Lube left in groove after shooting

[jforwel]

I shot some of my 429421 boolits out of my Ruger .44 Special yesterday and examined some recovered slugs. I am using Speed Green and found some grooves still had lube in them and some were fairly clean.

I was shooting some mild loads with 6.5 and 7.0gr of Unique and some with 16.0gr of 2400. The temperature was 37 degrees. Question: Is the lube staying in the groove because of the mild load or because of the low temp or both? I think that the boolits I found with no lube were probably from the load with 2400 and therefore much higher pressure. I am on the right track?

The gun hasn't been cleaned yet so I don't know what the bore looks like. I did get some good accuracy with some loads and not so good with another. Typical testing results.

[jonk]

MOST of my bullets, be it pistol or rifle, have lube in the grooves on examination, at least some. Yes, some gets wiped off in the bore when you fire it but most of it can't really go anywhere and stays in the grooves. I would GUESS- and am open to correction- that the centripetal forces acting on the bullet are what throws the lube off- so it depends on twist rate and velocity first and foremost.

[DLCTEX]

Higher pressure = higher RPM's. The lube is being slung out after leaving the barrel, no problem. If the bore is clean, no worry. If there is some leading it's probably due to boolit fit or loading procedure, as Speed Green is adequate for the application.

[Willbird]

I shot a whole bunch of 45 acp bollits into snow this winter, most of them still had their lube in the grooves when the snow melted in the spring.

[Shiloh]

I always thought thta was a good thing to have a little left over after leaving the barrel.
Means that you have sufficient lube and that it is doing its job

Shiloh

[44man]

My recovered boolts never have lube left. Store bought boolts have some lube here and there which means it never done the job and also threw the boolit out of balance in flight.
Lube should work in the barrel and any left should be spun away as soon as it leaves the muzzle. If a recovered boolit is full of lube evenly all around, accuracy might be OK but did the lube do anything other then fill the grooves?
Some cast boolits and weigh them, sort them to a tenth of a grain, then use a hard lube that is worse then 5 air pockets in a boolit. Chunks fly out while some stays in the grooves.
How more damaging to boolit flight be then to have some lube left on one side? Take a WW off your car once! :mrgreen:
Now one boolit clean of lube and the next with lube left is as bad. They must ALL be the same.

[John Boy]

I'm not much of a smokeless shooter, but the objective is to slide that bullet down the bore, no leading in the bore, maximum obturation of the bullet, leave a lube star on the muzzle and no lube on any part of the bullet upon impact.

So, it's obvious the smokeless powder lube has a melting point that exceeds the gas temperature of the smokeless reload and ... the bullet is not fully obturating in the grooves of the bore.

[Crass Whackwords]

Where are my hip boots ? Chest waders, maybe ? The BS is getting knee deep on this thread.

Jeez, what will it take to kill these old wive's tales ?

As several posters have noted, it is common for even soft lubes to be found remaining in the grooves on recovered bullets, especially bullets that are fired into a snow bank and rediscovered when the snow melts. Not so much bullets you find in a dirt berm, because dirt tends to rub off the lube.

The bullets with retained lube shoot just fine. So what's the problem ? I say there is no problem.

My favorite lubes DO NOT leave a lube star at the muzzle. They shoot fine. So what's the problem ? I say there is no problem.

You want the lube to be utilized in the barrel ? Well, where in the heck can it go ? If the bullet is a correct fit in the barrel, the lube is trapped, and it can't go anywhere. A few molecules of lube will be squeezed between the bullet and the barrel, filling in the imperfections. But most of the lube will probably be in the groove as the bullet reaches the muzzle.

You want the grooves to obturate ? How can they obturate, if the grooves are full of an incompressible fluid (bullet lube)? The grooves can only obturate to the extent that lube leaks out. Lube can only leak out to the extent that the bullet does not fit the barrel. Why would you not want your bullet to fit the barrel ?

A hard lube is "worse than 5 air pockets" ? Then why do I get superior results with hard lubes ? A better question is, why do so many benchrest shooters choose hard lubes? Why did a meticulous lube shoot-out published in Rifle/Handloader magazine about 20 years ago give top honors to one of the hardest lubes ?

To answer the original question, most of us do not have a reliable way to recover bullets in a way that preserves any residual lube. You would need to shoot into a snow bank, or perhaps shoot into water, or better yet, take high speed photographs of a cast bullet in flight.

Dirt berms are pretty hard on bullets, and will often rub off some or all of the lube, so absence of lube on a bullet dug out of the dirt doesn't prove much.

I suggest you evaluate lubes the same way you evaluate any other component -- by measuring accuracy, velocity, and standard deviation, and using statistical analysis to compare the results. That involves work and some shooting ability.

[runfiverun]

thank's crass.
i try to get my lubes as hard as i can when making my own.
i have shot "hard" lubes forever.
i don't have gummy crap in all my dies and all over my guns or cases either.
and i ,for the most part do get a lube star or ring at the bbl face. sometimes not, but no leading.
i also think the lube staying in the grooves helps the boolits flight, by not having another portion of the boolit available to cause air waves around the body of the boolit while in flight.

[jforwel]

Thanks for the replies, obviously many differing opinions.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with 44 man. We struggle to make perfect bullets that have no air pockets and have consistant weights so why would we want lube to stay in a bullet in an inconsistant way as the bullet flys to the target. If you have lube on your bullet you need to change lubes. Some lubes are better for different applications. Even some hard lubes work at rifle velocitys. I guess this to depends on what your looking for in accuacy. Are you the type that sorts your bullets and tosses the bad ones back or are you the type that shoots everything because you havent noticed "MUCH" differnce in accuaracy. Some here are very seasoned bullet casters that try to eliminate every variable that can mess with accuacy. Me, i fall in the middle where most shooters are. I dont use micrometer bullet seaters or weight cases or even seperate handgun brass most of the time by head stamps. But when you take a bigger cast bullet and shoot it and half the lube is still in it on one side of the bullet you know that has to effect accuracy. Maybe not at 25 yards but look at your group size at a 100. I feel to that when i have used hard lube and its all still in the bullet why did i even lube that bullet.

i dont care for lee tumble lube but it sure would lube better then that hard lube. Im sure that bench rest shooter that bragged on that hard lube was shooting a perfect bore and very hard lead. Im sure too hed have been better off with a bullet that had just a tiny lube grove or two and a little coat of lube by hand on the bullet.

Anohter thing that could have happened in that test showing that that hard lube was doing best was what was the temperature outsided It could have been in the arizona desert and been a 105 degrees out. Hard lubes will work fine if its hot enough and the gun is kept hot enough. For the most part any experience cast bullet shooter will tell you that on a given day something will work that shouldnt but for the most part hard lubes are inferior to softer ones and just not worth the headache of trying to make them work. have some lube here and there which means it never done the job and also threw the boolit out of balance in flight.

Lube should work in the barrel and any left should be spun away as soon as it leaves the muzzle. If a recovered boolit is full of lube evenly all around, accuracy might be OK but did the lube do anything other then fill the grooves?
Some cast boolits and weigh them, sort them to a tenth of a grain, then use a hard lube that is worse then 5 air pockets in a boolit. Chunks fly out while some stays in the grooves.
.

[/QUOTE]How more damaging to boolit flight be then to have some lube left on one side? Take a WW off your car once! :mrgreen:
Now one boolit clean of lube and the next with lube left is as bad. They must ALL be the same.[/QUOTE]

[44man]

Even a boolit with one lube groove will hold an average of 10 gr of lube. Many grooves in a boolit will hold even more weight of lube.
Lets say your boolit holds 20 gr of lube. You lose all the lube on one side because it broke out. Now your boolit has 10 gr too much on one side.
Every single one of you that weighs boolits would reject any boolit that is 1 gr different from the mold but accept a 10 gr difference when shot!!!!! And only on one side of a boolit to boot.
I stated that if you have lube left in the boolit and it is EVEN all around, it is OK. Not so if some is missing from one side only.
Case in point, a fellow sent me a box of boolits to test. They had a hard lube on them and during shipment half the lube fell out and was in the bottom of the box. How many of you would go ahead and load those boolits? [smilie=l: I thought so! Would you be dumb and take the hard lube out of the box and stuff it back in the grooves?
Hard lube can work better in a rifle but the same applies, either keep it even or have none left when shot. Either spin it all off or keep what is left even in the grooves. Make the hard lube sticky and results will be better. It should flow instead of break. Hard lube should stick to the boolit even when shot so it either stays or leaves. If some is gone but centrifugal force distibutes the balance evenly around the boolit, all is good.
I do not like a lube to break off at different points during flight either. If a chunk flings off at the muzzle and another leaves 20 yd's out, you are trying to shoot out of balance boolits, period.
Some guys love a clean loading situation, clean dies, clean hands and I have to ask that groups be posted, not just tell us that they shoot good.
After the brass itself, lube is as important for accuracy as anything else, maybe more so then the powder or primer.
Stop worrying about leading only or how clean your dies stay, that only means you are not getting the potential from your gun it is capable of.
What I do not understand is why is there ANY argument at all on the subject?
Remember those wheel balancing gadgets, a ring with mercury or something in it that was attached to the wheel so when the car came up to speed, the liquid in the ring spun to spots to bring the tire into balance? What would happen if you stuck plugs in the tube to keep the liquid on one side?
Stop sluffing off lube as not important and start shooting groups.

[waksupi]

10 gr. of lube per groove??!!!! I doubt it! Throw a decimal point in there somewhere!

[frank505]

Try the same load in warmer weather, I doubt you will find any lube in the lube grooves. Did a bunch of lube testing in a 44 mag, H & G 503, 21 grains of WC 820 (lot 47320), pretty much they all failed below 35 degrees (F) except for SPG. In the winter I wear my sixgun under a coat, which helps, but they still feel cold, I guess cause the two layers of wool are beneath the gun. I dont shoot much in the winter unless I have to, hurts my tender little hands.

[Willbird]

I'm not sure how soft a lube would have to be to fling out of the grooves on a 45 acp bullet at typically less than 1k fps. Many 45 acp have a 1/16 rifling twist. The bullet only makes 57 revolutions in 25 yards of flight.

Bill

[jforwel]

I agree Frank about cold weather shooting. I use gloves otherwise I tend to speed up the shooting session. However, getting the "cabin fever" of shooting I had to get out the other day and shoot my new Ruger 44 Special.

I did get good accuracy with some loads so I wouldn't call this a problem, just something I hadn't noticed before when digging boolits out of the berm. I'll shoot the same loads when the temps get up to the 60s and 70s and also chrono them.

I have a 41 magnum BH that will consistantly put ten shots in 1 1/2" at 25 yards but no other gun I have will do that. So good accuracy for my other guns is 2 to 2 1/2" for ten shots.

Someone mentioned hard lube falling out of the grooves in the box. I have had commercial bullets do that during shipping in the winter time when they sit in the UPS truck too long on a very cold day and get tossed around a bit too much.

[Willbird]

Another way I have found to get harder lube to fall out of the grooves is to allow the bullets to get colder than room temp, such as sitting on a concrete floor, they sweat then, and the lube does not adhere well.

[frank505]

jforwel,
I am humbled since you know what cold is up there on the hi-line. I tried to do my test in the same conditions, close to zero, and shot the same rock at close to 600 yards. Accuracy was the same until the gun leaded, warm the ammo in the jeep and could shoot a cylinder full and clean the gun. Next six would start to lead as the gun/ammo cooled which doesnt take very long with the Wyoming wind keeping the bugs away. I wear gloves also, it slows the cooling down a little, but my hands get cold quicker each winter. I did not try LAR45 lube, had no idea it was around, now that is all I use for smokeless powder. SPG is a mile down the road so I use that for black powder and some smokeless. Plus Steve and Cheryl are good friends.

[44man]

Waksupi, nope, I weighed a bare boolit and a lubed one, 10 gr difference, one lube groove. 324 gr and 334 gr. I also peeled out the lube and measured it and the clean boolit. It matches.
I went back and checked a few more and I still come out with 9.5 to 10 gr differences.
You DID make me scratch my head and wonder if I measured right.
This boolit is super accurate out of my Vaquero too.
Some booits only hold a few gr of lube so it depends. But you can see what would happen with my big lube boolit if I lost half and what it would be like with 2 lube grooves.
I did get carried away by making 20 gr an amount but figured it would illustrate the problem better. (Some boolits might just hold that amount.) Plus lube weight varies too.
The problem does exist and changes with boolit design will make it better or worse.
In my opinion, ANY amount if out of balance is bad, even 1 gr or less.
My big 508 gr 45-70 boolit with 4 grooves only holds 6 gr of lube.
Every boolit is different but might be why the TL RD boolits shoot so good. Tiny lube grooves with LLA snot on them. However my .44 SBH is holding a shade over 1" at 100 yd's with a TL, RD boolit lubed with Felix. Snot makes my guns lead.
Then Frank mentioned temperatures and the effect on lube. Very true. Hard lube can go to pot in the cold. Groups can go to pot and deer can be missed. That is why I depend on Felix lube and will not use any harder then Lar's Carnauba Red, a super lube but I don't know what extreme cold will do to it. It works where I live.
Your lube should work all year, not just in the summer heat. Why work loads in the heat and take them hunting in the winter?
Too many of you ignore lube viscosity under all conditions just like you want to shoot a 320 gr .44 boolit at 700 fps?????:mrgreen:
Lloyd really understands what I have been saying. :drinks:
First comes the brass, then the lube, then the boolit design for the rifling and velocity, then the boolit size, then the powder choice and amount, then the primer. These things can change position but ALL are important.

[Willbird]

If you just use Javalina, and out of a ransom rest put 5 shots in 1.25" at 50 yards, you just call it done and work on the shooter.

Bill

[44man]

I'm not sure how soft a lube would have to be to fling out of the grooves on a 45 acp bullet at typically less than 1k fps. Many 45 acp have a 1/16 rifling twist. The bullet only makes 57 revolutions in 25 yards of flight.

Bill
Your boolit is spinning at 45,000 rpms when it leaves the muzzle when shot at 1000 fps.
My 45-70 revolver boolit is spinning at 83,931.428 rpms when it leaves. Try to hang on to that with a hard lube!

[waksupi]

Waksupi, nope, I weighed a bare boolit and a lubed one, 10 gr difference, one lube groove. 324 gr and 334 gr. I also peeled out the lube and measured it and the clean boolit. It matches.
I went back and checked a few more and I still come out with 9.5 to 10 gr differences.
You DID make me scratch my head and wonder if I measured right.



I just weighed a .38 boolit, with and without. I came up with .7 gr. difference. So, there is 7/10ths of a grain of lube on this particular boolit. You have fat loob! [smilie=1:

[BABore]

Foty-Fo Man must be shootin some like these.


[smilie=1:

[44man]

:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Maven]

Crass Whackwords' post is very closely reasoned and should be made a sticky.

[Willbird]

Your boolit is spinning at 45,000 rpms when it leaves the muzzle when shot at 1000 fps.
My 45-70 revolver boolit is spinning at 83,931.428 rpms when it leaves. Try to hang on to that with a hard lube!


So your bullet makes 114 revolutions in the first 25 yards

[Shiloh]

I'm not sure how soft a lube would have to be to fling out of the grooves on a 45 acp bullet at typically less than 1k fps. Many 45 acp have a 1/16 rifling twist. The bullet only makes 57 revolutions in 25 yards of flight.

Bill

Do the math.

How fast does it take to turn the 57 times. Around 1/20th of a second maybe? Extrapolate that out to how many RPM's. It will fling out and you may find just a trace left.

Shiloh

[Willbird]

Do the math.

How fast does it take to turn the 57 times. Around 1/20th of a second maybe? Extrapolate that out to how many RPM's. It will fling out and you may find just a trace left.

Shiloh


Not in my testing fired into snow.

Bill

[44man]

If you just use Javalina, and out of a ransom rest put 5 shots in 1.25" at 50 yards, you just call it done and work on the shooter.

Bill
We can out shoot a Ransom rest just from bags. How about 5/8" down to 7/16" for 5 shots at 50 yd's with HARD kicking guns? When I shot IHMSA with younger eyes, my S&W 29 would hold 1/2" at 50 meters, open sights from Creedmore, no bags.
I have yet to read about decent groups from a Ransom rest even at 25 yd's.
Please post your 50 yd groups for us!

[Willbird]

We can out shoot a Ransom rest just from bags. How about 5/8" down to 7/16" for 5 shots at 50 yd's with HARD kicking guns? When I shot IHMSA with younger eyes, my S&W 29 would hold 1/2" at 50 meters, open sights from Creedmore, no bags.
I have yet to read about decent groups from a Ransom rest even at 25 yd's.
Please post your 50 yd groups for us!


The gunsmith that built my gun(1911) has them. Honest 1.25" at 50 yards, 5 shots. He also has some he shot with his own gun(38 super 1911) and ransom rest that are roughly the same size. The difference is mine were shot with bullets cast of linotype (Lyman 452460 + 4.0 of bullseye), his were shot with Sierras. The key to getting good groups with a ransom rest is a tight slide/frame fit. I have seen guys at the same club with their own ransom rest and model 41 smith's getting well under 1" at 50 with exotic target ammo. My dad's old K32 would do better than 2" with Alberts swaged wadcutters. All of those things are soft recoiling.

I know none of us mere mortals can be as good or smart as you 44man. Anybody who gets different results is a fool, or deluded, or lying.




Bill

[WildmanJack]

Hell, my old Giles 1911 in .45 ACP was guaranteed to hold 1 3/8 groups at 50 yds from a Ransom rest and if it wouldn't, John Giles wanted it back for work ( that was back in the 70's way before some of the new machining stuff they have now).. Way better than anyone I knew could shoot..
Jack

[Old Ironsights]

Well... it's obvious to me...

You have too many loob grooves. You need to sell some.

Waksupi could use the competition...

[geargnasher]

Anybody read what Glen Fryxell has to say about lubes? He has the most compelling theories I have come across on the subject. I say do whatever works for you, I judge my process based on two primary results: The condition of the target and the condition of my gun. If either is unsatisfactory I find out why and fix it, usually with help from the good folks here!

Gear

[44man]

The Ransom rest is not a cure all as far as I am concerned. I watched one being used too many times at the range. One fella could not get better then 2" at 50 yd's from his DW .45. Then he turned around and shot several 1/2" groups from Creedmore.
I handed the guy my revolver, he changed the pads and my revolver would not approach what it will do from bags.
Testing was done on many IHMSA guns and in every case the guy could shoot his gun better then the rest could.
I am not the only one that can out shoot the machine! Real heavy recoil plays hob with the thing. Some of the pads would not hold good. The owner said he even broke a knob trying to keep it tight.
Every gun test in a magazine done with a Ransom rest has been a joke. Groups at 25 yd's that would make me reject ever buying the gun.
I still see no Willbird groups! I have posted hundreds of my groups, most likely more then anyone ever has on this site. I will also start saving my friends groups, some shoot better then I do. We are not keyboard shooters! [smilie=1:

[Rodfac]

Interesting discussion. We all have personal, though limited evidence, to support our positions but rarely with the scientific rigor to back our conclusions. Those who shout their opinions the loudest, are not more apt to be correct.

For years, I've used NRA's, Cast Bullets by Co. E.H. Harrison as my bible. His results and recommendations regarding lubes are backed by hard tested evidence, not just conjecture. I've yet to find anything in that book which is 'wrong'. His data is there to examine, and his results are reproducible, and that my friends, is the real test.

In responding to a question regarding Sizing Lubricant Pressure, on pg. 110 of my 1979 copy, the following quote is instructive, "In md-range target loads for .38 Special or .45 ACP, accuracy is sometimes improved by incompletely filling, or filling only the bottom grease groove...when using Alox/beeswax lubricant." Applicable to rifle loads as well? Can't say but his discussion in the article on Bullet Lubricants seems to indicate that lube choice, so long as it was sufficient to prevent leading was a lessor factor than say, diameter of the bullet, alloy strength and integrity of the bullet mass itself.

My take from years of reading this tome is that Harrison after testing hundreds of lubes found that the basic 50-50 alox/beeswax was nigh on to impossible to beat.

So...if your results on target justify your expenditure of time and money...have at it...just don't denigrate others for their use of alternate methods and who just might have a better "mouse trap".

Willbird has said it in one sentence...most of use would be wise to spend less time arguing the merits of their loading methods and more on shooting technique. I'd really like to see anyone...who can hold 1/2" gps at 50 yds with any pistol, revolver with an 8" or less barrel length...Mr 44 man must have the eyes of an eagle!
Regards...Rodfac

Just an update...I weighed Lyman's 429215 GC and found a 0.7 gr difference with and without lube; and that's filling the lube groove as well as the upper part of the gas check shank portion as well...not much of a difference on a boolit that goes a nominal 220 gr before I put the gas check on.