.45 acp leading badly, please help!

[geargnasher]

First I would like to say thanks to all of you on this site for the great info, I have found and put to use many tips and solutions found here.

The current issue is with a Lyman 452374 better known as the Devastator Hollow Point made for the .45 ACP. This is the second pistol I have ever cast for (the others being rifles and .45 Colt) and when I finally got the mold to work ("Leeized" the heck out of it!) and cast some great looking boolits they end up leading badly. Here's the stats:

Kimber tac pro II w/4" bbl
Springfield 1911A1 bone stock
Mixed cases
Above boolits
5.0-6.3 grains Universal (leading happens regardless of charge)
CCI 300
Lubed with Lee liquid alox before and after sizing in lee .452" sizing die
Bore on Kimber slugged at .4513"
Bore on SA slugged at .4511"
Boolits range from 12.5 to 14bhn with Lee tester depending on batch, cast from ww+5% stained glass 60 solder, air quenched.

I have good luck with liquid Alox on .45 Colt with medium CA pressure loads,
I have read all about other lubes, use alox sticks on Lyman sizer for rifles with no problems but the liquid stuff with these boolits just leads the holy bejezzuss out both of my guns after just 20-30 rounds! What have I missed? :confused: The bores seem to be fine, neither is terribly worn or fouled with copper (I do CLEAN them), do I just need to buy punches/bases and size with hard lube? Maybe try Felix pan lube? I'm trying to save time and money with liquid Alox, I shoot my .45s more than anything else and really love the way these HPs expand with ww-based alloy, love the way they feed in my guns, love everything about them except the number of Chore Boy's I go through after shooting them. Glen Fryxell's articles inspired me and this is a perfect bullet for hunting or defense, can anyone help with the lead?[smilie=b:
Gear

[Recluse]

My first question would be how are you using the LLA and how exactly are you lubing your boolits.

My second question would be since you've slugged your barrels, have you put the mic/calipers to your cast boolits? I didn't see what the boolits were casting at, nor what they measured after running through the Lee sizer. That information would help clear up the picture as well.

For what it's worth, my number two favorite mould and boolit is a Lee .452 200SWC and no matter what I do in terms of lube, charges, sizing, alloy mix, temps, quenching methods, etc, I always get a little amount of leading in all the .45's I shoot with it (Series 70 Gold Cup, Series 70 Gov't, Longslide, Sig P220). The leading is very minor at best and I've just learned to live with it. I can't see any detrimental effect on my accuracy.

I can switch to the Lee .452 TL230RN, which I tumble-lube with a mix of LLA/JPW/MS, size, then lube again and get zero leading with still very good accuracy. Likewise, I have an RCBS .452 mould that also does me very well, except that no matter what I change or modify (alloy, quenching, temps, lubes, etc), I can't get the same consistent accuracy I do with the Lee 200SWC--but I don't get any leading.

Go figure. They call casting the Black Art and I'll buy it. There are some things that just aren't meant to be explained. Explored, yes, but explained, no.

:coffee:

[44man]

Lee snot works best under your fenders! [smilie=1:

[geargnasher]

Thanks for the reply, Recluse! I have mic'd the boolits, they come out around .4519" after sizing, cast around .453" after polishing mould but still round to about .0004". Am I work softening them? My .45 Cold likes the 454190 250 grainers and rarely leads at all and they cast .454" and size in same sizer. I lube them in a gal freezer bag with about 1 tsp per 200 boolits liquid Alox which has been warmed in microwave first. Set them base-down on waxed paper overnight, then size, lube same way again, load, clean tips with paint thinner/rag to avoid fouling chamber/mag/feed ramp.

Recovered boolits have some lube left in groove, bases are mostly still covered in lube.

I'm pretty new to this casting art and the only things I can say with any confidence are that this is great fun and that, as a trained engineer and automotive tech, I can indeed agree that this is a Black Art sometimes!!

[Recluse]

I have mic'd the boolits, they come out around .4519" after sizing, cast around .453" after polishing mould

Looks like you're sizing them to just about the same diameter of your bore--something that will almost always cause leading (at least, in my wonderful karma-filled world it always will).

Try shooting some as cast. Lube 'em with the LLA--do two light coats but don't size them in between coats--load them up and then fire away. See what happens. I'll bet you'll get better and more proper obturation shooting them as .453.

:coffee:

[randyrat]

Are you "crimping" too much with a roll crimp and squeezing your boolit(cast) down in the loading proccess? If you do your going to have problems. Smooth the bell out, not much more. Also, as stated, .4519? is it a costom sizer die? Most are .451 or preferably .452

[shotman]

DONT size after you lube. You need some Lee tl on the lands. Also try moly in the lube.

[Bret4207]

Looks like you're sizing them to just about the same diameter of your bore--something that will almost always cause leading (at least, in my wonderful karma-filled world it always will).

Try shooting some as cast. Lube 'em with the LLA--do two light coats but don't size them in between coats--load them up and then fire away. See what happens. I'll bet you'll get better and more proper obturation shooting them as .453.

:coffee:

Exactly my thought. You're sizing your boolits down too much, making them too small. You say they're "around .4519" after sizing and you're running them through a .451+ barrel PLUS you're using a fairly hard boolit. A little fatter and maybe a little softer might well fix the issue.

[Leadforbrains]

I have that same mold. I shoot mine as cast out of 50% range lead and 50% wheel weights. I lube using a homade concoction of sealing wax and supertech marine grease. I have no leading in both my springfield armory pistols.

[Randall]

If you are using the Lee Factory Crimp die it will swage the bullet down sometimes.I used to use one for a match chambered .45 and my accuracy declined and I was getting more leading. I now use only Remington brass in it with cast,the Remington brass is just a little thinner than others and seems to last just as long without using the Lee FCD.

[Leftoverdj]

Leading is undersized bullets or grossly inappropriate alloy. At .your velocities, almost anything will work as lube. Your alloy is reasonable, if a bit harder than I would use. Try some as cast. No need to double coat.

[Char-Gar]

Just for the record. There are plenty of "old cast bullet hands" that have little or no use for LLA. Allot of folks think it is some sort of do all, cure all, miracle lube. Some folks swear by it, and others swear at it. Count me among the latter group.

A good conventional lube on that bullet, the proper temper and sizing diamter and that bullet. won't lead in a good tube.

[Echo]

Check an unsized boolit for chambering - if, when loaded to correct OAL, it will chamber (and I DON'T mean dropping into a dismounted barrel!), then load some up and see if they will lead. TL, dip, however, I believe any old lube will work for the .45, or .38, or whatever, when loaded down to no more than 800 fps.

I really don't believe that crimping will down-size the boolit, since crimping occurs far above the boolit base. Ditto with TC.

So I agree with some of the above - boolit too small for bore.

[tall grass]

And have you got all, and I mean all, of the copper fouling out of the bore? I have found that it is as important as a good bullet to bore fit.

regards Jim

[GabbyM]

How long has the Lee Lube cured before shooting. It needs a couple weeks to dry out or you can get leading. Had an acquaintance figure that out.

[geargnasher]

Ok, thanks again everyone, new things to try. Let me answer some of the above: The bores are clean of all copper and have not swallowed any of the, uh, "other kind" of projectile since I started experimenting with Boolits, already been through the lead-welds-to-copper scenario with the Cimarron Arms .45 Colt and the other mould. The sizer is not custom, it is a brand-new Lee .452", checked sized slugs with two different calibrated Fowler C-clamp mics, it is 1 10/1000th under .452" for some reason. I was hoping that being .0006-8" over bore would be enough for obturation, but as with other aspects of castin/loading I've been drinking "noob" from a firehose with this one! Just when I think I know just a teeny bit about what I'm doing things usually go totally haywire. On to crimp: Using a heavy taper crimp with lee taper crimp/seater die, seating, wiping and crimping in separate operations. I don't think I'm over-crimping, especially with hard boolits, but maybe so. I'm also lubing one night, sizing the next and relubing, and loading within a couple of days, no more than 3 days until they get shot, but they seem fairly dry, not sticky. The load data I'm using averages somewhere in the 780-820 fps range with 6.0 grains Universal (the load I've settled on), who knows with my short-barrel Kimber, but that shouldn't be too fast for the lube.

I'm gonna quit yakking and go try some of your ideas, I would really like to use LLA because of convenience so I'll change that if nothing else works, others have luck as boolit lube and some just spray it to rustproof offshore oil platforms like it was intended, will report back.

Thanks again for helping a newbie
Gear

[Leadforbrains]

Try that boolit lubed and unsized over W231 powder just for a change.

[Recluse]

I would really like to use LLA because of convenience so I'll change that if nothing else works, others have luck as boolit lube and some just spray it to rustproof offshore oil platforms like it was intended, will report back.

Thanks again for helping a newbie
Gear

Few more additional thoughts. . .

Take some 400 or 600 grit emory cloth paper and lap out your Lee sizing die until it throws a minimum of .452. I lapped my out to throw .457 and that made quite a bit of difference in my accuracy with my tumble lube boolits.

Nothing wrong with LLA. As someone else observed, there are two camps--those who like it and those who don't. Ford versus Chevy.

I'm in the camp of those who like it, and I use it a lot--even with traditional lube grooved boolits. But, I mix my LLA half and half with Johnsons Paste Wax that I've melted and let "cook" long enough to get rid of the solvents. I've finally settled on a 1:1 mix of LLA with JPW. I mix them together in my dollar store pot on the pancake griddle, let cool ONLY slightly, then pour through a small funnel back into my LLA bottles. BUT, I do not fill to the top, but instead only a little more than three-fourths to the top. I then add maybe ten-percent mineral spirits, shake well, then put up.

I have to use my heat gun before using this mix--I slowly heat the bottle up, then continue to shake well, then apply when the mix is still warm. I lube, let dry, size, lube once more, let dry and then put up. Has worked VERY well for me for a long time.

:coffee:

[geargnasher]

I just tried "dummying-up" some as-cast unlubed boolits from my last casting session in some unprimed cases and the Kimber won't go to battery half the time with them, they balloon the cases slightly and seem just too large (will chamber just fine if I drop them in the barrel, just too big to make the transition). Had zero feeding/chambering concerns before with sized Boolits. Tried various amounts of crimp, too, then pulled boolits and I can't see that the slight deformation would cause any problems. I roll-crimp the heck out of my .45 Colt with the 250 grainers to keep them from backing out (some did once and I thought they were crimped pretty hard, but there I go learning again!) and have no leading problems with that gun.

Didn't think to enlarge the sizer a bit, but that might be something to try since I will have to size the boolits at least some to get reliable feeding. Maybe I accidentally enraged the Kimber Gods and they're taking out their frustrations on me!

Thanks again for expanding my brain.
Gear

[Recluse]

Holy cow! I just re-read what I said I lapped out my sizer to be!

Sorry, it should have been .4527 and not .457. I had a guy with an awesom mic and lathe skills add another 7/10's from the .452 and small change it was at.

Can't explain it great--me and decimals and lathes and micrometers and tenths/hundreths, thousandths, gazillioniths just don't compute and play well together.

Bottom line, I made my .452 Lee push through sizer just a skosh bigger. [smilie=1:

:coffee

[Timberland]

I have a simmilar leadding isue, hopeully will be reolved by sunday. But if you are death crimping that could be a serious issue (it was for me). Have you tried pulling some loaded boolits and seen if you are dammaging them with crimp? Also over crimp will loosen a boolit, as you are no longer relying on brass tention to hold it inplace thus the boolit is only making contact with the overly sized in mouth of the crimp. What worked for me was lessinig the bell and only removing it with the crimp function of the seating die. Also my lee sizer .452 is variable based on the alloy, harder lead creats fatter while pure bp become very small. Experiment experiment experiment

[243winxb]

Change lube, .452" bullet diameter is ok. Make sure you have 2% tin in the alloy.
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

[geargnasher]

I have a simmilar leadding isue, hopeully will be reolved by sunday. But if you are death crimping that could be a serious issue (it was for me). Have you tried pulling some loaded boolits and seen if you are dammaging them with crimp? Also over crimp will loosen a boolit, as you are no longer relying on brass tention to hold it inplace thus the boolit is only making contact with the overly sized in mouth of the crimp. What worked for me was lessinig the bell and only removing it with the crimp function of the seating die. Also my lee sizer .452 is variable based on the alloy, harder lead creats fatter while pure bp become very small. Experiment experiment experiment

Actually I did get curious and pull a boolit, pretty impressive (no pun intended) indention, but it was coated with lube.

Anyway, I think I've got it. I was stupid when I checked the chambering of unsized dummy rounds in my Kimber, must have gotten the only 3 Speer match cases in my 8,000+ inventory to check this with and they have MUCH thicker walls than most of my other brass. Rechecked with sorted brass and found no problems with the major headstamps so I loaded a few with the charge backed down to 5.8 grains of Universal and the same crimp I was using before, some more with a lighter crimp (your advice, just removed the bell and made sure they would chamber ok) and a few more at 6.0 grains with light crimp.

DRASTICALLY reduced leading, crimp didn't seem to make that much difference in my particular case, but good to know it can be a factor. Only a few faint streaks near the muzzle which pushed out with a tight patch along with some black flakes of lube residue, I got the feeling from visually checking the bore after every shot I could shoot a few more boxes without it getting any worse. So I'm going to conclude that the answer was boolit size after all for this particular barrel and it took almost .002." oversize to get them to seal. Guess I learned again that what works for one barrel doesn't necessarily work for another! Now I gotta try these in the SA....

Thanks again to all for your input, happy :Fire:-ing

Gear