700X handgun loads .38 Spl/.357 Mag

[Dorf]

Has anyone messed around withe DuPont 700X in .38 Spl and .357 Mag? If so what is your opinion and experience ? How fast were you able to drive 150-160 gr. cast boolets? What barrel length were you using? All of course without running into excessive pressures. Any help will be greatly appreciated. TIA Stan.

[Jack Stanley]

I've used three point six grains of 700-X in a thirty-eight case with the bullet weight you describe . Accuracy was generally good , it depended on what bullet I was using . I don't know what velocity was .

Jack

[kawalekm]

HI Stan
I switched to 700X years ago because I found it cleaner than Bullseye for light loads. I load 3.0 grains of 700X with Lyman's 358395 full wadcutter. I shoot that in a six inch Ruger revolver.
Michael

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have used 700x for target loads in the S&W M52 for many years. The bullet must be seated flush with the case mouth for proper feeding. As such it is deep seated. I am using H&G #258 which is flat faced on one end and bevel based. Lube in bottom groove only. With the 700x, 2.5-2.6 grains runs the action reliably and is accurate; groups in one inch at 25 meters. Lube is 50/50 NRA formula..no leading and minimal smoke. In a longer barreled Smith M-28 revolver (6 inch) and a S&W M-14, 2.7-2.8 grains of 700x does better than the lower loading. I have not used the 700x in .357 Mag, but the longer case would need a bit more of it at least for target work. With WC bullets seated out and crimped or heavier bullets the 700x would have to be adjusted accordingly/worked up to get best results in the 38 special in relation to the gun. Same would apply to .357 according to what you are using it for or need it to do. LLS

[Dale53]

Years ago I worked with 700x in both .45 ACP and .38 Special target loads. It was accurate and burned clean. However, 700x has a tendency to bridge in powder measures and I quit using it for this purpose.

I settled on Win 231 and my next buy will be TiteGroup as it measures well and is clean burning and has a great reputation for accuracy.

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

ive used it but not much anymore. Its not a bad powder but the problem is metering. It does not meter well. I can excuse that in a powder thats a bit slower burning like unique but when a guy is only putting 2 grains of powder in a case and its varying a half a grain thats a big difference. If your loading on a single stage press and weighting every charge it can give real good accuracy.

[smkummer]

Metering is the only issue with this powder out of a Lee auto disk. For plus P, add about .3 grains.

[Dorf]

Ok and thx to one and all. Looks like everyone is using 700X for light target work in medium to long barrels. I'm using a 2" .357 Snubbie and am trying to build up a load that will get up to a bit over 900 fps in .38 Spl brass with the 150 gr. cast swc. Since I have a nearly full 12# keg or 700X, I was hoping to find a good use for it. I have other powders available but not in the quantity of the 700X and in view of the fact that the loads will be run thru a .357, +P+ .38 Spl loads are not a problem. I can use Unique and 2400 to get the velocity range but they don't seem to burn quite as cleanly as the 700X does -- due to the short barrel? :confused: TIA Stan

[kawalekm]

Since metering problems were brought up, I thought I'd mention the habit I've developed. I load all my cartridges by measure (RCBS), but I include a certain routine to insure consistancy.

As I raise the level to it's lowest position (charge loading), I tap the handle three times to vibrate the whole measure. I then raise the lever to it highest position (charge dispensing) and tap thrice again. I always charge cases separately and inspect all charged cases at the same time under strong light. I have never yet spotted a single instance of bridging when charging powder with this stratage. Hope that will work for you.
Michael

[ebner glocken]

I've used 3.0 grains of it in a .38 case with 147gr WCs....DEWC or HBWCs. Decent accuracy but wouldn't outshoot 2.7 of bullseye or a comparable load with ww 231. I did not experience any bridging or feeding problems of any kind with 700x......if you would like to speak of 800x now that would be a different story.

Ebner

[Dorf]

Re: the "bridging problem"-- I haven't noticed any thing in that direction either. I use an old Lyman powder measure with a "knocker", charge each case and seat bullets at the same time. Also I weigh every 5th charge. No problems -- so far.[smilie=1:

[EMC45]

Meters like crap! I've burned a bunch though. I started with 700X. The cheapest on the shelf when I started and it could be used for all the handguns I had then.

[shooting on a shoestring]

All the above is true but......I've burned a couple of pounds and found that it is not position sensitive as far as my chronograph can measure. Also, my notes show that it shot under 2" using 358156, and 358091 from my 6" Model 19, with single digit SDEVs for 5 shot group velocities, using 4.5 to 5.1 grains in .357 cases. And for .38 loads 3.4 to 4.2 grains, again single digit SDEVs, 2 inch groups.

My theory is the chunky grains that don't meter well, do ignite easy. The chronograph says the swings in powder charge don't translate into swings in velocity, and the groups don't seem to care either.

I've had much worse showings in SDEV with HS6 and HP38, which do meter evenly, but are very position sensitive.

Now days, I pretty much just burn Bullseye, Herco and 2400 in my revolvers and live happily everafter. Although I'd shoot 700-X if I found a decent deal on a jug.

[shooterg]

Shot a buncha Lee 158 tumble lubes with 3.0 grains , all loaded on a Square Deal. Usually just shoot the plate rack in the back yard, but plenty accurate enough for that ! No bridging problems - yet. Shouldna said that !

[waksupi]

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[bowhunter]

:redneck:I have no problem with metering, but i do use belding and mull measures. 700x is one of the most accurate powders in my 38's and 45's acp

[35remington]

I don't doubt "tap'n and wack'n" the measure dispenses 700X or any large flake powder more uniformly......except that the Lee Pro Auto Disk I use doesn't have a knocker, it's an extra step on the Lee Classic Turret to whack by hand, and tapping the measure introduces extra variability. So I don't use any large flake powder in charges below 3.5 grains in the Lee Pro Auto Disk.

I see it as an issue with the caviity being too small for the size and shape of the flakes, primarily.

And yes, agreed, the large flake powders when so dispensed by tap'n and wack'n may have a little more variability in weight, but do indeed show minimal velocity variation, even compared to powders that meter better. I use the same argument to justify using Red Dot in the 45 ACP, but only in charges of 4 grains and above so I don't have to do the tap and whack routine. 700X, same thing.

So the powder bridging of 700X and possible squib loading is something for the new users to be aware of when loading light charges of large flake powders in some measures. Once you're aware, you can do something about it.

[Dale53]

My experience with 700X and bridging have been uniformly bad. The problem has been correctly assessed (cavities too small for the powder type) but there is one other factor. I put 700X under high magnification and learned that it was not simply large flakes, but the edges looked like a lace doily under magnification. The edges just seemed to "interlock" and aggravate the problem. I quit using it...

There are too many powders available without those problems to saddle myself with THAT for little gain.

Dale53

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi.
I am referring to Pb bullets here,
38 loads:
158 Kieth style swc Lyman 3.2 grs in a N frame Smith, 3.8 grs. in a Ruger single action & a Redhawk
160gr gc swc REI mold 3grs in the Smith, 3.6grs. in the 2 Rugers.
180 gr gc sil. SECO mould 2.5 in the Smith , & 3.2 in the 2 Rugers.
357 loads
158 gr. 4grs in the Smith, 5.4 grs in the 2 Rugers.
160 gr gc 4 grs, in the smith, & 5.4 in the 2 rugers,
180 gr gc 4grs in the 2 Rugers
These loads are hot for this powder.
Found if I went hotter in the Smith cases would stick.
Any hotter and got leading as well.
Loads in the Rugers were as hot as I dared in the W/ this Powder.[smilie=1:
Did get some powder bridging from time to time so developed a habit of multiple taps on the powder measure.:Fire:

[9.3X62AL]

Zero experience (so far) with 700-X, but I do have a one-pounder in the powder cabinet that came in with a bunch of other powders a while back--thanks for the info, folks.

800-X is a PITA through the RCBS Duo-Measure, and I tried both cylinders. Same story with that (serial expletives deleted) #7 that Bartlett once sold. Other than Lee Spoons, the powder measure has likely not been built or designed that will handle that stuff. It does measure pretty closely with the Lee Spoons, though--and is as described by Jeff, a close performance approximation to AA-7.

[Four Fingers of Death]

ive used it but not much anymore. Its not a bad powder but the problem is metering. It does not meter well. I can excuse that in a powder thats a bit slower burning like unique but when a guy is only putting 2 grains of powder in a case and its varying a half a grain thats a big difference. If your loading on a single stage press and weighting every charge it can give real good accuracy.

Thats the only problem I had with it.

[John Van Gelder]

Back in the 60s when I was living back East, I used a lot of 700X, my load of choice was 4.5 gr. in a .38 spl. case, with the 358429 bullet, seated and crimped at the groove. Fired through my 4 5/8" Blackhawk, these loads worked very well on woodchucks, which pound for pound are pretty durable animals.

I found this load in an old manual that indicated that charge with the 358429 bullet would produce 900-950 fps. I had not used any 700X for quite some time, actually about 40 years. During the component shortage, I found a can at one of the local shops and bought it, about two years ago. With high hopes of duplicating my old load I produced a box of the 170/4.5 loads, and was a bit disappointed, the results seemed some what erratic.

I ran a number of these loads through my GP 100 and my old Mod 28. Just did not seem to be as accurate as the loads from 40 years ago, that could be a result of 40 years of ageing as well..:)

Hodgdon lists 5.2 gr., of 700X in a .357 case under a 170 gr. jacketed bullet for 1107 fps and 32.2K psi.

[bedbugbilly]

When I couldn't get Bulls Eye or Red Dot, I picked up a pound of 700X as that was all I could find. Powder supply is mor consistent now so it still sits on the shelf. The salesman at the LGS that I have dealt with for years recommended it as he was using it in his reloads - but - the one thing he cautioned on was the metering. Interesting thread - nice to read posts on that particular powder from those who have used it.

[Blackwater]

I've used quite a bit of it, and found early on that through my old Ohaus powder measure, it dropped pretty uniform charges if after filling the hopper, I'd cup the hopper in my left hand, and tap it smartly with my right a number of times, it'd settle in the hopper. When it quit settling, I'd dump a few charges and weigh them, and adjust as needed. Then it did pretty well as to consistency. Of course, I always used the .30 cal. drop tube. Using the .22 cal. drop tube allows bridging MUCH more readily, and so I just quit using that one and always put the .30 cal. in, and no further problems. FWIW?

[Mauser48]

I have started doing this myself for my gp100. I use 3.4 grains of 700x with a 158 grain lswc. That is a max charge for .38 but since im shooting in a 357 im not worried about it. It doesnt meter great but better than I expected. About +- .2 grains. Very accurate and light recoil. Im using a light roll crimp. I do get a fair amount of un burnt powder. I would say go for it its a lot of fun. I shoot them from 35-100 yards and they hit fairly hard for such a light load. Have fun!

[scattershot]

I have some 700x that's just been sitting around, so I thought I'd try it in .357. I loaded 100 rounds using the XTREME 158 grain SWC and 5.0 grains. It metered very well through my Dillon 500, and I was surprised how clean burning it was. This load clocks at around 1000 fps, and is very pleasant to shoot. It didn't seem particularly accurate, but it could have been me. I plan to try it again soon, so we'll see.

[John Van Gelder]

I have been loading for 50+ years, and some of my equipment went out of "print" several years ago. I have an old Hollywood powder measure, that I get good consistency with large flake powder. I just ran 50 charges (700X), weighing each one and I had less than 1/10 grain variation. A lot of the powders that have been around for many years are different now. Supposedly, "new and improved". There are a lot of variables, and as anyone who has been "rolling" their own for any appreciable time, knows that if you are trying for real accuracy, you need to sort your brass, check the case length, gauge flash holes, weight each bullet, and each individual charge. Then of course if you are using a revolver, check bore diameter, and throat diameter.

Having said all of that, I feel that, just standing and shooting a large rocks on the other side of the canyon, I get more hits with Hodgdon Clays than with a commensurate charge of 700 X. Far from a scientific testing method, possibly varying the charge a few tenths of a grain one way or the other could make a significant difference.

I am still thinking that over the intervening 40 years since I used any 700X that the formula may have changed slightly and I have just not found the charge that gives the best result with my bullets/gun combination.

[Blackwater]

How clean a powder burns is usually a function of what pressure level it's used at. Higher pressures yield cleaner burning. Higher pressures also equal hotter temp of burn, so it makes sense that upping pressure, to a reasonable point, of course, yields cleaner burning because hotter temps naturally tend to burn whatever ash is produced more fully. Very simple, really. So while there are powders that tend to burn "cleaner" than some others, getting really clean burns may well depend more on the pressure any given powder wants to burn at to produce cleaner loads than it does on any specific powder. When I hear people speak of "dirty" powders, I usually just smile and think to myself, "Too light a load. Up the charge with that powder and see what happens." Today, with many wanting as many charges per pound of powder as they can get, and light loads being often preferred for "practice," we might very well shoot a bit fewer, heavier loads if we're concerned about our loads being "clean burning." Like Einstein said, it's really all "relative," and mostly, it's relative to the pressures your loads are working at.

[John Van Gelder]

Blackwater

Exactly, it takes a bit of experimentation to find the right bullet/powder combination that produces a good clean burning load which in turn will be more uniformly accurate. When using small "doses" of fast burning powder, a determining factor in consistency is the location of the powder in the case. You can see this during a chronograph session, if you elevate the gun before firing the velocities are higher, point the muzzled down first then the velocity will be lower. This is a place where the bulkier powders work well, that and finding the point where you have achieved a good clean burn.

[therealhitman]

I am currently using 700X only for light loads in .38s (158 SWC @ 3.2 grs) and .45 Colt (250 FRN @ 5.8 grs). The metering discrepancies of .2-.3 grs that my Dillons routinely show with this powder mean less variation in those bigger cases (I am assuming). Gave up on using it in 9mms and 45acp and went with WSF (124 CN @ 3.4) and WST (185 SWC @ 5.2) respectively, and have had consistent and clean burning results from these perfectly metering propellants. When my current stock of 700X is gone (if I outlast it) I will probably change back to Bullseye, or seek a cleaner alternative among the newer powders.

[Lead Fred]

I use 800x for the 38 and 45

[John Van Gelder]

A powder that I use quite a bit for .38s is Hodgdon Clays, a load that works well is 3.5 gr, with cast 160-170 gr. bullets burns clean, seems to be very accurate. But there was some experimenting to get to a clean burning load.

[Jeff82]

I currently use 700X for my 38-special loads. I haven't experienced metering problems in my RCBS Uniflow measure. I've found it to be a good powder, especially in my M-36 snubnose revolver. Recoil is noticeably more harsh than that of slower burning powders I've used such as IMR-SR7625 and Universal, either of which I'd prefer in my S&W Model-14. That said, I use 700X for all of my 38-Special cartridges for the sake of simplicity. It's probably the cleanest burning powder I've used.

[John Van Gelder]

Jeff82

What load gives you the best accuracy?

[Jeff82]

John,

For 38-Special I use 3.3 grains of 700x, regular primers and a Lee RNFP 158 Grain bullet with 4.0% antimony and 2.0% lead (bhn of 11) with a diameter of 0.358. I've alternatively used 4.0 grains of IMR-SR-7625. The accuracy is comparable between the two loadings, but the velocity through my snubnose Model-36 improves noticeably, and 700X burns more cleanly. For 38 Special +P loadings I usually shoot 4.3 grains of SR-7625 and 3.6 grains of 700X. These are in the lower end of +P range, and the accuracy is comparable. I think that at 25 yard pistol ranges the bullet diameter seems to have more impact on accuracy than most other factors. I've found that the 38-Special cartridge is very forgiving, and shoot a wide range of bullets and powders well.

357-Magnum is at the other end of the scale. I use it primarily for 100-yard carbine shooting. It's very particular about what it shoots well. My standard loading is 6.1 grains of SR-7625 with a Lee RNFP 158-grain bullet using a composition of 8.0% antimony and about 2.5% tin with a diameter of 0.359. It took me about two years to develop that load, and I think I experienced about every problem conceivable trying to get decent results. The plain based Lee bullet shoots well at around 1,100 fps, which is what this loading clocks out at. However, installing a plain base gas check will increase accuracy by about three-percent. I usually don't want to go to the trouble of making and installing gas check though.

--Jeff

[John Van Gelder]

Reloading is always a work in progress. I usually carry one round of .38 spl in my .357, for a number of reasons, the other five are 173 gr. 358429 bullets over maximum .357 loads. I have regular dealings with bears and mt. lions, in my yard and around the horse barn. I had a experience with one cat, I had been looking for small game, and walked into a thicket right up on a mt. lion, all I had was .38 wadcutters, it did not end well for the lion. Since then even my .38s are at the upper end.