38 S&W loads (not Spl)?

[Charlie Sometimes]

Got some Trail Boss powder and want to try it in my 38 S&W breaktop (orignal S&W, circa 1885), shooting a Lyman 358212 (145 gr. RN plIN base). Can't seem to find any loads for it on Hodgdon site. It was there before, I know, but now it's not.

I know some of you guys out there are probably using it. So, how much are you using, and behind what?

In the mean time, I am going to look through some of my older data and see if I can find the references of which I spoke.

[dubber123]

All I can find is data for 38 Short Colt, and 38 Long Colt. The Short goes to 1.7 grs w/135 gr boolit, the Long to 2.0 w/150 gr boolit. If I was to take a guess, then 1.8 or so, for the .38 S&W. If you are sure Hodgdon had it listed, a quick call to them should get a load for you.

[Bret4207]

Try those boolits unsized. My 38S+W Perfected model likes them at least .360 and .361 works better. If I ever get a mould throwing .362+ that might work better yet.

[Tom Herman]

Try those boolits unsized. My 38S+W Perfected model likes them at least .360 and .361 works better. If I ever get a mould throwing .362+ that might work better yet.

It drops a goofy looking .362" bullet. I was going to sell it off, then I read that the 38 S & W uses that diameter.
I guess I'm all set if I ever cast for that caliber.

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[EOD3]

The 38 S&W is supposed to have a .360 bore. Get some REAL cases, not trimmed special cases, they'll split in the larger chambers.

I load 2.2 grains of W231 under a Hornady 140 grain lead.

Keep the loads light, the top break pistols aren't nearly as rugged as the Webleys and Colts. IIRC, the 38 S&W is also known as the Colt New Service but I've been wrong before and will be again.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I have some old factory (not balloon heads) cases (120) that I have fired in that gun, and some new 38 S&W cases (300) that I have yet to load. The mold that I am using is a Lyman 358212- a 145 gr. RN PB that duplicates the factory profile. So, it should throw a boolit close to 358 diameter per the mold numbers. I will use some cerro-safe and make a short barrel cast to check bore diameter. If the bore is very oversized, I could Lee-ment my mold and up size the boolit some. I have fired a few 358 reloads, and a 358 seems to work okay in it, as it is just a gut buster and not a long range (40 yd) man stopper. I use the Lee FL carbide dies, too.

I have never slugged the bore, as there is some pitting (probably from it's early days and BP useage), but it seems to shoot very well, and is a very light concealed carry, and very handy.

[EOD3]

I bought a few hundred cases from Starline when I first got the revolver. Given the chamber pressure, or lack thereof, I only needed enough for one trip to the range. At 500-ish FPS it's deadly on balloons at 3 yards :D

[Charlie Sometimes]

Checked my cylinder throats and an old factory boolit-
The old factory boolit was pure lead at 0.358; the cylinder throats were all 0.360 (snug slip fit for the pulled boollit); the bore was smaller and would not allow the boolit to enter at the forcing cone without a lot of force. I didn't, as I saw no point considering it was the smaller dimension and less than what my mold throws. But it is not much smaller- it could be as small as 0.356. I could not seem to get the the cylinder off, so I could not measure the actual throat dimension. It shoots good just like it is, so I will leave it alone. :-D

I do shoot mine reguarly at 10 or 12 yards at 12 inch steel plates. :)

[Bret4207]

The 38 S&W is supposed to have a .360 bore. Get some REAL cases, not trimmed special cases, they'll split in the larger chambers.

I load 2.2 grains of W231 under a Hornady 140 grain lead.

Keep the loads light, the top break pistols aren't nearly as rugged as the Webleys and Colts. IIRC, the 38 S&W is also known as the Colt New Service but I've been wrong before and will be again.

38 Colt New Police.

[Andy_P]

Did you ever try Trail Boss in your 38 S&W? I'm thinking 1.5 grs would be a good amount for the 145 gr, with 1.2 grs for a 200 gr "police" load.



Got some Trail Boss powder and want to try it in my 38 S&W breaktop (orignal S&W, circa 1885), shooting a Lyman 358212 (145 gr. RN plIN base). Can't seem to find any loads for it on Hodgdon site. It was there before, I know, but now it's not.

I know some of you guys out there are probably using it. So, how much are you using, and behind what?

In the mean time, I am going to look through some of my older data and see if I can find the references of which I spoke.

[chevyiron420]

im working up a load for the 38SW as well. my gun needs a boolit .363 dia. i am useing the lee 358-158RF lapped out, sized and lubed with 50-50. im useing 2.3 gr of bullseye. my gun is a solid frame smith, and i think the load is too hot for a topbreak. i use special cases but i run a long expander die down deep in the case to kinda pre fire form then size it with mymakarov die.

[Andy_P]

im working up a load for the 38SW as well. my gun needs a boolit .363 dia. i am useing the lee 358-158RF lapped out, sized and lubed with 50-50. im useing 2.3 gr of bullseye. my gun is a solid frame smith, and i think the load is too hot for a topbreak. i use special cases but i run a long expander die down deep in the case to kinda pre fire form then size it with mymakarov die.

Mine is a topbreak and your load seems too hot for my gun. What MV is that giving you? I'm looking for about 650 fps with a 195 gr and probably about 750 fps with a 158 gr.

I think that 1.5 grs of Trail BOss is more like it, but want to work up from a lower starting load.

[EOD3]

Mine is a topbreak and your load seems too hot for my gun. What MV is that giving you? I'm looking for about 650 fps with a 195 gr and probably about 750 fps with a 158 gr.

I think that 1.5 grs of Trail BOss is more like it, but want to work up from a lower starting load.

Andy, I think you might be pushing a little to hard for a top-break. Using 158 grain lead, you should be topping out at around 675 fps (3.0g Unique, OAL 1.1-ish). Most top-break cylinders are fairly short so you may need to seat the 195g bullet pretty deep to clear the frame. Deeper seating means higher pressure, caution is less painful than remorse. [smilie=b:

[chevyiron420]

Mine is a topbreak and your load seems too hot for my gun. What MV is that giving you? I'm looking for about 650 fps with a 195 gr and probably about 750 fps with a 158 gr.

I think that 1.5 grs of Trail BOss is more like it, but want to work up from a lower starting load.

andy i havent tested my new load yet, so i cant give you velocity yet. But the velocitys your looking for are way to high for a topbreak. man you dont want to tear it up.

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

Can any one sell me 100 or 200 38 S&W bullets? I have about 50 cases.

I have nice old nickle H&R 38 break open, made some place between 1907 & 1909.

Please PM me if you can help me out.


Thanks,

broomhandle

[Andy_P]

Thanks guys - that's why I get second and third opinions.

It's an Enfield No2 Mk1 and I can seat out to 1.240".

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/0F40FFA50960AF7/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/ABC5B082138E48F/standard.jpg

There is no sense to this gross over sizing for most 38 S&W chambered revolvers.

http://www.fototime.com/9328A09C7BCC969/standard.jpg

I don't know about other die maker's 38 S&W dies. Recomended to me by 9.2x63AL was to use the Lee 380 Makarov die set, and he spoke the truth.

http://www.fototime.com/C395D3A150A9504/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1E675673BEE6C9D/standard.jpg

This is what happens when full length sizing in the Lee 38 S&W die (Starline brass) and then seating soft pure lead boolits.

http://www.fototime.com/3B773CE97D573A2/standard.jpg

These are the boolit's I use in my 3 revolvers chambered for the butt kicking 38 S&W :-) From Left Lyman 200gr RNPB 358430, Lyman 150gr 35863 WC, Group Buy Lee 100gr DEWC, Group Buy Lee 146gr RNPB. An original Colt New Police. Simply a 38 S&W with a FN boolit, and a 38 Special case for comparison purposes.

The 200 gr Lyman slug can be seated with only the base band inside the caseneck, and crimped into the bottom lube groove and chambered in the Victory model S&W. The Lyman 35863 is seated to and crimped into the bottom lube groove. This basically gives the same case capacity as the 38 Special with the same slug seated flush. As a result you can use 38 Special load data if it's to be fired in a S&W Victory model.

The loaded round with the WC had been originally sized with the Lee 38 S&W dies, before I'd gotten the Makarov dieset. You can see the 'wasp waist' caused by the oversizing vs the other 2 reloaded rounds. In my Iver Johnson breaktop, using 1.6grs of Red Dot gets that 146gr RN going a mind numbing 450 fps :-).

...............Buckshot

[chevyiron420]

hey buckshot, i bet you can see the boolit in flight at that speed! i bet you could get her a little faster than that? i realy wish i had a mold to cast those 146 grain round noses that you show there. it looks like it takes up less case than others.

[Andy_P]

Another outstanding contribution from Buckshot!

[HeavyMetal]

Yes the Lee die set I bought uses a 38 super sizing die!

Fortunately another member sold his webley and the buyer did not need his die set!

It turned out to be a Lyman set made in the 70's and, even though it's steel, it sizes my 38 S&W brass just right!

Between the Lee set and the Old Lyman I got a real nice working die set fo the 38 S&W.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Sorry for not replying to this thread since April- I accidently deleted it from my subscriptions and didn't notice! I found it while looking for other information.

Just talked to Hodgdon about Trail Boss loads for the 38 S&W. They don't have any because they could not come up with a load reliable enough to get the boolit out of the barrel every time. They only others shown on their web site are the only others they have tested.

Back to the drawing board?

I will check my Lee 38 S&W dies. Mine are newer and I don't think I have that issue with mine, or at least none that I have noticed.

[Andy_P]

....Just talked to Hodgdon about Trail Boss loads for the 38 S&W. They don't have any because they could not come up with a load reliable enough to get the boolit out of the barrel every time. They only others shown on their web site are the only others they have tested.


Hard to believe, especially since I shot 30 rounds of 38 S&W yesterday using Trail Boss. They all left the barrel and the SD was fair - about 50 fps. All were sized to 0.358" (anything larger won't chamber) even though the bore is 0.361".

127gr Lee RN - 1.075" OAL - 1.7gr Trail Boss - 480 fps
140gr RCBS WC - 0.960" OAL - 1.7gr Trail Boss (full)- 580 fps
195gr RCBS RN - 1.275" OAL - 1.7gr Trail Boss (full) - 480 fps

The powder's too slow for the 38 S&W - I much prefer Clays and with a bullet in the 150gr range. Interestingly, the same 1.7 gr with Clays gives 500 fps, 635 fps and 525 fps respectively. You could go higher with Clays, perhaps as high as 2.0 grs with the 127gr and probably 0.1 grs higher with the other two bullets as well.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Checked my dies today- Lee carbide 38 S&W, with the powder through sizer die.
They do not leave the ring at the bottom of the cases like Buckshot's do, and they are regulated to use 358 diameter boolits, too. These work well for my S&W breaktop, and the 145 gr. Lyman 358212 PB boolit I use.

ANDY P- What did you base your starting loads on? There are no pressure signs? No compression? I am considering using your information. 1.7 gr. of Trail Boss sounds reasonable.

[Andy_P]

ANDY P- What did you base your starting loads on? There are no pressure signs? No compression? I am considering using your information. 1.7 gr. of Trail Boss sounds reasonable.

Quite simple - there are published loads for Bullseye (which is faster than Trail Boss), so I used them, knowing that the resulting pressure would not be excessive. There were no pressure signs (which cannot be trusted conclusively anyways), i.e. easy extraction, primers not flattened. Like I said, Trail Boss is a bit too slow for the 38 S&W in the sense that you run out of space before the pressure maxes out - impossible to overload. There was no compression, but two of the loads were "full". I measured the distance from the powder to the case top and compared to the amount of bullet in the case to determine.

I found Clays to be a better powder and I suspect that there are others better as well.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Good reasoning. I've always wanted to get one of those load calculation programs like "Quick Load" (I think it was called that) that you saw mwntioned several years ago. I never got around to it.

I didn't want "hot rod" velocities anyway - I like those "tortoise" loads in some firearms!

I will try some later today.

I use Titegroup in most of my other pistol rounds- 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 45 ACP, & 45 Colt.
I have tried Trail Boss in the 38 Spl- shoots pretty good, and I liked the way it shot.
That's mostly why I thought it would be good in the 38 S&W- a full case (like BP), and low velocity for good fun & practice.

[13Echo]

My set of Lee dies for the .38 S&W, bought in January, came with the Makarov sizer. Works fine.

Jerry Liles

[zxcvbob]

I started another .38 S&W thread yesterday; didn't know about this one. Has anyone tried using a 9mm Luger sizing die w/ .38 Special shellholder? I want to load just a few pipsqueak loads for an old guy I go to church with, but also got interested enough that I'm also looking to buy a .38SW topbreak for myself (they're just so darn cute.) I found a few on the auction sites.

Going to cut some fired .38 Special cases back to about .780", then trim with a Lee trimmer. It that doesn't work so good, I'll buy some Starline cases.

Herco looks like a really good powder for this cartridge according to Quickload. Reasonably complete combustion in a 3.5" barrel, and the pressure curve is nice and gentle.

[EOD3]

I started another .38 S&W thread yesterday; didn't know about this one. Has anyone tried using a 9mm Luger sizing die w/ .38 Special shellholder? I want to load just a few pipsqueak loads for an old guy I go to church with, but also got interested enough that I'm also looking to buy a .38SW topbreak for myself (they're just so darn cute.) I found a few on the auction sites.

Going to cut some fired .38 Special cases back to about .780", then trim with a Lee trimmer. It that doesn't work so good, I'll buy some Starline cases.

Herco looks like a really good powder for this cartridge according to Quickload. Reasonably complete combustion in a 3.5" barrel, and the pressure curve is nice and gentle.

Buy the StarLine cases!

The 38 S&W has a larger chamber than the special. You can expect case splits and possible damage to the revolver. Just my .02, YMMV

[Charlie Sometimes]

Well, I didn't get around to loading the other day, but I did over the weekend- 50 rounds for testing, etc.

After the usual case preparation (even on new cases I do EVERYTHING to them as if they have been shot), I primed new Winchester cases with CCI 500 primers (1986 vintage!), then filled them with 1.7 gr. of Trail Boss (weighed each charge on a beam scale!), and put a Lyman 358212 (145 gr. RN, PB, lubed with homemade recipe, and sized to 0.358") on top, and seated it to an OAL of 1.146".

I LOVE THIS LOAD- THANKS ANDY P.!

[Charlie Sometimes]

In prepartion for testing this new load, I fired a few old WRA factory loads (that I have had around for a coons age) first, as a power reference. I don't have a chronograph, so that is my best reference. These recoil a little in my breaktop, and makes it a little difficult to recover point of aim in this little gun quickly, but shoots good for a defensive load.

Then I fired the Trail Boss load. Noticably less recoil, easily controlled, and right on point of aim! I dumped 3 rounds dead center on one of my 12 inch plates at 10 yards. I love it- just the kind of load that little gun needed.

It was tedious to load, but well worth the extra time. I didn't want any extra variation in the initial loads for testing so I weighed each charge. I'm not sure you could throw that light of a charge consistently either. I'm pretty fast with a beam scale, so I will probably load up a bunch more next weekend and put them in an ammo can for stock. Maybe you could dip a load more consistently? The smallest Lee dipper is too big (2.2 gr.)- it would have to be a homemade job.

This load is no where near those old factory loads in power and recoil. There may be a little more room for play, but I am satisified with the function and accuracy. I'm not changing a thing. Anything more would end up as a compressed charge, most likely.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why Hodgdon doesn't have this load combination listed. The only reason that I could imagine is that it is difficult to throw a consistent powder charge at this level on machinery and not get over or under charged easily, creating excessive pressure, or not enough causing a barrel blockage in the old guns that are out there. But they throw small loads in 22 LR all the time......

[Charlie Sometimes]

I started another .38 S&W thread yesterday; didn't know about this one. Has anyone tried using a 9mm Luger sizing die w/ .38 Special shellholder? I want to load just a few pipsqueak loads for an old guy I go to church with, but also got interested enough that I'm also looking to buy a .38SW topbreak for myself (they're just so darn cute.) I found a few on the auction sites.

Going to cut some fired .38 Special cases back to about .780", then trim with a Lee trimmer. It that doesn't work so good, I'll buy some Starline cases.

Herco looks like a really good powder for this cartridge according to Quickload. Reasonably complete combustion in a 3.5" barrel, and the pressure curve is nice and gentle.

Buy the proper cases. There is a world of difference in 38 S&W and 38 S&W Special! There was a guy from AZ on GB selling Win 38 S&W cases at very reasonable prices for just about any quanity you could imagine. Good stuff- I bought 300 a few months ago!

I have no issues with my Lee Carbide 3 die set.

[zxcvbob]

Fired .38 cases are .380" OD. I thought that might could go another .005 or so without splitting. But maybe not worth taking a chance loading for somebody else. I'll see if I can order some .38SW commercial ammo for him. It's pretty hard to find, but I order stuff from Grafs, Midsouth, Midway, and Sportsmansguide occasionally anyway, I might get lucky.

Would Berry's copper plated bullets be OK in a prewar gun, or would the unlubed copper be too abrasive in the soft steel barrel? I have half a box of their HBWC's leftover from before I started casting my own boolits. Whether I use cut-down .38 SPL brass or new .38SW brass, I'm gonna load them pretty wimpy.

I'm still looking for an old S&W .38 Hammerless Safety for myself now that I saw how cute they are, so the issues don't go away by buying a box of commercial ammo for him.

[EOD3]

IMO, jacketed or plated bullets should not be used. The gun was designed to fire lead bullets at a relatively low velocity. The copper coated bullets are hard on the barrel and they "might" not exit the bore reliably. :Fire:

[KCSO]

Buckshot
As to the lee dies oversizing, sometime in the recent past the factories have decided that 38 S and W are to be loaded with 357 bullets. I got in a peeing contest with Dooc Carlson about this and we measured 38 S and W's from the 1950's Remington lots and the 2004 lots and somewhere the whole thing shrunk up and now 38 S and W will all chamber in a 38 Special revolver and the bullets are 357 instead of the old 360. This is kinda not Lee's fault.

[lathesmith]

Since the throats on my S&W Victory model are .363, I want to try a .363 bullet, so I got one of the 200gr 363 GB slugs to try. I need to make a sizing die though, this size slug is too big to be used with the typical sizing dies used for 38 S&W. Time to crank up the lathe....
lathesmith

[zxcvbob]

As to the lee dies oversizing, sometime in the recent past the factories have decided that 38 S and W are to be loaded with 357 bullets. I got in a peeing contest with Dooc Carlson about this and we measured 38 S and W's from the 1950's Remington lots and the 2004 lots and somewhere the whole thing shrunk up and now 38 S and W will all chamber in a 38 Special revolver and the bullets are 357 instead of the old 360. This is kinda not Lee's fault.
That's interesting. So how does factory-loaded .38S&W not split when you shoot it?

[Charlie Sometimes]

I keep forgetting to say what my Lee size die is- says on the side 38 Auto.

I think "copper-washed" bullets are okay to shoot in most of these old guns. I have shot lots of the old stuff from WRA, etc. that were copper plated lead. I just finished an old box of WRA today- through my circa 1885 breaktop. The ammo has been in excellent condition, too. No misfires, etc. My bore is pitted and rough, and leading doesn't seem to be a problem as long as you use a good lube on the boolits. Just don't overload the cartridge.

The 38 SPL (357 mag, too) is smaller diameter case, and the base is unforgiving, so it will split forward of that point under pressure. Look at the pic's Buckshot posted and you will see the opposite difference. Lots of stretching if it didn't split, and your cases wouldn't last no time. Get the right cases, especially if it is for someone else!

Love your handle and avatar, zxcvbob!

[Andy_P]

I use the Lee 9mm Makarov dies. There's a lot of info here on loading the 38 S&W on other threads, some going back quite a long time. See what "Buckshot" and "Bret4207" have to say - it's worth it/

[Bret4207]

In prepartion for testing this new load, I fired a few old WRA factory loads (that I have had around for a coons age) first, as a power reference. I don't have a chronograph, so that is my best reference. These recoil a little in my breaktop, and makes it a little difficult to recover point of aim in this little gun quickly, but shoots good for a defensive load.

Then I fired the Trail Boss load. Noticably less recoil, easily controlled, and right on point of aim! I dumped 3 rounds dead center on one of my 12 inch plates at 10 yards. I love it- just the kind of load that little gun needed.



I'm amazed you got any accuracy with a .358 boolit. My S+W Perfected demands at least a .361 boolit and likes them fatter if I can get them.

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

I have very early H&R hammerless - (1907 -1909)- as near as I can come to dateing it.
Can you guys post a list of light loads that I can SAFELY use in it.

I made a few loads with 1.8 of Bullseye with some 145 gr bullets. I have some 100 grain lead bullets & went to 2.2 of Bullseye.

Is that type of loading seem too heavy for such a old gun?

Thanks for any help,
broomhandle

[zxcvbob]

I've ordered some Starline .38SW cases from Cabela's (also some .380 ammo.) Should be here in a couple months -- both items were backordered. Decent prices tho'.

[Bret4207]

Hi Guys,

I have very early H&R hammerless - (1907 -1909)- as near as I can come to dateing it.
Can you guys post a list of light loads that I can SAFELY use in it.

I made a few loads with 1.8 of Bullseye with some 145 gr bullets. I have some 100 grain lead bullets & went to 2.2 of Bullseye.

Is that type of loading seem too heavy for such a old gun?

Thanks for any help,
broomhandle

Hit the powder/bullet makers websites. They should have up to date info for the 38 S+W with todays powders. There was a resurgence of interest in 38S+W a few years back when the Cowboy action game got going and there is actually more info today than 20 years ago.

Both your loads seem sane, but check to make sure.

[zxcvbob]

I'm still waiting for my Starline brass to get here, so I've cut down some .38 Special cases to experiment with reloading (I'll be shooting these in a S&W model 15.) Gonna try using 9x19mm dies. I tore the ends off the .38 Special cases with a pair of end nippers, then trimmed to length with a Lee case trimmer chucked in a cordless drill. Worked like a champ, except I tore a couple of 'em too short to trim.