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View Full Version : 1st try at patching and some questions.



rayg
04-02-2009, 08:22 AM
I'm going to try it in my .303 Enfield using the 314299 bullet. The groove dia. mikes out to about .314. but I have some questions.

The smallest bullet sizer I have is .312 so I sized the bullet to .312 and put two wraps of printers paper around it. Ran the patched bullet through a .314-5 sizing die which sized the bullet to .315 with out to much effort.

I used a cigarette roller and printer paper to try wraping some bullets and I think I got that down pat.

Now how high/far on the nose should I position the patch? The nose of my 314299 bullet as cast mikes out to about .303-4 which is a little larger then the actual bore dia of my rifle which means it gives a decent bore ride when shot.
I read where some folks position the patch onto the nose until the dia drops down below the bore dia.
If I position the patch on the nose with the two added wraps of paper, won't that make the nose way over size which may not fit in the chamber and/or tear the paper as it goes in the smaller bore which could cause the patch to sheer off in the bore?

Also can someone give me some basic loads to try out with the patched bullet using some of these powders I have, I-4227, I-3031, I-4198, Unique, 2400, and I-4897. Ray

docone31
04-02-2009, 08:38 AM
My Enfield is pretty flexible in terms of how high I put my patch.
I would go with the 3031. I would start at starting load data for the weight of the casting.
Do not crimp. Just tweak the neck tight.
Another trick I use,
I take a factory load, adjust my die to just fit on it. That is the setting I use for seating my patches on the case.
The worst groups I got aside from being too small in diameter were from light charges. You can tell from the carbon blow back on the case neck. With mine, I get a black neck if too light.
You might find, the .303 might need some bedding with paper. If it is like mine, immediately the groups shrunk from factory grouping. Doing the three point forestock bedding will make a significant difference. As my barrel heated up, the groups got wilder and wilder. It does get hot with lots of bullets going down the barrel. Mine acted like a piece of spaghetti.
I used auto wax for mold release, JB Weld for bedding around the mag well, barrel band, and nosecap. The nosecap takes 7lbs downward pressure. With mine, it was a business card under the barrel. I crazy glued a small piece of card under the barrel muzzle, drilled a coupla holes, spread JB Weld under the barrel. I centered the muzzle in the nose cap.
Now with paper, it is POA. Hot, or cold.
Next will be the trigger although I do like the two stage pull.

rayg
04-02-2009, 10:48 AM
1st question, You give the starting jacketed powder loads for your patched bullets as you mentioned you need to use a strong enough load. Is that for accuracy or only because of the case blackness caused because the case is not expanding enough to seal?

2nd question, Have you or anyone shot low velocity loads with the patched bullets like 10 grs of Unique or 16 grs of 2400 powders?

Just wondering how they worked. If they work well I can see an advantage to using them in light loads also as it might help prevent leading, conserve on powder and also eliminate the cost of a gas check and maybe it would give a better groove seal then the plain lead bullet. Not sure about the seal though maybe at that low velocity a lead bullet would seal better.

I finally got a half way good combo of powder and load of 10 grs of Unique and wondered how a patched bullet would work with that load. Here's my last group with that load after many disapointed trys with other loads. It still could be improved.

My Enfield is and original BSA "T" sniper so the bedding point of the action and stock would have been done by Holland & Holland already. Ray

pdawg_shooter
04-02-2009, 11:33 AM
No need for checks if you patch. But then no need of checks for light loads either. Cast them, lube them and load them for light loads. The advantage of paper is using full power loads with cast. The paper protects the bullet way better than any check can.

rayg
04-02-2009, 12:12 PM
I've have read mixed results, some good and some bad, with cast bullets shot without the checks applied at the low velocity loads. I haven't tried it myself yet but probably should try it.
I looked in the Lyman manual I have for a load for a 200 gr jacketed bullet to match the 314299 weight and didn't see I-3031 powder listed for that weight a bullet. Can anyone tell what a basic starting load would be for the 303 Brit. with that weight patched cast bullet? Ray

pdawg_shooter
04-02-2009, 01:08 PM
Find a load listed for jacketed of that weight, use the same starting load and work up. Correctly alloyed and patched, your lead bullets will equal and sometimes exceed the performance of jacketed. That is one of the great things about paper patching.

rayg
04-02-2009, 02:15 PM
The biggest bullet listed in my Lyman #48 book is only 180 grs and it lists no 3031 powder load. It does list a starting load for 4895 load of 36.5 grs. for that bullet. I would imagine for a 200 gr bullet you might load a little less, Ray

docone31
04-02-2009, 02:49 PM
IMR lists the start data at 38.3gns.
I am up to 40.4gns for 4895. Under that and it does not perform.
I have fired them checked, my first ones actually, and found them to be a waste of checks. Also, sizing them to .308 to start really feathers the check.
I use the starting load to keep the seal of the neck, and it targets better. With the slightly under loads, my groups opened up.

rayg
04-02-2009, 03:43 PM
Well I found out I won't need a .308 bullet sizer after all because when I removed some patches from a couple of the bullets I had patched and sized in the 314 die, I found that the cast bullet's dia itself had been reduced to .308.

Also I found my wifes hair dryer dries the wet patches in seconds. Ray

docone31
04-02-2009, 04:13 PM
Ray, I believe, slow drying makes for a more stable patch. Just my .02.
It sounds like you are makeing soft castings. I even mix zinc in with mine. Those suckers are HARD.
It will be interesting the results.
So, you have a T model. Way cool. I bet however, they did not bed the barrel. The groove size indicates it. You should be around .310. The heavies had the barrel band machined into the barrel. Interesting looking rifle.
Did yours come with the wooden cheekpiece? My Ligthgow did. It definately was not an add on, it had armourers marks and Brass screws. It had been neglected since about 1950. The wood had mold. Easy Off took care of it, and it cleaned up real well. Mine is also heavy, but, where the barrel band is, it deflects with heat.
The bedding is simple, and very effective.

rayg
04-02-2009, 04:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the rifle has been bedded as it is or was, a mint and all original BSA, with H&H conversion to sniper that actually was unfired, except for proofing of course, until I shot it. It has all the proper markings as well as the "Enfield arsenal" final inspection marks on the back of the receiver which indicates the H&H conversion passed inspection. It has a 5 groove barrel which was hard to mike as the grooves don't line up in order to get an accurate reading. The scope is a replacement however but it has the scope case with the scope number and wooden chest with the rife;s number. I also have an original Enfield Trials "T" that is still in original Trials configeration except for conversion to sniper by Enfield. That has a replaced scope also. Ray

docone31
04-02-2009, 05:52 PM
Wow!
Those are treasures indeed!
When I got mine, it was a piece of neglected junk. Now, it has the prime spot in my stable.
They just plain feel good in the hands.
Did your nosecap come with bayonette lugs?
Mine came flush with the serial numbers on the front space.
They are a well designed rifle.

rayg
04-03-2009, 11:01 AM
My two snipers are the No.4 pattern which aren't made with bayonet lugs on the front sight protector like your No. 1 MKIII Ligthgow. Is yours a sniper rifle as generally those are the only rifles that have the wooden cheek piece?

Forgot to mention, my bullets are not that soft as they test out to about 20-22 hardness, Ray

docone31
04-03-2009, 05:22 PM
My Lithgow, also does not have bayonette lugs. I know it is not after market as it has the serial numbers, and it was in lousey storage for over 30yrs.
It is a wooden cheekpiece. I am a lefty, so I turned it around.
You know, it works pretty well. Better than a custom stock!
Apparently, mine was made with the heavy barrel. Sloppy bore, but heavy barrel.
I will tell you what, in .303 British, it is a joy to shoot! Amazing engineering. They kept the wood, and hollowed out for the barrel. No bedding though! The muzzle is turned down to go through the nosecap. Standard 11* muzzle grind. No square cut.
She is my favourite.
A load with paper, might just as well have a laser. Dead on!

Kurachan
04-03-2009, 11:10 PM
It is interesting for a No1 Mk III not to have the bayonet lugs, the serial number is usually stamped on the front round one, so that enemies of the British Empire can read them when looking down the barrel… The Lithgow heavy barrel is an adaptation of the 30” Long Lee Enfield barrel (same profile) shortened to 24 and whatever inches and turned down to take the front sight. The back sight bed is reamed for the heavier profile. These barrels were fitted at the factory, and by Army and civilian armourers as well. There is usually (but not always) a “H” is stamped on the flat of the Knox form and sometimes on the shank of the stock near the receiver. And yes, that is a new, in the grease, Lithgow heavy…

docone31
04-03-2009, 11:24 PM
That one is a beauty! Mine was really gnarly when I got it. Cleaned up real well though.
Great rifleing view.
My numbers are in the lug position, but, no lug. No lug on the bottom either. My muzzle has the same step down. I also have a cut out where the barrel hold down is in the middle. The band seems to be welded together on the barrel. It won't go past the milling in either direction.
Back when I was a youngun, my father got one from someone he knew. All he did was talk about how miserable these rifles are, and how much recoil they had, and how inaccurate they were.
I spent my shooting days when I grew with Mausers, Remingtons, Winchesters. I only within the last few years acquired an Enfield.
They are one of the sweetest, good handling, comfortable, rifles I have owned! I got my wife an Ishapore. She loves it. It is her favourite even above her G63 Swede in 7.62. She is more comfortable with her Ishy than anything I have built for her.
If I had a second barrel, I had considered makeing a .303 Epps. Since I fire paper patched loads, I get really good case life. Maybe an Epps is not neccessary.
I do love that rifle.
Yours is sure sweet also.
They have a feel that is hard to describe. I cannot understand why people sporterize them.

Crash_Corrigan
04-11-2009, 05:30 AM
I have a vintage 1945 Longbranch SMLE no4 MK1 that was mildly bubbicized. They removed the handguard and some of the stock and did a pretty decent job on it. Then they mounted a crappy 4x scope offa a .22 and mounted it on the left side and drilled a couple of holes in the receiver. Heresy!

I trashed the scope and mount and I an now playing with PP. My intention is to size my WCWW boolits to .308 and then two wraps of computer paper and size again down to .314. The chamber ahead of the end of boolit slugs to .316 but the bore further along is .303 with gooves at .311. It is a two groove barrel in excellent condition and I am looking forward to my next trip to the range.

rayg
04-25-2009, 04:33 PM
Well I just shot a few PP bullets I made up in my Enfield and not a single one hit even the backboard at 50yrds. Just tried two using a 314299 bullet sized to .314 w/ 36 grs 3031 and two with 311413 bullet sized to .314 w/ 35grs 3031.
My buddy was watching the last shot and he said it went way way off to the left.
Back to the drawing board I guess and I guess I better move the target closer so I can at least see where the bullets are going, Ray

docone31
04-25-2009, 08:50 PM
Ray, I would move the target further away. It makes it easier to see how far off they are.
Our range is an hour and half away from us. It is so disappointing for me when I get 20minutes of berm, but, that is how we dial it in.
My Enfield is putting one on top of another at 100yds.
Here is what I do.
I size my prime casting to .308. I cannot get it to target otherwise. Don't ask me why, I have no clue and others say it is not neccessary.
I wrap twice, 1 3/16" wraps with 45* angles X 1" wide.
I use soaking patches straight from the dip water in a cigarette roller. This really clamps the patch down on the casting.
I twist the tail, let sit overnight, or more. It depends on how I feel. The A/C keeps the patch dry.
When I size, I use a little Auto Wax, or JPW. It depends on what I feel like useing. I wipe the small amount on the patch, useing very little. I smear it down with the sizing die. .304. The die actually wipes most of it off. It just looks shiney when it is sized.
I use the Lee Collet Die set, modified for .314. I sent in a sized patched boolitt, and case, fired but unsized.
I think, the first sizing makes small edges on each land going to the base. I think the paper, when sized locks into those small "feathers". That gives it enough "grip" to make the transition from case to rifleing. From there the compression of the bore locks it on.
Your load is a little light also. I might go 39gns of 3031, rather than 36. Start load data is 38gns. You will not have pressure issues with paper and that load.
I also do not crimp the neck. I use the Lee FCD to just where it closes the neck down and does not crimp it.
Your alloy does sound hard enough. Mine has some zinc in it.
I fire into a berm that is sugar sand. I have yet to find a fired casting. Mine go deep. I keep looking, but no luck. I also wax my bore after cleaning. I do not know if it helps, but it has not seemed to hurt.
I also use the Lee C185 .303 mold. Both my .30s, and my .303 really favour the Lee molds in those calibers. I run 180gns.
Keep plugging at it. It will take time. When you find your sweet spot, you will definately find it all worth while.
Hang in there. I went throught the same thing. I found my sizing by gosh, and by golly.

1874Sharps
04-27-2009, 06:59 AM
Ray,

The reason for the wild flyers may be that the patch is not coming off the bullet cleanly upon exit from the muzzle. If the paper sticks a bit it will cause flyers just as you describe. Note that Docone31 uses bullets that have lube on them before they are patched. Dr. Brent Danielson discusses this also (see the thread in the PP section on Danielson's link).

docone31
04-27-2009, 07:54 AM
I use dish soap for sizing lube, then I wash it off to wrap.
I use enough wax on the patch to go through the sizing die, and that is it. I do not lube after that.

rayg
04-28-2009, 09:31 AM
I'll try that for the next loads. It may be that the paper wasn't coming off. Didn't pay attention to that, Ray

docone31
04-28-2009, 09:41 AM
Another thing to look for.
With my .303, and .308, if I have too little powder, I get black down the neck. When I have the best amount, there is no black on the fired case.
I have found, paper patching, they like it long also. My shorter casting simply did not work well with paper.
I have found, with paper, they are extremely forgiving. I have fired cases with the patched load down in the case, somewhat loose, and a ragged patch. They still fired very well.
I mostly run my patches dry. I found, with too much wax on the patches prior to sizing, they did not do as well as dry patches.
The more you do, the more of a feel you will get for it.
Keep at it.

303Guy
05-21-2009, 04:05 AM
My Lithgow, also does not have bayonette lugs.There's a reason for that - Aussie law! But another thing, Lithgow never made No4's? Just curious!