since white phosphorus is every bit as poisonous as its chemical element family member arsenic, and back when my dad was a kid every year tens of thousands of children were killed or badly sickened by eating just one white phophorus strike anywhere match! Anyway, back to making primers, one of the easiest formulas to make and use that was also thoroughly battle-tested in both World Wars, is the Frankford Arsenal formula given in Hatcher's Notebook that is made from potassium chlorate, sulfure, antimony trisulfide, ground glass, and glue. Where phosphorus trisulfide is comparitively difficult to buy in small quantities, antimony trisulfide is not since it is commonly used in pottery glazes and is available by the pound for a few bucks. I bought a few pounds not long ago on eBay, for making pottery glaze, [smilie=1: of course!

If you want to pursue making strike anywhere matches, they are not at all hard to make if you can get the potassium chlorate and phosphorus trisulfide that are necessary for their proper ignition, and are a darned sight better than these stupid book matches that take two or three matches before you find one that will light! Personally, I now carry the Zippo lighter my late father carried for fifty years instead of matches. Of course it requires Ronsonal and striker flints and those are getting hard to find without having to go online.

Have fun! :bigsmyl2:


rl568

[labdwakin]

I actually played with this idea a little over a year ago because I was curious about the possibilities. The best results that I got from LP primer reuse was to very carefully shave the charge off of the paper backing on about 3 or 4 paper roll caps and then cut it into quarters. Then I put just a very few (4-6) granules of Hogdon Clays in the primer cup with the quartered roll cap charges and very carefully seated the anvil with a piece of very hard plastic. I had very good results from this recipe with no misfires out of about 50 rounds. Cheers all!:Fire:

[Lunk]

I'ma ask a silly question. Anyone ever think of using Tannerite? I imagine it needs a much harder shock than you can get from a firing pin but I figured I'd ask those with more knowledge than myself.

[Linstrum]

Hi, Lunk, not silly at all! Tannerite is interesting stuff since it is designed to be ignited by percussion, but like you already mentioned, it is a little too insensitive for a firing pin to do the job. It takes a high velocity rifle bullet fired into it to get it to go off. One use is for reactive targets in military and police training so long distance sniper shots can be verified without having to have a forward observer go look at the target. It is also used a lot in special charges for avalanche control and special effects in movies.

Good call!


rl585

[chris112]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7nphPRG6JA&feature=related

Those that are even thinking about trying this might want to watch this video. It's interesting if nothing else.
Seams like an awful lot of work to get a primer though.

[delmar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7nphPRG6JA&feature=related

Those that are even thinking about trying this might want to watch this video. It's interesting if nothing else.
Seams like an awful lot of work to get a primer though.Hi Chris
I'm the guy who made that video, and thanks for your interest! Yes it is pretty time consuming and defiantly not worth worth your time, if you can find primers. It was, however, a fun project to mess with during a time I couldn't find primers.

The rewarding thing for me, is that I have talked to people, who couldn't find full time employment, that have been able to continue shooting because of what they learned from my video.

[500bfrman]

Is that publication available without ending up on lists somewhere in DC?

you're already on it.

[Jim]

Just got finished reading the whole thread, start to finish. I have successfully recharged primers with the tips of S/A matches and the buttons of roll caps. The roll caps have a higher brisance than the match tips. I also found out that the violent flash of standard primers is not required to ignite a powder charge. I have fired loaded rounds charged with BP, Unique and Bullseye. When using Unique or B/E, I placed a tuft of compressed dacron over the charge to keep it against the flash hole. When using BP, I charged the case full to 100% case density.
The two calibers I tested with were .45 Colt in a Judge revolver and .45-70 in a Marlin 1895G and a Gibbs Summit.
With the S/A tips, I carefully cut the tip off with a utility knife and put the whole tip in the cup and compressed it, seated the anvil on it and then seated the primer. With the roll caps, I made a punch from a small piece of brass tubing slightly larger than the I.D. of the primer cup, cut the button out of the roll cap and then continued as described with the S/A tip process. All attempts were successful.
I have a 20 rd. box of .45 Colt ammo loaded with 230-RNs charged with B/E and a 20 rd. box of .45-70 loaded with 400-RNHBs charged with IMR 7383. The 7383 is spiked with a 2 grain kicker of B/E. Both of these boxes of ammo are primed with roll cap recharged primers. the last time I fired any of this was back in August of '09. The boxes are dated and I plan to fire one round of each in February of '10 which will be a 6 month lapse. If I can remember to do so, I plan to fire one rd. of each every 6 months to see what the shelf life might be. Kept in a cool, dry environment(like my basement shop), I expect they should last several years.

[Jim_Fleming]

But, Delmar, the VALUABLE thing is that your techniques are useful in a so called contingency situation... I'm going to make it a point to start buying Strike Anywhere matches... For "Hard Times."





The rewarding thing for me, is that I have talked to people, who couldn't find full time employment, that have been able to continue shooting because of what they learned from my video.

[delmar]

Just got finished reading the whole thread, start to finish. I have successfully recharged primers with the tips of S/A matches and the buttons of roll caps. The roll caps have a higher brisance than the match tips. I also found out that the violent flash of standard primers is not required to ignite a powder charge. I have fired loaded rounds charged with BP, Unique and Bullseye. When using Unique or B/E, I placed a tuft of compressed dacron over the charge to keep it against the flash hole. When using BP, I charged the case full to 100% case density.
The two calibers I tested with were .45 Colt in a Judge revolver and .45-70 in a Marlin 1895G and a Gibbs Summit.
With the S/A tips, I carefully cut the tip off with a utility knife and put the whole tip in the cup and compressed it, seated the anvil on it and then seated the primer. With the roll caps, I made a punch from a small piece of brass tubing slightly larger than the I.D. of the primer cup, cut the button out of the roll cap and then continued as described with the S/A tip process. All attempts were successful.
I have a 20 rd. box of .45 Colt ammo loaded with 230-RNs charged with B/E and a 20 rd. box of .45-70 loaded with 400-RNHBs charged with IMR 7383. The 7383 is spiked with a 2 grain kicker of B/E. Both of these boxes of ammo are primed with roll cap recharged primers. the last time I fired any of this was back in August of '09. The boxes are dated and I plan to fire one round of each in February of '10 which will be a 6 month lapse. If I can remember to do so, I plan to fire one rd. of each every 6 months to see what the shelf life might be. Kept in a cool, dry environment(like my basement shop), I expect they should last several years.
On the subject of shelf life, it is important to know that the stuff in strike anywhere matches has a real tendency to draw moisture. It is very humid in the summer time where I live. This summer I put together a batch of primers and set them on a shelf for to months then I tried a couple. The moisture had gotten to them and only one out of three fired. So I dumped the rest in a coffee filter and put them in a food dehydrator overnight. The next day 17 out of 17 were good as new! If I were going to load them in ammo to store I would box them up and put the box in a bag of rice and I'm pretty sure they would keep well.

I should also remind you that the "salts" in the mixture that draw moisture, are also what makes these very corrosive. If you use these primers you need to wash your gun with water, like they do black powder guns. If I go to the range with corrosive ammo I heat up the food dehydrator before I clean my pistol, wash the pistol in hot soapy water in the sink, then I throw it in the dehydrator.

[KCSO]

Now has anyone tried to buy GOOD strike anywhere matches lately? You just can't find them any more. When we couldn't find percussion caps in the 60's we use to use match head and they are really corrosive, but they do work.

[wills]

I think you can still find Blue Diamond strike anywhere matches at HEB.

[Jim_Fleming]

Please excuse my ignorance...

But what or where is HEB?



I think you can still find Blue Diamond strike anywhere matches at HEB.

[jcwit]

Please excuse my ignorance...

But what or where is HEB?



Ya like the rest of us know.

I have the utmost respect for our Military, and I am a Veteran, but they do it all the time, and I have no idea what they're referring to. My duty was Headquarters DASA, now how many know just what that means without using google.

To keep this on track, any of you folks here in No. Indiana can usually find the strike anywhere matches at the Amish stores in Elkhart or LaGrange counties. I would think this would true in other parts of the country where there are Amish populations.

[Jim]

I live in a little one horse town with a general merchandise type hardware store. They have the S/As on a regular basis and I pick up a box every time I go in. I think I have 'bout 10 or 12 by now. I keep 'em in a .50 cal. ammo can. My experience with the roll caps is that they produce more "pop" than the match tips.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Please excuse my ignorance...

But what or where is HEB?


HEB is a Texas grocery store chain.

G

[Lead Fred]

Primer shortage solution


http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab211/stallhorn/Lock.jpg

[Blacksmith]

Lead Fred

You got the right idea. For Christmas I got my son a Thompson Center stainless steel Fire Storm flintlock with removable breach plug.
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/mzModernFlint.php
It will take up to 150 grains of BP and shoots maxi balls and maxi hunters or round balls, cast of course. Primer shortage, powder shortage, or cartridge shortage it should put meat on the table.

Blacksmith

[Linstrum]

Hey, Lead Fred!


Hesh up!!! As soon as the word gets out that rocks can be used for priming, the gun grabbers will make rocks illegal, and then where will we be?

[Lead Fred]

Im darn sure the Californicators already have

[JKH]

as an aside, does anyone know if they still make the "tap-a-cap" unit that made percussion caps from pop can material and roll caps?

As a total worse case put meat on the table scenario rifle the flinty is king, black powder can be made at home, however my boys and I dont have a flinty but do have some nice percussion front stuffers, with home made percussion caps we would be well served for a long time.

Also, how corrosive is the compound roll caps are made of? How many primers can be "reloaded" per button from roll caps?

Thanks

Jeff

[delmar]

Now has anyone tried to buy GOOD strike anywhere matches lately? You just can't find them any more. When we couldn't find percussion caps in the 60's we use to use match head and they are really corrosive, but they do work.
I buy them at ACE Hardware.

[delmar]

as an aside, does anyone know if they still make the "tap-a-cap" unit that made percussion caps from pop can material and roll caps?

As a total worse case put meat on the table scenario rifle the flinty is king, black powder can be made at home, however my boys and I dont have a flinty but do have some nice percussion front stuffers, with home made percussion caps we would be well served for a long time.

Also, how corrosive is the compound roll caps are made of? How many primers can be "reloaded" per button from roll caps?

Thanks

Jeff
Midway USA carries them but the website says they are on backorder.
Date Expected In-Stock: 1/14/2010
I'm told however that they don't work as well with modern roll caps as they used to with the caps you could buy when the Tap O Cap was designed. I think the government made the caps "safer"! If you buy one and it doesn't work as well as you like there is a primer recipe in Ron Browns E book Homemade Guns and Homemade Ammunition! (http://fliiby.com/file/34127/3qv4b6zoo3.html) That you could fill them with.

[Jim]

.....Also, how corrosive is the compound roll caps are made of? How many primers can be "reloaded" per button from roll caps?

Thanks

Jeff

I have no idea how corrosive the compound in roll caps is. I get pretty O/C about cleaning my guns, so I'm not worried about that. As for how many primers can be reloaded from one roll cap button, I get one per button. When I punch out the center, the perimeter of the button goes in the trash. As cheap as they are, though, I can afford to get several boxes when I stop by Wally World.

[Linstrum]

First off before I continue about roll caps, antimony trisulfide powder is still available from pottery supply and some chemical supply companies as both a pottery glaze and fireworks ingredient, and I would highly recommend getting a pound or so before it gets yanked off the market like sulfur and saltpeter already have. Easy to make primers that work well NEED the antimony trisulfide to work right so get it while the getting is good. And it is cheap!

Roll caps used to use red phosphorus or phosphorus trisulfide, sulfur, and potassium chlorate mixture, which produces a very corrosive residue of both potassium chloride salt and the family of phosphoric acids including orthophosphoric acid used for flavoring Coca Cola and several other soft drinks.

I don't know what they use now, but I have several thousand rolls of the old formula toy caps I bought from K-Mart and Wal-Mart about ten years ago when I bought my Tap-O-Cap tool. Those caps work pretty darned good with the Tap-O-Cap aluminum can primers in my Remington 1858 cap and ball revolvers.

That particular formulation for toy pistol caps is related to what the Frankford Arsenal #2 priming compound is that the U.S. Military used for all .30-06 and .45 ACP ammo from World War One through Korea. The .30 carbine ammo used the old original Stain-Less non-corrosive primers from the get-go in World War 2. The Frankford Arsenal mixture ingredient % recipe is given in Gen. Julian S. Hatcher's book Hatcher's Notebook, and contains antimony trisulfide, sulfur, and potassium chlorate with a small amount of finely ground glass to increase sensitivity and hoof/hide glue as the binder. I have used it and it works just like it is supposed to. The roll cap and Frankford recipes are also very close to strike anywhere matches, that is why SA matches work well. They are all corrosive.


rl698

[Jim_Fleming]

Thank you, Sir.


HEB is a Texas grocery store chain.

G

[Bert2368]

I've probably mentioned this before here, but-

http://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Powder-Explosives-Tenny-Davis/dp/0913022004

Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives has a great deal of information you might be interested in. It was written as an introduction to the explosives arts for students during WWII when a great number of new students had to be brought up to speed on the technology in a hurry. It's a classic, and you don't need a degree in chemistry to access it.

http://skylighter.com/mall/chemicals.asp?Sort=A

Skylighter has what you will need.


http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

The BATFE "orange book"- Federal explosives laws and regulations. Because ignorance of the law is not a valid legal defense.


Be careful out there. There's not much more dangerous than friction and shock initiated priming compounds.

[preparehandbook]

I know this is an old thread, but I found it and read it, so others likely will.

I wanted to relate a very minor mishap I had while fiddling with shotgun primers some years ago.

I was reloading shotgun primers, using a blunted nail to tap out the firing pin dent, then using a matchstick to press in 3-6 strike anywhere matchtips into the cup (white part only) I then pressed the primer cup back into the pocket.

At some point I decided to expedite the process by crushing up more than one primer's worth of matchheads, I was smart enough to use a plastic paint scraper to cut the white tips off, and a wooden work surface, but I was stupid enough to accumulate about a teaspoon full of tips (maybe 30). I walked away to do something and WOOOSH they went off on their own making a pretty yellow fountain of flame and a scar on the table. Luckily all other combustibles were safely stored elswhere.

I had ignored the warning not to crush more than a few matchheads at once. I just didn't see why it was a risk, but it was.

I'm not trying to be a worry wart or a naysayer, just wanted to relate how my shortcut nearly caused a serious accident. I'm too old to mess with such things anymore, but wish all the luck to those who choose to make their own primers.

[delmar]

I know this is an old thread, but I found it and read it, so others likely will.

I wanted to relate a very minor mishap I had while fiddling with shotgun primers some years ago.

I was reloading shotgun primers, using a blunted nail to tap out the firing pin dent, then using a matchstick to press in 3-6 strike anywhere matchtips into the cup (white part only) I then pressed the primer cup back into the pocket.

At some point I decided to expedite the process by crushing up more than one primer's worth of matchheads, I was smart enough to use a plastic paint scraper to cut the white tips off, and a wooden work surface, but I was stupid enough to accumulate about a teaspoon full of tips (maybe 30). I walked away to do something and WOOOSH they went off on their own making a pretty yellow fountain of flame and a scar on the table. Luckily all other combustibles were safely stored elswhere.

I had ignored the warning not to crush more than a few matchheads at once. I just didn't see why it was a risk, but it was.

I'm not trying to be a worry wart or a naysayer, just wanted to relate how my shortcut nearly caused a serious accident. I'm too old to mess with such things anymore, but wish all the luck to those who choose to make their own primers.

Thanks for the input. Caution is a good thing!

[Linstrum]

What you had there was a workbench "hang fire"!

x :bigsmyl2: x



rl873

[preparehandbook]

What you had there was a workbench "hang fire"!

x :bigsmyl2: x



rl873

Too true.

I never looked at it that way, but sooo true. I've always been grateful my paw wasn't there when it went woosh, and that it didn't go POW.

[GaryS]

Thanks for opening up this old thread. I'm a noob a making boolits myself. Been there with the caps when I was a kid. Not going there again. Good luck to everybody and stay safe.

[delmar]

I just re read this whole thread. I had forgotten that this forum was the place where I got some of my best ideas and inspiration! castboolits.gunloads.com ROCKS!

[camaro1st]

midsouth shooters supply still has some
as an aside, does anyone know if they still make the "tap-a-cap" unit that made percussion caps from pop can material and roll caps?

As a total worse case put meat on the table scenario rifle the flinty is king, black powder can be made at home, however my boys and I dont have a flinty but do have some nice percussion front stuffers, with home made percussion caps we would be well served for a long time.

Also, how corrosive is the compound roll caps are made of? How many primers can be "reloaded" per button from roll caps?

Thanks

Jeff

[danr]

i just read the entire thread, and i know its an old thread, but i thought i would add my 2 cents to it anyways..

from my experience, i've discovered some things about match sticks and cap gun caps used as primers. in relation of connetic force needed to set them off while in a primer cup.

a small device with a swinging arm and measuring device was setup, so that i could raise the arm to a specific height, and releasing the arm would swing down hitting a primer contained in a makeshift case held in place by a piece of pipe.. i was able to work 2 different shells to hold both small and large pistol primers.. with this i was able to measure the amount of connetic force needed to set primers off, and compare them to factory primers.

my findings where that compared to factory:
cap gun caps, required MUCH less force to set them off. around 1/2 of the force. the brand of the caps used affected the results, the higher (* better ones, with more powder *) required much less force than the "poor less powder" caps. even the poor caps required about 1/2 of the force needed compared to factory.
with match heads (* white tips only from SA matches *) the force needed was about 1/4 of the force compared to factory primers. brand made no difference. it should also be noted that the amount of material added to the primers, did affect the force need greatly.. less material needed more force to set off.. where more match heads added need less force to set off. also breaking down the match heads down with water, then using a wet mixture then allowed to set, resulted in much less force needed to set them off.

this data i was able to obtain allowed me to see that there is an extreme risk of a case going off if it is bumped while not in a chamber. dropping them could cause them to go off.. where factory primers needed MUCH force to set them off, makes them far more safer to handle. dropping a loaded case with factory primers, no problem.. you can even throw it up into the air, have it hit square on a rock and it will likely not go off.. but if you use match sticks or cap gun caps, it could go off just dropping the things.

rifle primer cups needed more force to set off than pistol primers.. so if anything, you can make things a little safer by using rifle primer cups for pistol homemade primers.

next, i added a swing arm to the end of the primer testing unit.. this swing arm resisted swing back, and so when the primer was set off, the pressure from the primer pushed this arm outwards, so that i could measure the amount of force the primer had. with this i was able to compare factory primers to my homemade ones.

results:
cap gun caps (* 1 cap of poor quality *) was less than 1/4 as powerful as factory standard primer .. where as 2 caps resulted in less than 1/2.. adding more caps to the primer does increase pressure from the caps.. but not equal to 2x with 2x primers. i think this had to do with the cap powder, it can only produce so much pressure, adding more doesn't increase pressure uniformly. also i noticed that some primers made resulted in erratic results.. some would produce far less, where others where far more pressure.. but even the extreme ones where no where near factory primers.

match stick primer compound (* white tips only dry pressed into cups*) resulted in some pretty good results.. they where very close to factory primers, about 3/4 of factory.. but the results where very erratic. some did as low as 1/4 where others where right at 1:1 of factory. this has to do with the amount of white tip powder that was added.
match stick primer compound (* wet compound then allowed to dry *) resulted in much better results.. the results showed that the amount of pressure was more uniformed between each of the primers made, but less performance.. i used tap water, so i think contamination affected these results. the results where about 1/2 of what a factory primer was, but it was uniform between each of them.

each test was about 10 primers of each.. the factory primers that where tested where NOT magnum, and where CCI primers. some time when i get a chance, i'll test the different brands to see how they compare, but money is a limited factor and as is my time.

this device that i made did make it possible for me to measure and tune the homemade primers to perform the best that they could.. resulting in some very good homemade primers.. i've loaded and fired more than 50 of them made from match sticks, and never had a single miss fire or hang fire.. all fired off very well.

for anyone who is serious about finding an alternative to factory primers, i strongly suggest working in SMALL quantities, and be sure to make a test unit to test your home made primers.. how would you know just how well they do if your just test firing them in a chamber. doing so is like trying to walk a strait line in the dark or blind.. you need a way to measure your results and record them.. so that fine tuning can be done.

i'll try and get some pictures of my test unit when i get a chance.. its been a couple of years since i packed it away.. so i'll see about digging it out sometime for everyone.

thanks,
Dan

[delmar]

Great stuff Dan! Thanks for the update!

[danr]

ah, found this online someplace.. it looks allot like the one i made, except it doesn't have the swing arm to test force to set off the primer. but its close enough to give you guys an idea of the test unit i used.

http://www.castingstuff.com/Primer_tester1.JPG

[mikeym1a]

"Extreme" being the key...

I've had the 31-210 almost from the time it was released to the genera public.

None of what is in there is in any way "safe"... but it ALL works.

It's a much better and more practical SHTF reference than any "cookbook" you can buy at your local NinjaMart.
Pardon my ignorance, what is 31-210?

[Smoke4320]

TM 31-210 Improvised Munition Handbook.... Army manual

[victor3ranger]

danr or anyone else who wants to chim in.

When making the match head primer compound. How is it that you are actually making your wet compound?? Are you just cutting the tips off of 2 of the match heads then disolving them in water to make the slurry?

[oldred]

Ok this is VERY old and while it is interesting about using strike anywhere matches just try to find those rascals these days! Strike anywhere matches are harder to find than ready made primers and those that can be found are not the same as the ones from just a couple of years ago, the newer strike anywhere types (if you can even find them) have extremely small striking tips with only a tiny fraction of the amount of compound the old ones had. I have even read reviews on the ones sold on Amazon and most are so bad that some of them won't even light, good info it's just the right matches are simply no longer available.

[victor3ranger]

I was reading in the other thread about potassium perclorate but where do you find the stuff and how do you perpare it for use?

[perotter]

Potassium perchlorate isn't what you want for making primer compound. You want potassium chlorate. You can get it at any pyro store or make it from potassium chloride.

[SteveK]

Ok this is VERY old and while it is interesting about using strike anywhere matches just try to find those rascals these days! Strike anywhere matches are harder to find than ready made primers and those that can be found are not the same as the ones from just a couple of years ago, the newer strike anywhere types (if you can even find them) have extremely small striking tips with only a tiny fraction of the amount of compound the old ones had. I have even read reviews on the ones sold on Amazon and most are so bad that some of them won't even light, good info it's just the right matches are simply no longer available.

I'll offer confirmation that the new "strike anywhere" farmer matches aren't worth diddly. I bought some on amazon for my emergency kit and was sorely disappointed. It seems that even the humble match has fallen victim to economic hard times. they light poorly, if at all, and they break if you give them a hard look. All in all, they're probably better for tinder than for starting a fire.

[trapper9260]

I had read some on here for what is used for primers reloading and here is my input on it.I do it myself this way for small and shot gun primers I use the cap gun caps that are made in germany not china they are not that good for your money ,the ones made in germany is more uniform in how they are made and I also use FFFg super fine and FFFFg super fine BP . you can use one or the other and I have no problem with it like some stated make sure you clean your firearms after use.As for rifle primers you can use the same way of reload them the same way but you will have about a 2 to 3 sec delay. But when you use the old strick anywhere matches and cap from cap gun it is like shooting like the others.If anyone like to know details of how I do it , PM me I will let you know.Hope this helps .

[Jon]

There is still a shortage. I haven't seen much of anything since Christmas.

[danr]

There is still a shortage. I haven't seen much of anything since Christmas.

yep, 2013 and primers are still a pain to find. and when you do they are EXPENSIVE as hell. $7 and $8 per 100, and most places wont sell them by the case. i've seen some at the waco gun show here, but they wanted $90+ for junk primers and $130+ for good cci's.

i stocked up back in 2008 and so far i'm still doing ok on primers, lucky me. but for trigger time while not at the firing range, i shoot my glue stick rounds in the shop with the cap gun caps. however, you have to find the right ones. some caps are **** others are not bad, and have enough power in them to propel a 45 glue stick round hard enough to go through a tin can. next time your at the grocery store, stop by the kids toy's section and look for those old cap darts that come with a bunch of red plastic caps. these are the round plastic caps, but they are in a bread board in a square config. they come with about 50 or so caps for $3.

when using these plastic caps, i pull the anvil from a used small primer, and shove it into the plastic cap, then i hand seat the primer in a small primer pocket. works great. however, know this. THEY CAN GO OFF JUST CLOSING THE CHAMBER!

this is because the caps are designed to go off with little to no impact. unlike primers that are designed to go off with a specific amount of force. i wouldn't use them for actual ammo, that would be just dumb as hell and not to mention dangerous.

for those who want to be able to keep shooting even in a SHTF situation or during a dry spell of primers and you have none, MAY I SUGGEST GETTING A FLINT LOCK!

the flint lock is a much better solution because you can make your own black powder easily also black powder seems to be in good supply around here in texas and in the northwest.

to answer an older post about working with wet primer medium, YOU USE WATER! anything else can cause the chemical makeup to go to **** and not work.

cheers,
Dan

[perotter]

If you ready want to reload primer, you are best to make the primer compound. It is much easier to make good primer compound than to make black powder. While using match head or toy caps is entertaining, it isn't a good way to do it.

There is a sticky in the the "Special Projects' section of this forum that will give you plenty of information on making your own primer compound. It looks like most like to use the same compound that the US Army used for the 30/06.

[oldred]

I'll offer confirmation that the new "strike anywhere" farmer matches aren't worth diddly. I bought some on amazon for my emergency kit and was sorely disappointed. It seems that even the humble match has fallen victim to economic hard times. they light poorly, if at all, and they break if you give them a hard look. All in all, they're probably better for tinder than for starting a fire.


I found the other thread that mentioned matches quite interesting and I remembered all the cool things we did with matches when I was a kid (bicycle spoke "guns" were common!) so I decided to lay in a supply of the strike anywhere types. I quickly found I was about a year too late and it seems if any are to be found they will be quite old and likely just left over old stock. I tried every new strike anywhere match I could find but the problem is the amount, or rather lack of, the striking compound on the tips. Where the old matches had nearly 1/4 of the entire head made of the striking part, well maybe not quite 1/4 but a significant part anyway, the new ones have just a very tiny dab or just trace on the tip and some don't have any at all and won't even light! Basically the newer strike anywhere matches are about as useless as the strike-on-box type and the real McCoy or genuine old-stock strike anywhere types are bringing as much as $20 or more a box on places like E-Bay so I guess using them for primers or any of the things we did as kids is all just history now.

[dakotashooter2]

The new "strike anywhere" matches have such a thin layer of the striking compound it often chips off the head when struck rather than igniting.

Is it time to revisit electronic ignition in firearms?